Combat Damage Timing

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I declare a White Knight and a War Mammoth as attackers.

# White Knight
# {W}{W}
# Creature -- Knight
# 2/2
# First strike, protection from black

# War Mammoth
# {3}{G}
# Creature -- Mammoth
# 3/3
# Trample

My opponent, Paul, has two Rainbow Efreets in play and assigns each to
block one of my attackers.

# Rainbow Efreet
# {3}{U}
# Creature -- Efreet
# 3/1
# Flying
# {U}{U}: Rainbow Efreet phases out.

Neither of us elect to use instants or the Efreets' activated abilities
(is the term 'fast effect' still used?) so we proceed to the "combat
damage step".

Can Paul kill the White Knight and still phase its blocker out or would
that Efreet die before it could deal damage?

In the War Mammoth pair, what are my options for assigning damage? It
seems I must assign one to the Efreet and two to Paul. He phases the
Efreet out, so the one damage is 'lost' and three damage is done to the
Mammoth and two to him. Is that correct?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"jzilla" <jzilla@usenet> wrote in message
news:40964512$0$16600$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> I declare a White Knight and a War Mammoth as attackers.
<snip card text>
> Neither of us elect to use instants or the Efreets' activated abilities
> (is the term 'fast effect' still used?) so we proceed to the "combat
> damage step".
>

OK, so he declares blockers, passes, then you pass, then you put damage on
the stack.

> Can Paul kill the White Knight and still phase its blocker out or would
> that Efreet die before it could deal damage?

Yeah. This is quite common (not this *exact* situation, but some type of
"fast effect" once damage has gone on the stack. Your opponent can wait
until damage is on the stack, then play his "instant" (which, in this case,
is the Efreet's phasing ability). The damage is already "locked in", but the
Efreet phases out, so it's not there to receive it's White Knight beatings.
However, the Knight is still in play to receive Efreet beatings. First
strike damage from the Knight or not, the Efreet will survive, because it's
simply not there to be damaged once the combat damage resolves. (That is,
when the stack empties, because the combat damage will be the last thing to
resolve)

> In the War Mammoth pair, what are my options for assigning damage? It
> seems I must assign one to the Efreet and two to Paul. He phases the
> Efreet out, so the one damage is 'lost' and three damage is done to the
> Mammoth and two to him. Is that correct?

Yes, one damage gets assigned to the Efreet and 2 to Paul. The Efreet phases
out, and that one damage is indeed "lost". Three damage is done to the
Mammoth, so it will die (barring any damage prevention spells or abilities)
The Efreet will phase out, so it won't be killed in combat. It'll be gone
for the turn, but not dead.

--

KB

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Tue, 04 May 2004 00:03:48 +1000, jzilla <jzilla@usenet> wrote:
>I declare a White Knight and a War Mammoth as attackers.

Okay. They'll assign, and deal, combat damage at different times.

># White Knight WW Creature -- Knight
># 2/2 First strike, protection from black
># War Mammoth 3G Creature -- Mammoth
># 3/3 Trample
>
>My opponent, Paul, has two Rainbow Efreets in play and assigns each to
>block one of my attackers.

He'll get a chance to phase out the first one after the Knight's combat damage
goes on the stack but before it resolves. One step later, he'll get a chance
to phase out the second one after the Mammoth's combat damage goes on the stack
(and thus after it's divided between the Efreet #2 and him) and before it
resolves.

># Rainbow Efreet 3U Creature -- Efreet
># 3/1 Flying UU: ~ phases out.
>
>Neither of us elect to use instants or the Efreets' activated abilities
>(is the term 'fast effect' still used?) so we proceed to the "combat
>damage step".

"Fast effect" isn't a Game Term any more; people use it, but most of those
who do would be hard-pressed to actually write down what it _meant_.

>Can Paul kill the White Knight and still phase its blocker out or would
>that Efreet die before it could deal damage?

The Efreet can be phased out in response to combat damage, in the first-strike
combat-damage step. But this is before the _Efreet_ ever gets to put combat
damage on the stack, since it does NOT have first strike, you see. If the
Efreet stays in play, it will die without being able to put any combat damage
on the stack at all.

>In the War Mammoth pair, what are my options for assigning damage? It
>seems I must assign one to the Efreet and two to Paul. He phases the
>Efreet out, so the one damage is 'lost' and three damage is done to the
>Mammoth and two to him. Is that correct?

