Cloudpost & Blood Moon

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Okay, Guys--

Time to settle a disagreement. Last night, a friend & I were doing a
little playtesting. He was running G/R Tooth & Nail w/fireball, and I
was playing a mono-red rogue deck. Afterwards, I was talking about a
possible sideboard option, Blood Moon. His response, "How would that
hurt this deck?" Disagreement insues.

In this corner....

Blood Moon
2R
Enchantment
Nonbasic lands are Mountains.

and in this corner....

Cloudpost
Land--Locus
Cloudpost comes into play tapped.
{Tap}: Add {1} to your mana pool for each Locus in play.

I said that the Blood Moon would turn his Cloudposts into Mountains
that were also Loci (Locuses?); however, since they were now
mountains, that would only tap for R. (Presumably, if WotC came up
with a new card that interacts with Loci, that interaction would
remain unchanged. But I digress.)

My opponent disagreed. He stated that because they were still Loci,
that the tap ability of the Cloudpost remained unchanged.

Who's right in this case? Thanks!

Scott

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos) writes:
> Time to settle a disagreement. Last night, a friend & I were doing a
> little playtesting. He was running G/R Tooth & Nail w/fireball, and I
> was playing a mono-red rogue deck. Afterwards, I was talking about a
> possible sideboard option, Blood Moon. His response, "How would that
> hurt this deck?" Disagreement insues.
>
> Blood Moon
> 2R
> Enchantment
> Nonbasic lands are Mountains.
>
> Cloudpost
> Land--Locus
> Cloudpost comes into play tapped.
> {Tap}: Add {1} to your mana pool for each Locus in play.
>
> I said that the Blood Moon would turn his Cloudposts into Mountains
> that were also Loci (Locuses?)

No, Blood Moon turns Cloudpost into a Mountain that does not have type
Locus.

> ; however, since they were now mountains, that would only tap for R.

Well, since they were given a basic land type, they lost their old
text box and gained the text for the mountain ability.

,----[ Magic Comp. Rules <http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/> ]
| 212.6e If an effect changes a land's type to one or more of the
| basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses
| any rules text it had in its text box, other than the rules text for
| the snow-covered ability, and it gains the rules text for the
| appropriate mana ability for each of its basic land types. Note that
| this doesn't remove any abilities that were granted to the land by
| other effects. Changing a land's type doesn't add or remove any
| types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic and legendary)
| the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in
| addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it
| gains the new land types and mana abilities.
`----

> (Presumably, if WotC came up with a new card that interacts with
> Loci, that interaction would remain unchanged. But I digress.)

Nope. It loses its old land type. (As my own digression, it doesn't
lose supertypes such as Legendary, and it doesn't add supertypes such
as Basic.)

> My opponent disagreed. He stated that because they were still Loci,
> that the tap ability of the Cloudpost remained unchanged.

Nope. Not only is it not a Loci, the rule for changing-land-to-basic-
land-type specifically says that it loses its old rules text.

> Who's right in this case? Thanks!

Neither one of you, technically. But you were closer.

