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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi,

Say I would have 2 enchantments saying

"Creature come into play with 2 +1/+1 counters." and
"Creature come into play with 3 +1/+1 counters.".

Would creatures come into play with 5 +1/+1 counters or would I apply
timestamp order to determine the amount of counters a creature comes
into play with?

--
thanks,
David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>Say I would have 2 enchantments saying
>
>"Creature come into play with 2 +1/+1 counters." and
>"Creature come into play with 3 +1/+1 counters.".
>
>Would creatures come into play with 5 +1/+1 counters or would I apply
>timestamp order to determine the amount of counters a creature comes
>into play with?

Neither one of these contradicts the other - neither one says "come into play
with 2 +1/+1 counters, regardless of the number they normally would have come
into play with". So apply both; a creature coming into play will acquire two
+1/+1 counters from one, three +1/+1 counters from the other, and possibly some
from its own wording as well.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
news😛ine.GSO.4.61.0412051441490.21374@galjas.cs.vu.nl...
> Hi,
>
> Say I would have 2 enchantments saying
>
> "Creature come into play with 2 +1/+1 counters." and
> "Creature come into play with 3 +1/+1 counters.".
>
> Would creatures come into play with 5 +1/+1 counters or would I apply
> timestamp order to determine the amount of counters a creature comes
> into play with?
>

hmm

hard question. First of all, I assume you meant: "Creatures come into
play..."

In that case, both enchantments have a continuous effect that modifies how
things come into play. Both can be applied, and the last one applied would
win. However, WotC would almost certainly word this differently. Either
"Instead of the normal amount, creatures now come into play with 3 +1/+1
counters" [creatures that normally don't get +1/+1 counters get 3 as well]
or "When a creature comes into play, put 3 +1/+1 counters on it."


Still, I don't think this is seeing print any time soon.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, Jasper Overman wrote:

>
> "David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
> news😛ine.GSO.4.61.0412051441490.21374@galjas.cs.vu.nl...
>> Hi,
>>
>> Say I would have 2 enchantments saying
>>
>> "Creature come into play with 2 +1/+1 counters." and
>> "Creature come into play with 3 +1/+1 counters.".
>>
>> Would creatures come into play with 5 +1/+1 counters or would I apply
>> timestamp order to determine the amount of counters a creature comes
>> into play with?
>>
>
> hmm
>
> hard question. First of all, I assume you meant: "Creatures come into
> play..."

Yes I am.

> In that case, both enchantments have a continuous effect that modifies how
> things come into play. Both can be applied, and the last one applied would
> win. However, WotC would almost certainly word this differently. Either
> "Instead of the normal amount, creatures now come into play with 3 +1/+1
> counters" [creatures that normally don't get +1/+1 counters get 3 as well]
> or "When a creature comes into play, put 3 +1/+1 counters on it."
>
>
> Still, I don't think this is seeing print any time soon.

Then let me ask a very similar but not hypothetical question:

With how many counters does Arcbound Bruiser return to play at end of turn if
it was removed by Otherworldly Journey?

--
David

Arcbound Bruiser
{5}
Artifact Creature
0/0
Modular 3 (This comes into play with three +1/+1 counters on it. When
it's put into a graveyard, you may put its +1/+1 counters on target
artifact creature.)

Otherworldly Journey
{1}{W}
Instant -- Arcane
Remove target creature from the game. At end of turn, return that
creature to play under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>> In that case, both enchantments have a continuous effect that modifies how
>> things come into play. Both can be applied, and the last one applied would
>> win. However, WotC would almost certainly word this differently. Either
>> "Instead of the normal amount, creatures now come into play with 3 +1/+1
>> counters" [creatures that normally don't get +1/+1 counters get 3 as well]

and this also would replace the number they normally come into play with; if
that were the wording, having one out that said "two" and one out that said
"three" would mean there would be two replacement effects affecting the
creature. And the player putting it into play would choose the order to apply
them in, and the last one applied would replace all previous ones.

>> or "When a creature comes into play, put 3 +1/+1 counters on it."

A triggered ability, and easily seen to be additive.

>Then let me ask a very similar but not hypothetical question:
>
>With how many counters does Arcbound Bruiser return to play at end of turn if
>it was removed by Otherworldly Journey?

