CoK Deceivers

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

The "Deceivers" from Champions of Kamigawa have abilities like:

{2}: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land,
.... <some effect> ... until end of turn. Play this ability
only once each turn.

Can I play these abilities even if the top card of my library
is already revealed? (E.g.: can I play such an ability in my
turn and then play it again in the next turn of my opponent,
if the --now revealed-- top card of my library is a land?)

Thanks in advance for your help. Th.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Thomas D'Tak <outpost@rumblefish.org> wrote:

> The "Deceivers" from Champions of Kamigawa have abilities like:
>
> {2}: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land,
> ... <some effect> ... until end of turn. Play this ability
> only once each turn.
>
> Can I play these abilities even if the top card of my library
> is already revealed? (E.g.: can I play such an ability in my
> turn and then play it again in the next turn of my opponent,
> if the --now revealed-- top card of my library is a land?)

You can use it even if everyone remembers that the card is a land.
(Note that the reveal instruction is a one-shot effect, not a continuous
effect.)
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> writes:
> Thomas D'Tak, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
>> Oh, I totally misinterpreted that! Up to now, I played CHK with German
>> Magic cards only, and from the German text of the Deceiver-cards, I got
>> the impression that the revealed card will stay face-up on top of my
>> deck.
>
> There *are* things that work as you interpreted the decievers to, by the
> way. (And you can play the Deciever ability perfectly well if they're in
> play.) For example, Future Sight does leave the top card of your library
> face-up at all times. In English this is worded "Play with the top card
> of your library revealed", not just "reveal the top card of your
> library"; how that translates to German I have no idea.

The difference is mainly that Future Sight's ability is a static
ability, applying anytime that it is in play. An activated or
triggered ability, or a spell, that resolves at just one particular
time, just reveals the card while the ability or spell is resolving.

I can definitely understand the confusion, though... Even in English,
it would be easy for one could misinterpret the card that way. One
thing one could do to try to see the difference is to compare it to
cards like Distress, where the hand is revealed to pick a card to
discard. This is the same kind of thing: you reveal a card from a
hidden zone to resolve that particular effect, not to have it revealed
in general.

(For the Deceivers to work the way you want, they would probably be
worded "until end of turn" or "until that card leaves the library" or
something.)

--
Peter C.
"This document defines one particular type of MIME data, the
matter-transport/sentient-life-form type"
-- RFC 1437, "The Extension of MIME Content-Types to a New Medium"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Thomas D'Tak wrote:

> The "Deceivers" from Champions of Kamigawa have abilities like:
>
> {2}: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land,
> ... <some effect> ... until end of turn. Play this ability
> only once each turn.
>
> Can I play these abilities even if the top card of my library
> is already revealed? (E.g.: can I play such an ability in my
> turn and then play it again in the next turn of my opponent,
> if the --now revealed-- top card of my library is a land?)

Yes, why not?
--

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:13:59 -0500, Daniel W. Johnson wrote:

> Thomas D'Tak <outpost@rumblefish.org> wrote:
>
>> The "Deceivers" from Champions of Kamigawa have abilities like:
>>
>> {2}: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land,
>> ... <some effect> ... until end of turn. Play this ability
>> only once each turn.
>>
>> ... ... ...
>
> You can use it even if everyone remembers that the card is a land.
> (Note that the reveal instruction is a one-shot effect, not a continuous
> effect.)

Oh, I totally misinterpreted that! Up to now, I played CHK with German
Magic cards only, and from the German text of the Deceiver-cards, I got
the impression that the revealed card will stay face-up on top of my
deck.

Thanks! Th.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Thomas D'Tak <outpost@rumblefish.org> wrote:

> Oh, I totally misinterpreted that! Up to now, I played CHK with German
> Magic cards only, and from the German text of the Deceiver-cards, I got
> the impression that the revealed card will stay face-up on top of my
> deck.

