Conroe Setup, 5000+ Budget. NO bottlenecks. Plz Critique.

[quantumsheep]

octop8 - When you say it doesnt work with SLI are u talking about a Software issue? or a Hardware. ALso in terms of performence is the 1950XTX in Crossfire which isnt out yet but i am keeping my eye out for it, Better than the 7950X2 x 2 in SLI which is QUAD? my thinking is maybe the 7950x2 in SLI=Quad is better for me because im running resolutions in excess of 1900x1200 widescreen. BUt Crossfire gives me better image quality because they can do HDR and AA at the same time, but can it handle it in terms of 30+ FPS.

At the moment it is impossible to run 2 x 7950x2 due to nvidia's drivers not being properly configured yet. They're leaving quad sli as an Ultra High end toy that only OEM builders are allowed to sell. According to nvidia this is because Quad SLi is too complicated for home users to set up, or something along those lines.

 

[majoravatar]

Besides the facts presented concerning why RAID 0 is faster than normal, non-RAID, I completely disagree with the previous post (SupremeLaw). He is right about one thing. Most people are wrong about MTBF in RAID 0. Halfling the time is not the correct way to go about calculating this. To understand the actual MTBF, you have to understand the distribution of mean failure times. Manufacturers model MTBF rates as Gaussian (normal or bell curves, if you prefer) random variables and the MTBF is simply the mean of this curve. Therefore, let's just say that the MTBF for your hard drive is 100,000 hours. If the variance of the curve is low (which it's not, but for the sake of argument, let's say it is) then we might say that there is a 25% chance of the drive failing after 90,000 hours and say, a 1% chance of the drive failing after 80,000 hours. If you RAID a pair of these drives, then the first one to fail causes the system to fail, this is true. However, while the actual length of time you could expect to operate the drives without a failure is reduced (probabilistically), it should not be reduced much (given, again, a low variance).

Having said this, most people half the MTBF figure because this assumes the lowest possible MTBF. If the variance is so large that the 1% figure is at 0 hours (and on the upper end 200,000 hours) then this will be true. A more realistic figure for real hard drives is about 75% of the single-drive MTBF. It's a pity that manufacturers don't provide sample variance figures, but that would require more testing (=$).

Even if the jelly bean analogue were true, the probability of drawing exactly one jelly bean from 100 beans in 2 picks is 1.99%.

Just a thought...

 

[DreDawgg06]

Thank you for clearing up the hard drive questions and it hope everyone else has learned that RAID in fact can only be beneficial since hard drive failure will occur with or without raid it all depends on manufacture defects or over heating, excess vibration.

THank you guys for your posts, does anyone else have answers to my other questions?

 

[Zog]

Woh...some serious drive down the statistical path...

For what is worth, I prefer to think more in terms of Chaos or , maybe Karma...

On the jelly beans, did you consider if you retunr and the jelly bean you have picked to the jar each time, shook it, and then reached in againg, youmay never ever get the white one.....Demming Funnel Principal....

 

[HDDFreak]

At the moment it is impossible to run 2 x 7950x2 due to nvidia's drivers not being properly configured yet. They're leaving quad sli as an Ultra High end toy that only OEM builders are allowed to sell. According to nvidia this is because Quad SLi is too complicated for home users to set up, or something along those lines.

Actually, nvidia now has beta drivers which allow quad sli to be used by the masses. Hurrah

 

[weskurtz81]

I am just curious about a couple of things..... why do you need to spend $5000 USD on a pc? And why do you need a 1KW PSU? Are you buying things just so you can buy them and say that you own these things? You are wasting your money IMO..... but obviously it's your money, so do as you wish with it. If you aren't overclocking, you don't need water cooling, or that memory. Regardless of overclocking or not, you do not need a 1KW psu.... a good 400-500W PSU would work fine. A good one, not some cheap one with crappy 12v output. Speaking from experience..... there is no great benefit from raiding 2 raptors.... 1 is fast enough.... I did not notice any real world increase. You could build a pc for 1/4 to 1/5 of the price and it would play games just the same..... if that is what you want it for..... just trying to save you money.... it's obviously your call though.

 

[quantumsheep]

At the moment it is impossible to run 2 x 7950x2 due to nvidia's drivers not being properly configured yet. They're leaving quad sli as an Ultra High end toy that only OEM builders are allowed to sell. According to nvidia this is because Quad SLi is too complicated for home users to set up, or something along those lines.

