cloning Horobi

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Horobi:
Flying
Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, destroy
that creature.

Suppose I play the spell "clone" (copies any target creature) - or, for
that matter, any other permanent targetting a creature - what happens
when that spell resolves? Is the target still around, and if not, does
the spell resolve succesfully? I guess my question boils down to the
exact meaning of Horobi's text. Does it mean 'after a spell resolves
targetting a creature destroy that creature' or does it mean 'if a
spell is played targetting a creature put a new effect on top of the
stack above that spell which destroyes that creature'

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Monte Gardner wrote:

> Horobi:
> Flying
> Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, destroy
> that creature.
>
> Suppose I play the spell "clone" (copies any target creature)

But Clone *doesn't* copy a target creature. Clone doesn't target anything.

Clone
Creature - Clone
0/0:
As Clone comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do,
Clone comes into play as a copy of that creature.

See? No target.

> - or, for
> that matter, any other permanent targetting a creature -

Find me any permanent spell (not an ability on a permanent) that targets
anything and you win a no-prize. There are no such cards.

> what happens
> when that spell resolves? Is the target still around, and if not, does
> the spell resolve succesfully? I guess my question boils down to the
> exact meaning of Horobi's text. Does it mean 'after a spell resolves
> targetting a creature destroy that creature' or does it mean 'if a
> spell is played targetting a creature put a new effect on top of the
> stack above that spell which destroyes that creature'

It means the latter. It says "Whenever", which makes it a triggered
ability, and that's how triggered abilities work. But there are no
permanent spells that target creatures (or anything else for that
matter)..

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern wrote:

> Monte Gardner wrote:
>
>> Horobi:
>> Flying
>> Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, destroy
>> that creature.
>>
>> Suppose I play the spell "clone" (copies any target creature)
>
> But Clone *doesn't* copy a target creature. Clone doesn't target
> anything.
>
> Clone
> Creature - Clone
> 0/0:
> As Clone comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do,
> Clone comes into play as a copy of that creature.
>
> See? No target.
>
>> - or, for
>> that matter, any other permanent targetting a creature -
>
> Find me any permanent spell (not an ability on a permanent) that targets
> anything and you win a no-prize. There are no such cards.

Er, excepting local enchantments, of course, *all* of which target
permanents except for two in Unglued that target players.


--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I've had a vision! Monte Gardner said...
> Horobi:
> Flying
> Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, destroy
> that creature.
>
> Suppose I play the spell "clone" (copies any target creature) - or, for
> that matter, any other permanent targetting a creature - what happens
> when that spell resolves? Is the target still around, and if not, does
> the spell resolve succesfully? I guess my question boils down to the
> exact meaning of Horobi's text. Does it mean 'after a spell resolves
> targetting a creature destroy that creature' or does it mean 'if a
> spell is played targetting a creature put a new effect on top of the
> stack above that spell which destroyes that creature'

Bad example. Clone doesn't target anymore, and hasn't for some time, so
it doesn't interact with Horobi's ability at all.

Ignoring Clone and addressing the more general question, the second of
the two alternatives you mention is the correct one. As soon as a
creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, a triggered ability
goes on the stack which will destroy it. So when does the creature
actually become a target? As soon as the spell or ability in question is
announced, long before it resolves. Therefore Horobi's triggered ability
resolves first, and the target is no longer there on resolution. This
usually causes the spell or ability doing the targeting to be countered
on resolution ("fizzle" as some people still call it).

As for Clone:

Clone (Alpha/Beta/Unlimited and Revised uncommon, Onslaught rare)
3UU
Creature - Clone
As Clone comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do,
Clone comes into play as a copy of that creature.
0/0

(As well as being the official Oracle wording, that's what the physical
Onslaught printing of the card says too. However, the earlier versions
were worded very differently, which may be the source of the confusion.
Always use the current Oracle text of all cards.)

This doesn't say "target" anywhere, and isn't a local enchantment, so it
doesn't target anything. What will happen is that Clone will come into
play and copy the creature it wanted to copy just fine. (Then if that
creature was Horobi, which was how I originally took your question, both
would promptly go to the graveyard due to being duplicate Legendary
permanents.)

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org> sent:

[otherwise excellent answer]
> As for Clone:

> Clone (Alpha/Beta/Unlimited and Revised uncommon, Onslaught rare)
> 3UU

3U

> Creature - Clone
> As Clone comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do,
> Clone comes into play as a copy of that creature.
> 0/0

--
-- zoe

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 24 Feb 2005 21:43:59 -0800, Monte Gardner <Monte.Gardner@asu.edu> wrote:
>Horobi:
>Flying
>Whenever a creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, destroy
>that creature.
>
>Suppose I play the spell "clone" (copies any target creature)

Um, does not.

Clone 3U Creature - Clone
0/0 As ~ comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do, ~
comes into play as a copy of that creature.

No targetting involved here. However, there's a different problem: Horobi is
a Legendary creature, so if something does make a copy of him, both of them
go POP and vanish to the graveyard, unless a Mirror Gallery is around.

>- or, for that matter, any other permanent targetting a creature - what
>happens when that spell resolves? Is the target still around, and if not, does
>the spell resolve succesfully?

The target will not be around, because Horobi's ability will have triggered
on announcement of the targetted spell or ability, will have gone onto the
stack on TOP of that spell or ability (since the spell or ability was already
on the stack slightly before it chose its target(s) and triggered Horobi's
ability), and thus resolves first, destroying the targetted creature before
the spell or ability can resolve.

If that was the only target for that spell or ability, then no, it does not
resolve successfully - it is countered, because all of its targets are illegal
as it tries to resolve. If there were other targets too and at least one is
still legal, then the spell or ability resolves, but does not affect its
illegal target(s) in any way.

> I guess my question boils down to the
>exact meaning of Horobi's text. Does it mean 'after a spell resolves
>targetting a creature destroy that creature' or does it mean 'if a
>spell is played targetting a creature put a new effect on top of the
>stack above that spell which destroyes that creature'

The latter. It triggers on the choosing of the target, which is done during
announcement, and the triggered ability goes on the stack before anyone can
get priority -after- that announcement is done. So it goes on the stack on
top of the spell/ability. Horobi doesn't say anything about waiting for the
spell or ability to resolve in any way, so doesn't do anything like that.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>Find me any permanent spell (not an ability on a permanent) that targets
>anything and you win a no-prize. There are no such cards.

You meant to add "other than local enchantment spells", correct? It is true
that no creature or artifact spell, and no global enchantment spell, targets
anything, but there's a whole category of "permanent-producing spells" that
target something: local enchantment spells.

>It means the latter. It says "Whenever", which makes it a triggered
>ability, and that's how triggered abilities work. But there are no
>permanent spells that target creatures (or anything else for that matter)..

No non-local-enchantment permanent spells, anyway. Holy Strength, for example,
is a spell that becomes a permanent and which targets a creature...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.