Another point that I should have made: That ability has no restriction
like "Play this ability only if the top card of your library is not
revealed." A Field of Dreams or a Goblin Spy will save you the effort
of playing the first ability on the card, but it will not interfere with
the second ability. (Such a continous revelation would also not
interfere with the first ability, it would just turn it into a waste of
mana.)
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:22:34 +0100, Thomas D'Tak <outpost@rumblefish.org> wrote:
>The "Deceivers" from Champions of Kamigawa have abilities like:
>
>{2}: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land,
>... <some effect> ... until end of turn. Play this ability
>only once each turn.

Right.

>Can I play these abilities even if the top card of my library
>is already revealed?

Yes. You may 'reveal' a card that is already revealed for some other reason -
to reveal it means to let every player in the game see what card it is (and,
in tournaments, if a judge is standing near they get to see it too). This is
fairly easy to do if it's already revealed...

>(E.g.: can I play such an ability in my
>turn and then play it again in the next turn of my opponent,
>if the --now revealed-- top card of my library is a land?)

Okay, hold on. The card is only revealed during the resolution of this ability;
nothing says that it STAYS revealed afterwards. You reveal it (and if opponent
needs a moment to look it over you can't say "Sorry, you only have 1.5 seconds
to look at it then I turn it back over, nyah"), and find out if it's a land;
if it is, the rest of the effect happens. The rest of the effect doesn't
depend on it STAYING revealed in any way; in general, the card is back to
'unrevealed' by the time the rest of the effect happens.

If the Deceivers meant "play with your top card revealed until the next time
an ability tells you to reveal a card, or until the top card of your library
changes", they would say that. They do not say this, so the card doesn't STAY
revealed once the effect is done resolving.

You, and opponent, may KNOW what that top card is. It may even be sitting
there revealed because of Revelation or Orcish Spy or Field of Dreams or
Future Sight or some such other effect. But that doesn't stop you from
revealing it through a Deceiver's effect (and doesn't stop you from playing
such an ability).

(Furthermore, if for some reason the top card is already revealed, this does
NOT mean you "reveal the next card down instead"; the Deceiver text doesn't
say "reveal the topmost card of your library that is currently unknown to
you".)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Thomas D'Tak, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 11:13:59 -0500, Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
>
> > Thomas D'Tak <outpost@rumblefish.org> wrote:
> >
> >> The "Deceivers" from Champions of Kamigawa have abilities like:
> >>
> >> {2}: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land,
> >> ... <some effect> ... until end of turn. Play this ability
> >> only once each turn.
> >>
> >> ... ... ...
> >
> > You can use it even if everyone remembers that the card is a land.
> > (Note that the reveal instruction is a one-shot effect, not a continuous
> > effect.)
>
> Oh, I totally misinterpreted that! Up to now, I played CHK with German
> Magic cards only, and from the German text of the Deceiver-cards, I got
> the impression that the revealed card will stay face-up on top of my
> deck.

There *are* things that work as you interpreted the decievers to, by the
way. (And you can play the Deciever ability perfectly well if they're in
play.) For example, Future Sight does leave the top card of your library
face-up at all times. In English this is worded "Play with the top card
of your library revealed", not just "reveal the top card of your
library"; how that translates to German I have no idea.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Thomas D'Tak sez:

<<
>The "Deceivers" from Champions of Kamigawa have abilities like:
>
>{2}: Reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land,
>... <some effect> ... until end of turn. Play this ability
>only once each turn.
>
>Can I play these abilities even if the top card of my library
>is already revealed? (E.g.: can I play such an ability in my
>turn and then play it again in the next turn of my opponent,
>if the --now revealed-- top card of my library is a land?)
>
>>

Sure. There's nothing that says "You can't play this ability if the top card
of your library has changed since the last time you played this ability" on it,
or something...

You can even use it with Future Sight if you want...


----
"Wait. I thought you were going to be funny. Come on. Be funny."
"No. No. I'm not going to be your monkey."
Tucker Carlson v. Jon Stewart, Crossfire, 10/15
 
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