Four. Three of its own, and one put on it by Otherworldly Journey. Neither one
is saying that the other one -won't- also work, as making it a replacement
effect would.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> Four. Three of its own, and one put on it by Otherworldly Journey. Neither one
> is saying that the other one -won't- also work, as making it a replacement
> effect would.

Actually, that part of Modular is a replacement effect.

419.1b Effects that read "[This permanent] comes into play with . . . ,"
"As [this permanent] comes into play . . . ," or "[This permanent] comes
into play as . . . " are replacement effects.

But it ignores Otherworldly Journey's +1/+1 counter for much the same
reason that the Words of Whatever cards ignore Cephalid Looter's "...
then discards a card."
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
news😛ine.GSO.4.61.0412051646020.21195@keg.cs.vu.nl...
> On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, Jasper Overman wrote:
>
>>
>> "David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
>> news😛ine.GSO.4.61.0412051441490.21374@galjas.cs.vu.nl...
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Say I would have 2 enchantments saying
>>>
>>> "Creature come into play with 2 +1/+1 counters." and
>>> "Creature come into play with 3 +1/+1 counters.".
>>>
>>> Would creatures come into play with 5 +1/+1 counters or would I apply
>>> timestamp order to determine the amount of counters a creature comes
>>> into play with?
>>>
>>
>> hmm
>>
>> hard question. First of all, I assume you meant: "Creatures come into
>> play..."
>
> Yes I am.
>
>> In that case, both enchantments have a continuous effect that modifies
>> how
>> things come into play. Both can be applied, and the last one applied
>> would
>> win. However, WotC would almost certainly word this differently. Either
>> "Instead of the normal amount, creatures now come into play with 3 +1/+1
>> counters" [creatures that normally don't get +1/+1 counters get 3 as
>> well]
>> or "When a creature comes into play, put 3 +1/+1 counters on it."
>>
>>
>> Still, I don't think this is seeing print any time soon.
>
> Then let me ask a very similar but not hypothetical question:
>
> With how many counters does Arcbound Bruiser return to play at end of turn
> if
> it was removed by Otherworldly Journey?
>
with 4. The ability of the Bruiser and the Otherworldly Journey both apply
while the Bruiser is put into play, so they both place their counters. Which
would mean that the text you gave to start with would also be cumulative.


Jasper Overman
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Daniel W. Johnson <panoptes@iquest.net> wrote:
>David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>
>>Four. Three of its own, and one put on it by Otherworldly Journey. Neither one
>>is saying that the other one -won't- also work, as making it a replacement
>>effect would.
>
>Actually, that part of Modular is a replacement effect.

Then let me be a bit more persnickety in my wording: "as making it a
replacement effect that replaced how many counters it came into play with
would".

>419.1b Effects that read "[This permanent] comes into play with . . . ,"
>"As [this permanent] comes into play . . . ," or "[This permanent] comes
>into play as . . . " are replacement effects.
>
>But it ignores Otherworldly Journey's +1/+1 counter for much the same
>reason that the Words of Whatever cards ignore Cephalid Looter's "...
>then discards a card."

Right; both are just replacing the 'comes into play' part, and do not ALSO
replace any existing "with counters", "tapped", "under Foo's control", etc.,
that are already showing as alterations to the comes-into-play event.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, David DeLaney wrote:

> David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>> Say I would have 2 enchantments saying
>>
>> "Creature come into play with 2 +1/+1 counters." and
>> "Creature come into play with 3 +1/+1 counters.".
>>
>> Would creatures come into play with 5 +1/+1 counters or would I apply
>> timestamp order to determine the amount of counters a creature comes
>> into play with?
>
> Neither one of these contradicts the other ...

Why not? There is only one answer to the question "with how many
counters does the creature come into play?" so it can't be 2 as well
as 3.

--
David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:

> Why not? There is only one answer to the question "with how many
> counters does the creature come into play?" so it can't be 2 as well
> as 3.

Neither tries to mess with the other one's counters.

Imagine a couple hypothetical replacement effects. One says "If you
would draw a card, instead draw a card and gain 2 life." The other says
"If you would draw a card, instead draw a card and gain 3 life." At the
start of your draw step, suppose you choose the first one to apply
first. It changes the normal "draw a card" to "draw a card and gain 2
life". The other changes that further to "draw a card and gain 3 life
and gain 2 life". The second replacement effect doesn't change "draw a
card and gain 2 life" into "draw a card and gain 3 life", it just
changes the "draw a card" part.