Actually, nvidia now has beta drivers which allow quad sli to be used by the masses. Hurrah

When did that happen? I haven't seen any major articles about it....

 

[chuckshissle]

Get Corsair XMS for your rams and BFG for your graphics card.

 

[nottheking]

Well, I might have a few suggestions...

First, as far as the graphics card goes, I might try to look for something that will ostensibly have the best re-sale value in a year or so. The 7950GX2 possibly won't be that, primarily given that it's high value is due almost entirely to it's #1 perforamnce spot; as soon as something tops it, (the X1950XTX won't top it, but come frighteningly close for a single-GPU card) expect the price to come crashing down, and hence, the money you can get out of it; you may be able to spare $5000US+ for a rig now, but every few hundred dollars can help, especially when you KNOW you'll be replacing something soon.

Also, as for the hard drive, Raptors are indeed fast, but now, it seems that their purpose is starting to wear thin; Seagate's Perpendicular Recording drives not only come in sizes of up to 750GB, and cost far less per GB than a Raptor, but provide both read and write performance that gives the Raptor a run for its money; (while absolutely crushing older, non-perpendicular, 7200 RPM drives) I'd certainly go with such a drive, or perhaps a pair of them. (or, heck, a 0+1 or 1+0 RAID array)

 

[Dante_Jose_Cuervo]

It may be obselete in gaming comps but in graphics workstations they are a boon and don't even start on servers. Servers need more than 2 PSUs! Sometimes as many as 4! So don't generalize too much. Now I know I'm going to get mauled because this is a gaming comp forum but still... just thought you should know.

 

[clue69less]

Regardless of overclocking or not, you do not need a 1KW psu.... a good 400-500W PSU would work fine.

Didn't he say he wanted to future-proof for DX-10? A 400 watt PS is not really the best plan for a DX-10 system.

Speaking from experience..... there is no great benefit from raiding 2 raptors.... 1 is fast enough.... I did not notice any real world increase.

Could be that your apps don't provide enough demand to expose the RAID0 advantage. Benchmarks clearly show the RAID0 advantage and I cas see it on my video rig.

You could build a pc for 1/4 to 1/5 of the price and it would play games just the same.....

Really? You think a $1K system can compete with a $5K system? A $1K system may meet your personal quality standards, but if you want to play demanding games with eye candy on, a $1K system will be lacking compared to a ~$2K or more expensive system. Go for a largish LCD and the differences are greatly exagerated.

if that is what you want it for..... just trying to save you money.... it's obviously your call though.

I understand your point and believe that you have taken it too far to the budget extreme given the OP's goal set. But is there anything wrong with someone wanting more computational power than they need right now? I like the approach of building in some future-proofing.

 

[Dante_Jose_Cuervo]

But what would it take to run SCSI on my Current setup if i choose to get one? Does anyone here have any experience with SCSI and is it really worth it for a 15,000 RPM?

Oy... I do have some experience with SCSI. Now it does give you tremendous performance but it's a little more complicated than IDE or SATA. Now I'm not saying you have to be a genius to figure it out you just need to know a couple things. Now say you want to use that SCSI HDD as a boot disc, well then you'll need to seet its ID at "0" and the controller at "7". Now if you want to use that HDD as a storage drive and have the boot disc somewhere else you need to give the controller "0" and the HDD something else. Preferably 1 so you won't confuse the computer.

If you want 15K rpms then you can go with SAS (Serial Attached SCSI). Now to run this you need a SAS controller card and some SAS HDDs... which you can also hook SATA drives up to the controller if you want.

Now to the reason why SCSIs are faster... no zero-track. Zero-track (I think that's what it's called) is standard in all HDDs except SCSI and SAS. What it is is this... between reads and writes the spindle has to go to the outer edge of the platter... not with the aforementioned.

So if you're willing to spend the money on these HDDs and get some nice performance out of them... go ahead... if not... well then that works too.

 

[Logicsequence]

Also something to consider, the 7950GX2 is not officially compatible with the ASUS P5W DH. Nvidia does not list that mobo as compatible on there website....

 

[LordChaos]

My suggestion would be to consider a Zalman TNN500AF case, which is cooled by heat pipes and natural convection over the outer panels. It's silent, which may seem like a small deal when you're used to computer noise but is a real delight once you've experienced it.

