Citing National Security Concerns, US Stops Exports to Chinese DRAM Maker

[Guest]

The U.S. Department of Commerce announced yesterday that U.S. companies will no longer be allowed to export goods to a DRAM maker called Fujian Jinhua Integrated Circuit Company.

Citing National Security Concerns, US Stops Exports to Chinese DRAM Maker : Read more

 

[Brian_R170]

I guess RAM prices aren't coming down any time soon.

 

[bit_user]

This seems like too little, too late.

Unless you have standing to sue, there doesn't seem to be much one can do about industrial espionage, after the fact.

 

[Zaporro]

Using national security again as excuse to discriminate other companies and countries...

 

[stdragon]

Using national security again as excuse to discriminate other companies and countries...

That in fact, is the role of a sovereign state to look after its own interests. Do they not teach history and civics when you were in school?! Yes, nations have borders, and their own laws!

 

[stdragon]

https://www.rt.com/news/442625-china-prepares-war-us/

 

[kenjitamura]

Using national security again as excuse to discriminate other companies and countries...

That in fact, is the role of a sovereign state to look after its own interests. Do they not teach history and civics when you were in school?! Yes, nations have borders, and their own laws!

Kind of hard to feel bad for a company that was so engrossed in the thought of increasing its profits it was willing to ignore potential American workers to expand into a country that didn't really have the concept of intellectual property and had a known history of IP infringement.

This outcome for the company should have been expected and is in my opinion deserved. And now it's dragging down our relations with a potential future super power in its attempt to protect its own interests which further throws the average American under the bus.

 

[stdragon]

Using national security again as excuse to discriminate other companies and countries...

That in fact, is the role of a sovereign state to look after its own interests. Do they not teach history and civics when you were in school?! Yes, nations have borders, and their own laws!

Kind of hard to feel bad for a company that was so engrossed in the thought of increasing its profits it was willing to ignore potential American workers to expand into a country that didn't really have the concept of intellectual property and had a known history of IP infringement.

This outcome for the company should have been expected and is in my opinion deserved. And now it's dragging down our relations with a potential future super power in its attempt to protect its own interests which further throws the average American under the bus.

The Cold War never really ended. Rather, it was on hiatus.

I don't condone war, but all signs point to a kenetic conflict between China, Russia, US/Europe, and India. I'm not talking about the proxy wars in the ME, rather major naval conflict if not a limited thermonuclear exchange to military assets. Anything beyond that and you can kiss everything you know and love goodbye.

It's sad. There's no need for any of this as it's a giant waste of resources and a wrong step in human endeavor. But at the day nations must do what they must to protect their own self interests. Hopefully rationality prevails and we can continue to live in a world of peace. But to expect as such would be folly and shrouded in naivety.

 

[johnbl]

pretty weak argument calling it a national security issue. Military= national security. The military uses computers, computers use RAM. RAM manufacture is a national security issue.

you could say that about anything the military needs. Military= national security, military uses green paint. Green paint manufacture is a national security issue. LOL

they use toilet paper also.

 

[stdragon]

Just be thankful we're not in a period of wartime as enacted by congress. At that point, quite literally everything is national security issue, from food, metals, to other natural resources such as rubber (tires). Please see the history of WW2.

During the Cold War, it wasn't nearly as bad, but yeah, national security against espionage was far more heightened.

 

[bit_user]

https://www.rt.com/news/442625-china-prepares-war-us/

Oh man. Russia Today? I seriously wouldn't trust anything they write.

Free press doesn't exist in Russia. Everything from Russian media outlets is basically in line with the Kremlin's strategic interests.

 

[bit_user]

Using national security again as excuse to discriminate other companies and countries...

Wow. Can of worms = open.

This sort of muddles together three different issues.

First, there's the issue of industrial espionage. If true, then it's certainly in the aggrieved country's right to seek remediation and injunctions against the perpetrator. Now, the normal way to do this would probably be to bring a court case through the WTO, which basically exists as a sort of trade-related dispute resolution mechanism. However, that takes time and Micron might not feel they have quite the level of evidence needed to win such a case.

Second, there's the issue of economic protectionism. As @stdragon says, it's within any country's right to control its trade with other countries (or entities therein), for any reason. However, actions on this front have the potential to jeopardize trading relationships. IMO, the important thing is to have clear policies and behave consistently. That can build trust to the point that others are willing to build trading relationships with you.

Finally, there's the issue of using national security as the pretext for taking these actions. I think it's a stretch to equate economic well-being with national security, but the likely reason for acting under this rubric is due to details of current US law constraining what the Executive branch can do on its own.

I don't think there's a single "right" answer, as to what should be done. It's very much a matter of political and economic philosophy. The one thing we can say for sure is that it's well accepted that China has long practiced industrial espionage and doesn't appear to be changing its ways.

I just doubt they're so dependent on US suppliers that this embargo will slow them down for long.

I wonder if a better approach would be to form a large coalition, with other developed countries, and all sanction Chinese trade until they drop state sponsored industrial espionage and start prosecuting non-state perpetrators of it.