Likewise, the two replacement effects here aren't trying to replace the
entire "comes into play with some +1/+1 counters" event, just the "comes
into play" part.

419.1b Effects that read "[This permanent] comes into play with . . . ,"
"As [this permanent] comes into play . . . ," or "[This permanent] comes
into play as . . . " are replacement effects.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, David DeLaney wrote:
>> David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>>> Say I would have 2 enchantments saying
>>>
>>> "Creature come into play with 2 +1/+1 counters." and
>>> "Creature come into play with 3 +1/+1 counters.".
>>>
>>> Would creatures come into play with 5 +1/+1 counters or would I apply
>>> timestamp order to determine the amount of counters a creature comes
>>> into play with?
>>
>> Neither one of these contradicts the other ...
>
>Why not? There is only one answer to the question "with how many
>counters does the creature come into play?" so it can't be 2 as well
>as 3.

Yes, there is only one answer. But neither of these is giving the WHOLE
answer; neither one says anything about "ignore any other effect that would
also make it come into play with +1/+1 counters", and more importantly,
neither one says "instead of the number of counters it would normally come
into play with". The latter -does- mean you end up with either two or three;
the wording you gave, though, says nothing about other counters being
disallowed, _including_ other +1/+1 counters.

The one answer here is five, because two is only part of the answer, and three
is also only part of the answer. You didn't word either one to imply that it
was the whole, complete, and unalterable answer.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 5 Dec 2004, David DeLaney wrote:

> David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, David DeLaney wrote:
>>> David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>>>> Say I would have 2 enchantments saying
>>>>
>>>> "Creature come into play with 2 +1/+1 counters." and
>>>> "Creature come into play with 3 +1/+1 counters.".
>>>>
>>>> Would creatures come into play with 5 +1/+1 counters or would I apply
>>>> timestamp order to determine the amount of counters a creature comes
>>>> into play with?
>>>
>>> Neither one of these contradicts the other ...
>>
>> Why not? There is only one answer to the question "with how many
>> counters does the creature come into play?" so it can't be 2 as well
>> as 3.
>
> Yes, there is only one answer. But neither of these is giving the WHOLE
> answer; neither one says anything about "ignore any other effect that would
> also make it come into play with +1/+1 counters", and more importantly,
> neither one says "instead of the number of counters it would normally come
> into play with". The latter -does- mean you end up with either two or three;
> the wording you gave, though, says nothing about other counters being
> disallowed, _including_ other +1/+1 counters.

Now have a look at these hypothetical card:

Differentworldly Journey
{1}{W}
Instant
Remove target creature from the game. At end of turn return the
creature to play and your life total becomes one.

Lifebound Bruiser
{5}
Artifact Creature
3/3
As Lifebound Bruiser comes into play your life total becomes three.

Neither one say anything like "instead of any other numbers your life
total becomes" so both apply making your life total become equal to 4
right? (I guess not.)

My point is that the previous cards don't say "with 3 additional
counters" or something like that. They just tell you the number of
counters the creature comes into play with.
--
David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

OK, I'm not Dave, but I'll try this anyways :)

"David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
news😛ine.GSO.4.61.0412061108440.4127@galjas.cs.vu.nl...
> On Mon, 5 Dec 2004, David DeLaney wrote:
>
>> David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>
> Now have a look at these hypothetical card:
>
> Differentworldly Journey
> {1}{W}
> Instant
> Remove target creature from the game. At end of turn return the
> creature to play and your life total becomes one.
>
> Lifebound Bruiser
> {5}
> Artifact Creature
> 3/3
> As Lifebound Bruiser comes into play your life total becomes three.
>
> Neither one say anything like "instead of any other numbers your life
> total becomes" so both apply making your life total become equal to 4
> right? (I guess not.)
>
> My point is that the previous cards don't say "with 3 additional
> counters" or something like that. They just tell you the number of
> counters the creature comes into play with.

No, but both would still apply. The Bruiser would come into play and change
your life total to 3. If it was removed with the DJ, it would leave play,
then return at the end of turn. The Bruiser comes back making your life 3
(it's an "as ~ comes into play"), and the DJ ability will follow (triggered
ability), bringing your total to 1. This all assumes, of course, that
nothing stops any of it from happening. :)

Erich
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>Now have a look at these hypothetical card:
>
>Differentworldly Journey >{1}{W} >Instant
>Remove target creature from the game. At end of turn return the
>creature to play and your life total becomes one.
>
>Lifebound Bruiser >{5} >Artifact Creature
>3/3 >As Lifebound Bruiser comes into play your life total becomes three.