--
Peter C.
"I need to practice talking to myself now."
-- Me

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org (Peter Cooper Jr.) wrote in message news:<86pt4m8gdc.fsf@pcpc.cooper.homedns.org>...
> sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos) writes:
> > Time to settle a disagreement. Last night, a friend & I were doing a
> > little playtesting. He was running G/R Tooth & Nail w/fireball, and I
> > was playing a mono-red rogue deck. Afterwards, I was talking about a
> > possible sideboard option, Blood Moon. His response, "How would that
> > hurt this deck?" Disagreement insues.
> >
> > Blood Moon
> > 2R
> > Enchantment
> > Nonbasic lands are Mountains.
> >
> > Cloudpost
> > Land--Locus
> > Cloudpost comes into play tapped.
> > {Tap}: Add {1} to your mana pool for each Locus in play.
> >
> > I said that the Blood Moon would turn his Cloudposts into Mountains
> > that were also Loci (Locuses?)
>
> No, Blood Moon turns Cloudpost into a Mountain that does not have type
> Locus.
>
> > ; however, since they were now mountains, that would only tap for R.
>
> Well, since they were given a basic land type, they lost their old
> text box and gained the text for the mountain ability.
>
> ,----[ Magic Comp. Rules <http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/> ]
> | 212.6e If an effect changes a land's type to one or more of the
> | basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses
> | any rules text it had in its text box, other than the rules text for
> | the snow-covered ability, and it gains the rules text for the
> | appropriate mana ability for each of its basic land types. Note that
> | this doesn't remove any abilities that were granted to the land by
> | other effects. Changing a land's type doesn't add or remove any
> | types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic and legendary)
> | the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in
> | addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it
> | gains the new land types and mana abilities.
> `----
>
> > (Presumably, if WotC came up with a new card that interacts with
> > Loci, that interaction would remain unchanged. But I digress.)
>
> Nope. It loses its old land type. (As my own digression, it doesn't
> lose supertypes such as Legendary, and it doesn't add supertypes such
> as Basic.)

Oops. I was under the impression that Locus was a supertype. Would I
be right in saying that 'Locus' is a subtype?

>
> > My opponent disagreed. He stated that because they were still Loci,
> > that the tap ability of the Cloudpost remained unchanged.
>
> Nope. Not only is it not a Loci, the rule for changing-land-to-basic-
> land-type specifically says that it loses its old rules text.
>
> > Who's right in this case? Thanks!
>
> Neither one of you, technically. But you were closer.

Thanks for your help!

Scott

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos) writes:
> Oops. I was under the impression that Locus was a supertype. Would I
> be right in saying that 'Locus' is a subtype?

Yes. Things after the dash are subtypes; things before it are types or
supertypes. The only supertypes right now are Basic and Legendary.

--
Peter C.
"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the
initiative in creating the Internet."
-- Al Gore, March 9, 1999, On CNN's Late Edition

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org (Peter Cooper Jr.) wrote in message news:<86llfam5hy.fsf@pcpc.cooper.homedns.org>...
> sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos) writes:
> > Oops. I was under the impression that Locus was a supertype. Would I
> > be right in saying that 'Locus' is a subtype?
>
> Yes. Things after the dash are subtypes; things before it are types or
> supertypes. The only supertypes right now are Basic and Legendary.

Then would you mind explaining to me exactly how the Blood
Moon/Artifact Land interaction works, according to the rules? The way
I had it explained to me at the local shop is that Blood Moon turns
all artifact lands into artifact Mountains because the 'artifact' part
of 'artifact land' is a supertype, and therefore, is not affected by
Blood Moon.

Thanks!

Scott

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 16 Sep 2004 06:44:16 -0700, Scott Vajdos <sfvajdos@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Time to settle a disagreement. Last night, a friend & I were doing a
>little playtesting. He was running G/R Tooth & Nail w/fireball, and I
>was playing a mono-red rogue deck. Afterwards, I was talking about a
>possible sideboard option, Blood Moon. His response, "How would that
>hurt this deck?" Disagreement insues.
>
>In this corner....
>
>Blood Moon 2R Enchantment
>Nonbasic lands are Mountains.

This does not stop them from being nonbasic.

>and in this corner....
>
>Cloudpost Land--Locus
>Cloudpost comes into play tapped.
>{Tap}: Add {1} to your mana pool for each Locus in play.

This _does_ stop them from being a Locus, however; that's a land type, and
Blood Moon doesn't say "Nonbasic lands are Mountains in addition to their
land type(s)". Your Cloudpost now has name Cloudpost, land type Mountain,
and no rules text other than "Tap: Add R to your mana pool.". (A new one
will still come into play tapped, because that's checked for before you get
to apply Blood Moon's continuous ability to the new land...)