Depends. Is its Efreet -still there- when the time comes for the Mammoth to
put combat damage on the stack?

a) No, it already phased out during declare-blockers step or during
first-strike combat-damage step.
Here the Mammoth is blocked, but has no blockers, as it tries to put combat
damage on the stack. Since it has Trample, it puts all 3 on the stack aimed
at defending player. No combat damage gets put on the stack from the Efreet,
because it's not there any more.

b) Yes, the Efreet is still there, and is probably planning to flee once
combat damage is on the stack.
The Mammoth has to assign at least 1 damage to the Efreet blocking it. So now
its choices are Efreet 1, defender 2; Efreet 2, defender 1; and Efreet 3,
defender none. If the Efreet leaves play in response to combat damage, that
doesn't change how the damage was assigned, and only the damage assigned to
defender gets dealt (2, 1, or 0).
The Efreet also assigns 3 damage to the Mammoth, which will later get dealt
regardless of whether the Efreet is still in play or not.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Ken Briscoe wrote:
> "jzilla" <jzilla@usenet> wrote in message
> news:40964512$0$16600$5a62ac22@freenews.iinet.net.au...
>
>>I declare a White Knight and a War Mammoth as attackers.
>
> <snip card text>
>
>>Neither of us elect to use instants or the Efreets' activated abilities
>>(is the term 'fast effect' still used?) so we proceed to the "combat
>>damage step".
>>
>
>
> OK, so he declares blockers, passes, then you pass, then you put damage on
> the stack.
>
>
>>Can Paul kill the White Knight and still phase its blocker out or would
>>that Efreet die before it could deal damage?
>
>
> Yeah. This is quite common (not this *exact* situation, but some type of
> "fast effect" once damage has gone on the stack. Your opponent can wait
> until damage is on the stack, then play his "instant" (which, in this case,
> is the Efreet's phasing ability). The damage is already "locked in", but the
> Efreet phases out, so it's not there to receive it's White Knight beatings.
> However, the Knight is still in play to receive Efreet beatings. First
> strike damage from the Knight or not, the Efreet will survive, because it's
> simply not there to be damaged once the combat damage resolves. (That is,
> when the stack empties, because the combat damage will be the last thing to
> resolve)

This isn't exactly true. First strike gets a whole round of combat
damage. So, attackers are declared, then blockers.

Both players pass.

First strike combat damage goes on the stack. This would kill the
Efreet, unless it is phased out at this point. Ofcourse, if it is phased
out now it will not assign combat damage.

First strike damage resolves, and then the "normal" combat damage goes
on the stack.

>>In the War Mammoth pair, what are my options for assigning damage? It
>>seems I must assign one to the Efreet and two to Paul. He phases the
>>Efreet out, so the one damage is 'lost' and three damage is done to the
>>Mammoth and two to him. Is that correct?
>
>
> Yes, one damage gets assigned to the Efreet and 2 to Paul. The Efreet phases
> out, and that one damage is indeed "lost". Three damage is done to the
> Mammoth, so it will die (barring any damage prevention spells or abilities)
> The Efreet will phase out, so it won't be killed in combat. It'll be gone
> for the turn, but not dead.
>

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Ken Briscoe <youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:
>"jzilla" <jzilla@usenet> wrote in message
>> Can Paul kill the White Knight and still phase its blocker out or would
>> that Efreet die before it could deal damage?
>
>Yeah. This is quite common (not this *exact* situation, but some type of
>"fast effect" once damage has gone on the stack. Your opponent can wait
>until damage is on the stack, then play his "instant" (which, in this case,
>is the Efreet's phasing ability). The damage is already "locked in", but the
>Efreet phases out, so it's not there to receive it's White Knight beatings.
>However, the Knight is still in play to receive Efreet beatings. First
>strike damage from the Knight or not, the Efreet will survive, because it's
>simply not there to be damaged once the combat damage resolves. (That is,
>when the stack empties, because the combat damage will be the last thing to
>resolve)

Your "Yeah" is ambiguous here. The Knight can't get killed by combat damage
from the Efreet blocking it. If the Efreet phases out before first-strike
combat damage goes on the stack, then the Knight won't get to put any on at
all - it's blocked, has no blocker, and doesn't have Trample; the Efreet
doesn't either because it's not in play. If the Efreet waits until after first
strike combat damage gets put on the stack, then guess what? It doesn't HAVE
first strike, so DOESN'T PUT ANY DAMAGE ON THE STACK. The Knight -does- have
first strike, so puts 2 damage on the stack aimed at the Efreet.
Now either the Efreet phases out in response to combat damage, in which
case it's not there on resolution of the damage and the 2 doesn't get dealt at
all to anything, or it doesn't, in which case it gets dealt 2 damage and dies.
(There is no way to phase it out "after it gets dealt the damage but before it
dies from being lethally damaged".) In either case, the Efreet IS NOT THERE
later on when non-first-strike combat damage gets put on the stack... so
doesn't get to assign or deal any combat damage to the Knight at all.

>> In the War Mammoth pair, what are my options for assigning damage? It
>> seems I must assign one to the Efreet and two to Paul. He phases the
>> Efreet out, so the one damage is 'lost' and three damage is done to the
>> Mammoth and two to him. Is that correct?
>
>Yes, one damage gets assigned to the Efreet and 2 to Paul. The Efreet phases
>out, and that one damage is indeed "lost". Three damage is done to the
>Mammoth, so it will die (barring any damage prevention spells or abilities)
>The Efreet will phase out, so it won't be killed in combat. It'll be gone
>for the turn, but not dead.

This is one option. There are two other options: 3 to the Mammoth and 1 to
Paul, and 3 to the Mammoth and none at all to Paul.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.