They already know about this potential problem, and are taking care to make
sure it does not occur. (Since we already have Lich, we can't have another
card that can set your life total to anything OTHER than 0 as it comes into
play.)

Form of the Dragon, Biorhythm, etc., can set life totals because they are doing
so on resolving, at a time when no as-this-comes-into-play things can also be
happening.

>Neither one say anything like "instead of any other numbers your life
>total becomes" so both apply making your life total become equal to 4
>right? (I guess not.)

This is a Known Possible Design Problem, and the solution is essentially
"Don't do that". So they will not.

>My point is that the previous cards don't say "with 3 additional
>counters" or something like that. They just tell you the number of
>counters the creature comes into play with.

Right. But that is different from -setting- that number to N; it's just saying
"Oh, and there are also going to be three +1/+1 counters involved".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In news😛ine.GSO.4.61.0412061108440.4127@galjas.cs.vu.nl,
David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> rambled:
>
> On Mon, 5 Dec 2004, David DeLaney wrote:
>
>> David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, David DeLaney wrote:
>>>> David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>>>>> Say I would have 2 enchantments saying
>>>>>
>>>>> "Creature come into play with 2 +1/+1 counters." and
>>>>> "Creature come into play with 3 +1/+1 counters.".
>>>>>
>>>>> Would creatures come into play with 5 +1/+1 counters or would I
>>>>> apply timestamp order to determine the amount of counters a
>>>>> creature comes into play with?
>>>>
>>>> Neither one of these contradicts the other ...
>>>
>>> Why not? There is only one answer to the question "with how many
>>> counters does the creature come into play?" so it can't be 2 as well
>>> as 3.
>>
>> Yes, there is only one answer. But neither of these is giving the
>> WHOLE answer; neither one says anything about "ignore any other
>> effect that would also make it come into play with +1/+1 counters",
>> and more importantly, neither one says "instead of the number of
>> counters it would normally come into play with". The latter -does-
>> mean you end up with either two or three; the wording you gave,
>> though, says nothing about other counters being disallowed,
>> _including_ other +1/+1 counters.
>
> Now have a look at these hypothetical card:
>
> Differentworldly Journey
> {1}{W}
> Instant
> Remove target creature from the game. At end of turn return the
> creature to play and your life total becomes one.
>
> Lifebound Bruiser
> {5}
> Artifact Creature
> 3/3
> As Lifebound Bruiser comes into play your life total becomes three.
>
> Neither one say anything like "instead of any other numbers your life
> total becomes" so both apply making your life total become equal to 4
> right? (I guess not.)
>

I think this is different because you have 2 abilities strictly conflicting
with each other here...that is, your life total can not be 3 *and* 1 at the
same time. However, Arcbound (not Lifebound) Bruiser is perfectly able to
have 3 *and* 1 counters on it. The Otherworldly Journey ability is not
strictly conflicting with the Arcbound Bruiser's ability.

> My point is that the previous cards don't say "with 3 additional
> counters" or something like that. They just tell you the number of
> counters the creature comes into play with.

I think "additional" may be redundant, since the Arcbound creatures (and
pretty much permanent, actually) is just fine with having 3 counters, as
well as one counter. For a total of 4....as I just stated above...speaking
of redundancy....

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:

> Now have a look at these hypothetical card:
>
> Differentworldly Journey
> {1}{W}
> Instant
> Remove target creature from the game. At end of turn return the
> creature to play and your life total becomes one.
>
> Lifebound Bruiser
> {5}
> Artifact Creature
> 3/3
> As Lifebound Bruiser comes into play your life total becomes three.
>
> Neither one say anything like "instead of any other numbers your life
> total becomes" so both apply making your life total become equal to 4
> right? (I guess not.)

Lifebound Bruiser's replacement effect changes "put Lifebound Bruiser
into play" into "put Lifebound Bruiser into play and your life total
becomes three". So this would change the first hypothetical at end of
turn into "put Lifebound Bruiser into play and your life total becomes
three and your life total becomes one".

> My point is that the previous cards don't say "with 3 additional
> counters" or something like that. They just tell you the number of
> counters the creature comes into play with.