>I said that the Blood Moon would turn his Cloudposts into Mountains
>that were also Loci (Locuses?); however, since they were now
>mountains, that would only tap for R. (Presumably, if WotC came up
>with a new card that interacts with Loci, that interaction would
>remain unchanged. But I digress.)
>
>My opponent disagreed. He stated that because they were still Loci,
>that the tap ability of the Cloudpost remained unchanged.

Both of you are wrong. The Cloudpost stops being a Locus. A separate part of
changing land types to a basic land type _also_ removes the Cloudpost's text
and gives it the Mountain rules text, so he's more wrong than you were, but
neither of you were correct...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos) writes:
> pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org (Peter Cooper Jr.) wrote:
>> sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos) writes:
>> > Oops. I was under the impression that Locus was a supertype. Would I
>> > be right in saying that 'Locus' is a subtype?
>>
>> Yes. Things after the dash are subtypes; things before it are types or
>> supertypes. The only supertypes right now are Basic and Legendary.
>
> Then would you mind explaining to me exactly how the Blood
> Moon/Artifact Land interaction works, according to the rules? The way
> I had it explained to me at the local shop is that Blood Moon turns
> all artifact lands into artifact Mountains because the 'artifact' part
> of 'artifact land' is a supertype, and therefore, is not affected by
> Blood Moon.

Well, you have the right answer, but the wrong terminology.

An artifact land with Blood Moon out is an "Artifact Land — Mountain",
and I was trying to say that it is *not* something that one might
expect, that being "Basic Artifact Land — Mountain".

There are 6 types in Magic: Instant, Sorcery, Land, Artifact,
Enchantment, and Creature. Each of those have subtypes, which go after
the dash, such as Arcane, Mountain, Equipment, and Goblin. But, there
are two supertypes that can apply to anything: Basic and
Legendary. Those are additional "properties" that anything can
be. (Although at the moment, Basic only applies to lands.)

Changing something's subtype, such as with Blood Moon, does not change
any supertypes or types.

You may want to take a look at section 205.2 through 205.4, and
section 212, in the Comprehensive Rulebook (available at
<http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules>), but be aware that some type
rules are changing for Champions (such as Enchantment, Instant, and
Sorcery subtypes, plus of course the new rule for the Legendary
supertype).

Does that help clear things up?

--
Peter C.
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it
would be a merrier world."
-- J. R. R. Tolkien

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, Scott!
You wrote on 17 Sep 2004 06:55:09 -0700:
SV> Then would you mind explaining to me exactly how the Blood
SV> Moon/Artifact Land interaction works, according to the rules?
SV> The way
SV> I had it explained to me at the local shop is that Blood Moon
SV> turns
SV> all artifact lands into artifact Mountains because the
SV> 'artifact' part
SV> of 'artifact land' is a supertype, and therefore, is not
SV> affected by
SV> Blood Moon.

A slight mistake: 'Artifact' is a permanent type, not a supertype. It's
a permanent with two permanent types, that's all (much like Artifact
Creature).

The full picture is like this:

Blood Moon assigns a new permanent subtype - land type 'Mountain' - to
all non-basic lands, overwriting whatever other subtypes (such as Locus)
they might have had. Those Mountains are still nonbasic (since they
didn't have supertype Basic to begin with and nothing has given it to
them) Artifact Lands (since changing the permanent subtype does nothing
to the permanent type(s)).

Regards,
Arkady.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 17 Sep 2004 06:55:09 -0700, sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos)
wrote:

>pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org (Peter Cooper Jr.) wrote in message news:<86llfam5hy.fsf@pcpc.cooper.homedns.org>...
>> sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos) writes:
>> > Oops. I was under the impression that Locus was a supertype. Would I
>> > be right in saying that 'Locus' is a subtype?
>>
>> Yes. Things after the dash are subtypes; things before it are types or
>> supertypes. The only supertypes right now are Basic and Legendary.
>
>Then would you mind explaining to me exactly how the Blood
>Moon/Artifact Land interaction works, according to the rules? The way
>I had it explained to me at the local shop is that Blood Moon turns
>all artifact lands into artifact Mountains because the 'artifact' part
>of 'artifact land' is a supertype, and therefore, is not affected by
>Blood Moon.