 

[stdragon]

Nothing will change with China via international policies. The industrial espionage is state sponsored, and they don't care about anything except money. In fact, the way they treat their own local environment is abhorrent. You'd think those in charge would want clean air and water for themselves. Well, they do, but their government is such a corrupt and uncontrollable "beast" as nothing can be done short of drastic policies.

China has been going through its form of industrial revolution, but until there's a sense of federalism where people have the liberty to effect local public policies (ie, democracy), again, I don't see much positive change happening.

If there's one thing worth noting however, is that China is, and has always been, it's own worst enemy as it has been for thousands of years. For many, the current government in charge (CCP), is nothing more than another dynasty. It too could very well flounder when it all (economically) falls apart. Hopefully not, because the world truly is better with China actively participating in the production of goods and services in the world. Humanity all benefits, but not if it goes counter-productive to the security and sovereignty of other nations in the world.

Essentially, there's no need to be aggressive towards China. But, The West needs to remain steadfast and resolute in not being taken advantage of either however China stands to remain unwavering. It will take courage and perseverance both now and with any future administration in power.

 

[johnbl]

I think micron filed a lawsuit in china and lost. they filed one in the US and it is still pending.
I don't know what the infrengement was, I could not find the info. micron complaint to the government and they are trying to help them out by preventing the sale of semiconductor fab machines from the usa to the company in china.
china will just get them sold to another company and then transfered to the blocked company.

some patents are pretty bogus. ie patent on a client talking to a server, clicking on a map to bring up info, using a shopping cart to by more than one item at a time.

Using national security again as excuse to discriminate other companies and countries...

Wow. Can of worms = open.

This sort of muddles together three different issues.

First, there's the issue of industrial espionage. If true, then it's certainly in the aggrieved country's right to seek remediation and injunctions against the perpetrator. Now, the normal way to do this would probably be to bring a court case through the WTO, which basically exists as a sort of trade-related dispute resolution mechanism. However, that takes time and Micron might not feel they have quite the level of evidence needed to win such a case.

Second, there's the issue of economic protectionism. As @stdragon says, it's within any country's right to control its trade with other countries (or entities therein), for any reason. However, actions on this front have the potential to jeopardize trading relationships. IMO, the important thing is to have clear policies and behave consistently. That can build trust to the point that others are willing to build trading relationships with you.

Finally, there's the issue of using national security as the pretext for taking these actions. I think it's a stretch to equate economic well-being with national security, but the likely reason for acting under this rubric is due to details of current US law constraining what the Executive branch can do on its own.

I don't think there's a single "right" answer, as to what should be done. It's very much a matter of political and economic philosophy. The one thing we can say for sure is that it's well accepted that China has long practiced industrial espionage and doesn't appear to be changing its ways.

I just doubt they're so dependent on US suppliers that this embargo will slow them down for long.

I wonder if a better approach would be to form a large coalition, with other developed countries, and all sanction Chinese trade until they drop state sponsored industrial espionage and start prosecuting non-state perpetrators of it.

 

[watchreber]

A Chinese company poses a "risk" to national interests. The article then assumes the guilt of the company with it's own reasons to justify the parts ban.

Just like Irans nuclear weapons capability, as in technologically capable of developing nuclear weapons if they wanted, was reason enough to punish them while US stooges debated if Iran should be making them with no evidence of doing so.

Now people argue about patent and ip theft without knowing defining the word risk. Risk as in a possibility to to undertake action in the future, not actions of the past which would include ip theft and violations of patents, or in the case of ZTE ban, double dealing to sanctioned countries.

Does this ban reduce a significant risk to national security? And at what cost? Any company will concerned about reliance on US semiconductors and will want some eggs put away in other baskets as soon as possible.

 

[bit_user]

Just like Irans nuclear weapons capability,

Oh dear. Let's please not get into a debate over Iran. I think you can make your point just fine without referencing it.

 

[bit_user]

Essentially, there's no need to be aggressive towards China. But, The West needs to remain steadfast and resolute in not being taken advantage of either however China stands to remain unwavering. It will take courage and perseverance both now and with any future administration in power.

To get China's attention, you need one thing: size. Even the US is not big enough to do it, alone. I think a whole consortium of developed countries, from South Korea and Japan to Germany and the UK needs to get serious with China about IP theft.

I also wouldn't try to do this publicly, or else you'll put China in a position where it feels it can't back down. That's why I'm not optimistic about the current situation with US trade sanctions. I'm expecting an eventual, mutual climb-down on tariffs, after both countries have taken a few bruises, but without any substantial concessions.

 

[bit_user]

I think micron filed a lawsuit in china and lost. they filed one in the US and it is still pending.
I don't know what the infrengement was, I could not find the info. micron complaint to the government and they are trying to help them out by preventing the sale of semiconductor fab machines from the usa to the company in china.
china will just get them sold to another company and then transfered to the blocked company.

some patents are pretty bogus. ie patent on a client talking to a server, clicking on a map to bring up info, using a shopping cart to by more than one item at a time.