The one changes "put <creature> into play" to "put 2 +1/+1 counters on
<creature> and put <creature> into play". The other changes "put
<creature> into play" to "put 3 +1/+1 counters on <creature> and put
<creature> into play". In combination, you would have something like
"put 3 +1/+1 counters on <creature> and put 2 +1/+1 counters on
<creature> and put <creature> into play".
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Ken Briscoe wrote:

> I think this is different because you have 2 abilities strictly conflicting
> with each other here...that is, your life total can not be 3 *and* 1 at the
> same time. However, Arcbound (not Lifebound) Bruiser is perfectly able to
> have 3 *and* 1 counters on it. The Otherworldly Journey ability is not
> strictly conflicting with the Arcbound Bruiser's ability.

In your world, does *and* mean the same as "plus"? Because in my world
it doesn't.

--
David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In news😛ine.GSO.4.61.0412062029490.25703@blade016.cs.vu.nl,
David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> rambled:
>
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Ken Briscoe wrote:
>
>> I think this is different because you have 2 abilities strictly
>> conflicting with each other here...that is, your life total can not
>> be 3 *and* 1 at the same time. However, Arcbound (not Lifebound)
>> Bruiser is perfectly able to have 3 *and* 1 counters on it. The
>> Otherworldly Journey ability is not strictly conflicting with the
>> Arcbound Bruiser's ability.
>
> In your world, does *and* mean the same as "plus"? Because in my world
> it doesn't.

No, of course not. But setting your life to 3, and setting your life to 1
are mutually exclusive; you can't do both (since you can't have two life
totals). However, an Arcbound Bruiser returning to play (being removed by
Otherworldly Journey) can have 3 counters on it. *AND* it can have 1 counter
on it. In addition, it can have 3 and 1 counters on it *at the same time*.
So, to answer your question, "and" and "plus" do not necessarily mean the
same thing....however, in the Arcbound/Otherworldly Journey situation, "and"
and "plus" don't mean the same thing, but the outcome of "3 and 1" is the
same as "3 plus 1".

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Daniel W. Johnson wrote:

> The one changes "put <creature> into play" to "put 2 +1/+1 counters on
> <creature> and put <creature> into play".

Here, you are interpreting "with 2 +1/+1 counters" as "put 2 +1/+1
counters on in". This probably is the intended meaning but I don't see
why it is wrong (other than 'it isn't intended') to interpret it as
"make sure the amount of +1/+1 counters is 2".

--
David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Ken Briscoe wrote:

> In news😛ine.GSO.4.61.0412062029490.25703@blade016.cs.vu.nl,
> David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> rambled:
>>
>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Ken Briscoe wrote:
>>
>>> I think this is different because you have 2 abilities strictly
>>> conflicting with each other here...that is, your life total can not
>>> be 3 *and* 1 at the same time. However, Arcbound (not Lifebound)
>>> Bruiser is perfectly able to have 3 *and* 1 counters on it. The
>>> Otherworldly Journey ability is not strictly conflicting with the
>>> Arcbound Bruiser's ability.
>>
>> In your world, does *and* mean the same as "plus"? Because in my world
>> it doesn't.
>
> No, of course not. But setting your life to 3, and setting your life to 1
> are mutually exclusive; you can't do both (since you can't have two life
> totals). However, an Arcbound Bruiser returning to play (being removed by
> Otherworldly Journey) can have 3 counters on it. *AND* it can have 1 counter
> on it. In addition, it can have 3 and 1 counters on it *at the same time*.
> So, to answer your question, "and" and "plus" do not necessarily mean the
> same thing....however, in the Arcbound/Otherworldly Journey situation, "and"
> and "plus" don't mean the same thing, but the outcome of "3 and 1" is the
> same as "3 plus 1".

I think you see a difference between lives and counters which I don't
see. Why can you have "3 and 1" counters but can't you have "3 and 1"
lives?

--
David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In news😛ine.GSO.4.61.0412062159350.25703@blade016.cs.vu.nl,
David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> rambled:
>
> I think you see a difference between lives and counters which I don't
> see. Why can you have "3 and 1" counters but can't you have "3 and 1"
> lives?