Ok. There are supertypes, types and subtypes.

Supertypes are always printed first, following them (no delimiter) are
the types, and finally the subtypes are printed after a dash.

At the moment there are only two supertypes; Basic and Legendary and
they have, so far , never appeared together on a card.

Types include; Creature, Artifact, Instant and Land.

Subtypes depend on the cards type, eg. only Lands can have the subtype
Mountain, therefore subtypes are sometimes referred to as "<type>
types" - an example to make sense of that: Subtypes that belong to
Creatures are called "creature types", Land subtypes are "land types",
and so on.


Blood Moon changes all Lands without the supertype Basic (non-basic
lands) to have the _subtype_ Mountain.


Here's the general rule about type and subtype:

212.1b. When an object's type changes, the new type(s) replaces any
existing types. <snip> Similarly, when the subtypes of one of an
object's types change, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing
subtypes of that type. <snip> Removing an object's subtype doesn't
affect its types at all.

Since you only replace a subtype, the types "Artifact Land" are left
untouched. But since you are fiddeling with basic land types (the five
land types from the basic lands) an extra rule kicks in and makes
those lands unable to do anything but tap for red mana:

212.6e If an effect changes a land's type to one or more of the basic
land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses any
rules text it had in its text box, other than the rules text for the
snow-covered ability, and it gains the rules text for the appropriate
mana ability for each of its basic land types. Note that this doesn't
remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects.
Changing a land's type doesn't add or remove any types (such as
creature) or supertypes (such as basic and legendary) the land may
have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own,
it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land
types and mana abilities.


Note that 212.6e explicitly does not in any way alter supertypes.

Thus Blood Moon turns an Ancient Den into:

Ancient Den <- original
Artifact Land
(~this~ isn't a spell.)
{T}: Add {W} to your mana pool.


Ancient Den <- Blood Mooned
Artifact Land - Mountain
(~this~ isn't a spell.)
{T}: Add {R} to your mana pool.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote in message news:<i3tlk092oho6eet7r6ap7vpcuhsshrf6c5@4ax.com>...
> On 17 Sep 2004 06:55:09 -0700, sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos)
> wrote:
>
> >pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org (Peter Cooper Jr.) wrote in message news:<86llfam5hy.fsf@pcpc.cooper.homedns.org>...
> >> sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos) writes:


<<snipping answers>>

Thanks to everyone who got back to me on this matter. I certainly appreciate it!

Scott

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Scott Vajdos <sfvajdos@hotmail.com> wrote:
>pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org (Peter Cooper Jr.) wrote:
>> sfvajdos@hotmail.com (Scott Vajdos) writes:
>> > Oops. I was under the impression that Locus was a supertype. Would I
>> > be right in saying that 'Locus' is a subtype?
>>
>> Yes. Things after the dash are subtypes; things before it are types or
>> supertypes. The only supertypes right now are Basic and Legendary.
>
>Then would you mind explaining to me exactly how the Blood
>Moon/Artifact Land interaction works, according to the rules?

Blood Moon changes their _land_ type. "Artifact" is not a land type, any more
than it's a creature type; it is a _permanent_ type (and card type and spell
type, though the last doesn't apply here).

> The way
>I had it explained to me at the local shop is that Blood Moon turns
>all artifact lands into artifact Mountains because the 'artifact' part
>of 'artifact land' is a supertype, and therefore, is not affected by
>Blood Moon.

No. "Artifact" is not a supertype. At present there are two supertypes: Basic
and Legendary. Artifact is a permanent type, and Blood Moon doesn't say it
makes nonbasic lands into Mountain _lands_ - it doesn't say it changes
permanent type. It only changes land type, which is a subtype, and not any
actual type or any other subtype.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.