This is allegedly about trade secrets - not patents. Patents are in the public domain, whereas trade secrets are... secret. While some patents are definitely bogus, I think we can all agree there are certain details about things like semiconductor manufacturing that required significant investment to learn and are needed in order for the business to function at its current level. If a competitor steals and uses this information, it can pose a competitive threat without having invested in making those discoveries for itself, thereby enabling it to offer competing product at lower cost.

 

[johnbl]

I agree about the trade secrets. china clearly aquires trade secrets,
Set up a company in canada then come to the US and hire a engineer as a consultant and get info on US products.
it works and even finding out what not to do is useful and can save a lot of effort.

These problems are hard to prove, so you loose in court. Does that make it a national security issue?
does blocking one company fix the problem. I would say no. it is their govenment that is doing this, they will just arange another company to get the products they need and transfer them. or they just rename the company.

happens with other countries too. IE France buying a Boeing jet, taking it apart to save time making their airbus jets.
bet it saved a lot in engineering costs.

I think micron filed a lawsuit in china and lost. they filed one in the US and it is still pending.
I don't know what the infrengement was, I could not find the info. micron complaint to the government and they are trying to help them out by preventing the sale of semiconductor fab machines from the usa to the company in china.
china will just get them sold to another company and then transfered to the blocked company.

some patents are pretty bogus. ie patent on a client talking to a server, clicking on a map to bring up info, using a shopping cart to by more than one item at a time.

This is allegedly about trade secrets - not patents. Patents are in the public domain, whereas trade secrets are... secret. While some patents are definitely bogus, I think we can all agree there are certain details about things like semiconductor manufacturing that required significant investment to learn and are needed in order for the business to function at its current level. If a competitor steals and uses this information, it can pose a competitive threat without having invested in making those discoveries for itself, thereby enabling it to offer competing product at lower cost.

 

[stdragon]

That's why I'm not optimistic about the current situation with US trade sanctions. I'm expecting an eventual, mutual climb-down on tariffs, after both countries have taken a few bruises, but without any substantial concessions.

China is in major debt, and the way to squeeze China to negotiate is via tariffs. It forces China to devalue the Yuan so as to keep the exports going. If they're too expensive for the consumer, they would buy less. So yeah, moving volume is important to them. At least, that's the theory (was never a stated goal).

Well, after the rumored meeting this morning between Trump and Xi, the Yuan traded higher. Then once that rumor was dispelled and not being entirely correct, it got slammed again. Meaning, it's no longer a theory, but factually proven that tariffs can be used to bring China to the negotiating table.

China is vulnerable. They know it, we know it, now it's time to start making a deal that's in everyone's mutual interests. Exactly how that will come about? Time will tell. You never know with Trump. When everyone else "zigs", he "zags".

 

[bit_user]

That's why I'm not optimistic about the current situation with US trade sanctions. I'm expecting an eventual, mutual climb-down on tariffs, after both countries have taken a few bruises, but without any substantial concessions.

China is in major debt, and the way to squeeze China to negotiate is via tariffs. It forces China to devalue the Yuan so as to keep the exports going. If they're too expensive for the consumer, they would buy less. So yeah, moving volume is important to them. At least, that's the theory (was never a stated goal).

They have a debt problem, but it's domestic - not foreign.

The downside with the current approach is that it discounts both their pride and their desire not to set a precedent for how to force them to do something. I think a more efficient way to get them to do something is to make a bigger and more credible threat, out of the public eye. The way to make it more credible is to do something that's not zero-sum, like a bilateral trade war would be. China knows that tariffs will inflict a lot of pain on US companies and consumers, and is probably betting that we won't be able to sustain the 25% level for long (while 10% can basically get washed out by currency fluctuations).

So, the way to do something that's both bigger and more credible is to assemble a larger block and impose trade sanctions that are less painful to individual members, but that add up to quite a lot of pain on China. However, I don't know if we'll find willing partners, after the hostile treatment we've recently shown to the countries I mentioned.

 

[theyeti87]

Using national security again as excuse to discriminate other companies and countries...

That in fact, is the role of a sovereign state to look after its own interests. Do they not teach history and civics when you were in school?! Yes, nations have borders, and their own laws!

No, they don't teach civics is most school districts. Something to do with an underfunded education system in the US.

 

[JamesSneed]

Just be thankful we're not in a period of wartime as enacted by congress. At that point, quite literally everything is national security issue, from food, metals, to other natural resources such as rubber (tires). Please see the history of WW2.

During the Cold War, it wasn't nearly as bad, but yeah, national security against espionage was far more heightened.

I hope we don't go there in my lifetime. I remember hearing stories from grandparents about having rationing stamps that even if you had the money you couldn't buy stuff unless you had the stamps. They used to talk about only getting one stamp for a pair of shoes per year with exceptions for growing kids. Most families could eat meat and cheeses once maybe twice a week because that is all the stamps they had. Pretty crazy times.

 

[s1mon7]

I think such actions will just push China to obtain complete technology independence even faster.

 

[SkyBill40]

Ahh, yes. This again. I remember partaking in the discussion about their activities back in a story from November 2018. I'm not venturing down that road again even though what was clear then is clear now: Industrial espionage is nothing more than maintaining the status quo for tech in China.