Because of the difference between "plus" and "and". You can certainly have
"3 plus 1" life points. But you can't have "3 and 1" life points. How can
you have two life totals (3, 1)? This is different from counters, because
counters can accumulate, while life *totals* (not points) can not. A
creature can have 3 counters. It can have 1 counter. And it can have both
sets of counters (3,1) at the same time. (Which is, obviously, a total of 4
counters.) You can not have a life total of 3 and a life total of 1. Because
this represents two sets of life totals (again, 3,1). The game only provides
for one score - your ONE life total. This is what I meant by having a life
total of 3 be mutually exclusive from a life total of 1. A player can't have
*both* life totals. But a creature with 1 counter can also have 3 counters
on it.

Any better with that explanation?

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In <31jn22F3cfi2pU1@individual.net> "Ken Briscoe" <youcant@sendmespam.com> writes:

> ...that is, your life total can not be 3 *and* 1 at the same time.

Not necessarily. There is precedent for this sort of thing.

A while back, there was a thread about how you could get multiple creature
cards imprinted on a Duplicant, and thus the Duplicant could have two (or
more) *different* P/Ts at the *same* time.

I think there was a similar thread about CMCs for split cards. A card
could have two different CMCs at the same time.

--
John Gordon "Between BST melee, their spells, their warders' melee,
gordon@panix.com and their warders' procs, they put out enough damage
to make monks cry." -- Dark Tyger
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Oh no! It's David de Kloet!
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
>
> > The one changes "put <creature> into play" to "put 2 +1/+1 counters on
> > <creature> and put <creature> into play".
>
> Here, you are interpreting "with 2 +1/+1 counters" as "put 2 +1/+1
> counters on in". This probably is the intended meaning but I don't see
> why it is wrong (other than 'it isn't intended') to interpret it as
> "make sure the amount of +1/+1 counters is 2".

What other reason is needed? I suppose they can clarify the wording (or
the rulebook - a note somewhere saying "comes into play with X foo
counters" means "put X foo counters on it") the next time they get
around to it if they deem it necessary, but I don't see the problem.
Even interpreting it your way, it's hardly the first time they've said
"play it this way, regardless of whether you think it's strictly what
the card says".
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 01:33:46 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org>
wrote:

>Oh no! It's David de Kloet!
>> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
>>
>> > The one changes "put <creature> into play" to "put 2 +1/+1 counters on
>> > <creature> and put <creature> into play".
>>
>> Here, you are interpreting "with 2 +1/+1 counters" as "put 2 +1/+1
>> counters on in". This probably is the intended meaning but I don't see
>> why it is wrong (other than 'it isn't intended') to interpret it as
>> "make sure the amount of +1/+1 counters is 2".
>
>What other reason is needed? I suppose they can clarify the wording (or
>the rulebook - a note somewhere saying "comes into play with X foo
>counters" means "put X foo counters on it") the next time they get
>around to it if they deem it necessary, but I don't see the problem.
>Even interpreting it your way, it's hardly the first time they've said
>"play it this way, regardless of whether you think it's strictly what
>the card says".

yeah i hate those rules, especialy as they seam to only affect realy
wacky combos that if you manage to assemble you should be able to win.
(like the quicksilver elemental + arcslogger + march of the machines +
artifact that stores cards for you till you return them to play)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Oh no! It's Gareth Pye!
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 01:33:46 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <no.way@jose.org>
> wrote:
>
> >Oh no! It's David de Kloet!
> >> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Daniel W. Johnson wrote:
> >>
> >> > The one changes "put <creature> into play" to "put 2 +1/+1 counters on
> >> > <creature> and put <creature> into play".
> >>
> >> Here, you are interpreting "with 2 +1/+1 counters" as "put 2 +1/+1
> >> counters on in". This probably is the intended meaning but I don't see
> >> why it is wrong (other than 'it isn't intended') to interpret it as
> >> "make sure the amount of +1/+1 counters is 2".
> >
> >What other reason is needed? I suppose they can clarify the wording (or
> >the rulebook - a note somewhere saying "comes into play with X foo
> >counters" means "put X foo counters on it") the next time they get
> >around to it if they deem it necessary, but I don't see the problem.
> >Even interpreting it your way, it's hardly the first time they've said
> >"play it this way, regardless of whether you think it's strictly what
> >the card says".
>
> yeah i hate those rules, especialy as they seam to only affect realy
> wacky combos that if you manage to assemble you should be able to win.
> (like the quicksilver elemental + arcslogger + march of the machines +
> artifact that stores cards for you till you return them to play)

No intention to be rude or anything, but did you reply to the right
post? The above doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything I
said.
 
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