News Chinese semiconductor production equipment makers set sales records

[Admin]

Sales of China-based makers of chipmaking tools AMEC, Naura, and ACM Research expect record sales in 2024 amid curbs for Western companies to supply to China.

Chinese semiconductor production equipment makers set sales records : Read more

 

[toffty]

What's missing here is the transistor size of the hardware. From some quick googling, it looks like they're in the teens. So they are far behind leading edge but certainly fine for things like automotive outside of self-driving hardware and toys/low priced gadgets

 

[Robert Castellano]

The irony here is that U.S. sanctions, instead of stopping Chinese expansion has actually fostered the growth of the Chinese equipment industry. I have written a dozen articles on this topic. You can read my latest which was published in my column on Substack. In fact, for 3 quarters of 2024 vs 2023, Chinese equipment companies grew an average of 37.1% compared to just 2.9% for non-Chinese companies (global revenues not just sales to China).

"Gina Raimondo Admits China Sanctions a “Fool’s Errand” After 4 Years of Failure but Her Boss Doesn’t Agree"​

 

[TCA_ChinChin]

What's missing here is the transistor size of the hardware. From some quick googling, it looks like they're in the teens. So they are far behind leading edge but certainly fine for things like automotive outside of self-driving hardware and toys/low priced gadgets

They seem roughly a decade behind, but things will only get harder for them since a decade ago is when node development + fab costs started getting increasingly harder for everyone else.

 

[DalaiLamar]

So they are so far behind leading edge? They still can't thank the US enough.

 

[nashi]

Haha. You googling sucks they are not far behind making 2 nano of their own machines.

 

[pug_s]

The irony here is that U.S. sanctions, instead of stopping Chinese expansion has actually fostered the growth of the Chinese equipment industry. I have written a dozen articles on this topic. You can read my latest which was published in my column on Substack. In fact, for 3 quarters of 2024 vs 2023, Chinese equipment companies grew an average of 37.1% compared to just 2.9% for non-Chinese companies (global revenues not just sales to China).

"Gina Raimondo Admits China Sanctions a “Fool’s Errand” After 4 Years of Failure but Her Boss Doesn’t Agree"​

Agreed, it is the same notion that about 10 years ago people would laugh about Chinese car industry would dominate the world today. I'm pretty sure that 10 years from now Chinese semiconductor industry would be kind of competitive to non-Chinese ones. Because of generous subsidies in R&D from the Chinese government, I am sure that we will read news about innovation that would even leapfrog from western technology like the recent news about the Chinese Deepseek AI model. Even Gina Raimondo sees the writing on the wall.

 

[OldAnalogWorld]

Agreed, it is the same notion that about 10 years ago people would laugh about Chinese car industry would dominate the world today.

Aren't these the same Chinese cars whose engine life is several times shorter than that of German cars, and whose prices are only 1.5 times lower? Aren't these the same ones where the bodies are made of foil, not durable metal, and the suspension sucks? And where do these bodies, like the wiring, start to rot after 2-3 years? It was about the same with Japanese cars 25-30 years ago - they were significantly inferior in quality to German ones. As soon as the quality levels out, the prices become the same, unless someone gives them subsidies. Guess in 3 tries who gives subsidies to Chinese manufacturers? Taxpayers at the instigation of the CPC... And this is not a market economy. And therefore, increased duties on their products are justified. After all, this is not fair market competition, where they will lose miserably even with a much cheaper labor force, because their products are of lower quality.

The situation is roughly the same with the IT sector now - where there was advanced Western equipment and merciless exploitation of cheap Asian workers, the Chinese temporarily won in "market" conditions. As soon as they were blocked from accessing Western technologies, they immediately deflated like a punctured balloon. After all, the balloon has no strong shell, i.e. a wide layer of talented people capable of making local equipment using the most advanced, global, technologies.

If there are no subsidies (but this is now a sad feature and the US - a slippery slope to socialism), then those who were ahead and did not forget about supporting and developing advanced human capital - the main resource of any country - win. Without it - there is nothing.

 

[pug_s]

Aren't these the same Chinese cars whose engine life is several times shorter than that of German cars, and whose prices are only 1.5 times lower? Aren't these the same ones where the bodies are made of foil, not durable metal, and the suspension sucks? And where do these bodies, like the wiring, start to rot after 2-3 years? It was about the same with Japanese cars 25-30 years ago - they were significantly inferior in quality to German ones. As soon as the quality levels out, the prices become the same, unless someone gives them subsidies. Guess in 3 tries who gives subsidies to Chinese manufacturers? Taxpayers at the instigation of the CPC... And this is not a market economy. And therefore, increased duties on their products are justified. After all, this is not fair market competition, where they will lose miserably even with a much cheaper labor force, because their products are of lower quality.

The situation is roughly the same with the IT sector now - where there was advanced Western equipment and merciless exploitation of cheap Asian workers, the Chinese temporarily won in "market" conditions. As soon as they were blocked from accessing Western technologies, they immediately deflated like a punctured balloon. After all, the balloon has no strong shell, i.e. a wide layer of talented people capable of making local equipment using the most advanced, global, technologies.

If there are no subsidies (but this is now a sad feature and the US - a slippery slope to socialism), then those who were ahead and did not forget about supporting and developing advanced human capital - the main resource of any country - win. Without it - there is nothing.

You are probably talking about Chinese cars 10 years ago having those issues. Considering that US is sanctioning the heck out of Chinese companies, why wouldn't the Chinese government do nothing and not subsitize R&D in its tech sector?

 

[OldAnalogWorld]

You are probably talking about Chinese cars 10 years ago having those issues

No, I wrote specifically about modern Chinese. They are not even close to German ones, given that the quality of German cars has also dropped significantly over the past 30 years.

Considering that US is sanctioning the heck out of Chinese companies, why wouldn't the Chinese government do nothing and not subsitize R&D in its tech sector?

Subsidies always lead to inefficient market solutions and products. Because a capitalist (like a bank that thoughtlessly gives loans for depositors' money and knows that it will always be saved by the central bank, because it is, you see, "too big to fail" - because the social consequences of ruined depositors are too great, up to lynching of bankers) who understands that he always has insurance from the authorities at the expense of taxpayers is not interested in adopting optimal market strategies and creating optimal quality products. Especially when his products are created by super-cheap workers, for the simple reason that the authorities promote such cheap wages and suppress the creation of effective trade unions. And trade unions and civil activists originating from there lead to a sharp political struggle for power, which is ultimately extremely dangerous for the ruling kleptocratic stratum in authoritarian and totalitarian countries.

Therefore, in countries such as China, Russia, Iran, etc. - trade unions are simply a corrupt screen, a false facade, to create the appearance of opportunities for workers to defend their rights. And naturally there is no independent judicial system (and prosecutors) elected by the population. Which leads to the complete illegitimacy of the judicial system in the eyes of the adequate (well-educated) part of the population. Judges and prosecutors are appointed by the executive branch of power, which leads to a complete violation of the separation branches of powers.

Therefore, the only way to limit such anti-market activity in a number of authoritarian and totalitarian states that deliberately subsidize some segments of activity that are beneficial to them is customs barriers in the form of duties and a complete blocking of the supply of intellectual property to them, as well as the most advanced means of production of means of production. This evens out the imbalance between foreign government subsidies, cheap labor, intellectual property theft there and expensive ones here, because local workers exist in a more civilized and controlled environment, not under the power of kleptocratic autocrats or complete totalitarians.

Which side of the scale the US, Europe and China are on today - you will have to decide for yourself.