There are limitations: 100W TDP on the processor, but Conroe runs well under that. Also, not all motherboards are compatible and Zalman's list of motherboards is out of date. Also no capability for dual high-power graphic cards. Power supply is a good 400W one, which is enough for most purposes.

 

[weskurtz81]

There is really no such thing as future proofing.... people might think they ca accomplish this, but the companies make sure that we don't by changing standards. I am pretty sure, that for about $1500 you can build a PC that would play game @ 1600x1200 as well as a $5000 dollar pc. That is my only real point. I just feel that he would be wasting his money, if he wants to game @ that resolution, all he needs is a good monitor, and a good video card. A 1900XT would do it. You can get those refurb for under $300 on newegg. I just don't really think anyone should build a comptuer today based around what they are planning to do a year from now. Maybe you can, but more times than not, you will be out of luck, since standards seem to be changing more and more often as times passes. My suggestion is to build it for what you currently need it for. I just hate to see people throwing money away..... and a $5000 comptuer seems to be a big waste of money, no matter how much you have.... so I will never recommend someone to waste that much money on a computer that they DO NOT need. It's just against my morals..... sorry.

Edit: I probably should have raised the bottom up $500, but my point is not that it can compete in benchmarks..... but that the performance difference would probably not be noticable.

Edit2: I am not saying there is not a performance difference at all.... just saying that unless I benchmarked it..... I didn't really notice it.... and don't think it's worth the price. But.... if you are just in to spending as much as you can..... then by all means.... buy as many of them as you want. And sure the synthetic benchmarks do show a pretty good difference.... but there is a big difference between synthetics and real world.... at least from what I have seen there is.

 

[clue69less]

There is really no such thing as future proofing....

No guarantees, naturally, but when you KNOW that DX-10 cards are gonna be power hungry, recommending a 400 watt PS is not on target.

I am pretty sure, that for about $1500 you can build a PC that would play game @ 1600x1200 as well as a $5000 dollar pc.

Earlier, you set your lower limit at 1/5th of $5k. That's $1K, not $1.5K. Big difference. Huge difference, in fact. Still, $2K is more reasonable for a DX-10-ready game box that runs difficult games well at high res.

A 1900XT would do it. You can get those refurb for under $300 on newegg.

You can recommend refurbs if you want. Not interested myself.

I just don't really think anyone should build a comptuer today based around what they are planning to do a year from now.

Today, my photo rig has ~300Gb of images on it. Within a year, it will have 350, maybe 380. I'm going to plan for the future if I'm building a box today and have at least 500GB of space allocated. And I'll apply the same logic to power supply planning so a DX-10 purchase will not require a PS upgrade. Etc. You can live in the present and I won't criticize you, but the OP clearly defined the plan and he's looking forward. His budget does not offend my own sensibilities. For example, I don't see the need to go beyond ~$2.5K on a game box, but if he does, it's HIS money.

It's just against my morals..... sorry.

Morals? You mean value judgements about a PC purchase?

Edit: I probably should have raised the bottom up $500, but my point is not that it can compete in benchmarks..... but that the performance difference would probably not be noticable.

For some folks, benchmarks are very important.

Edit2: I am not saying there is not a performance difference at all.... just saying that unless I benchmarked it..... I didn't really notice it.... and don't think it's worth the price.

I see you went to Home Depot and cashed in at the hedge trimmer sale.

 

[weskurtz81]

I just tend to not suggest that people waste money.... EOL.

 

[clue69less]

I just tend to not suggest that people waste money.... EOL.

And I suggest they don't buy stuff that they will have to replace in 6 months...

 

[mcgruff]

If you're looking for a no-compromise gaming experience I'd seriously consider a projector. Can't beat a 9ft screen for immersion 😉 Sound is important too so I'd be thinking about good quality hi fi bits and a decent sound card. It's not all about MHz...

 

[Dante_Jose_Cuervo]

You know... asetek has some really cool cases that are integrated with their vapochill CPU coolers... just some food for thought.

 

[quantumsheep]

If you're looking for a no-compromise gaming experience I'd seriously consider a projector. Can't beat a 9ft screen for immersion 😉 Sound is important too so I'd be thinking about good quality hi fi bits and a decent sound card. It's not all about MHz...

You my friend have just made a very very good point!

 

[LordChaos]

I agree on the sound quality. At first I used my Power Computing Mac clone with a set of AR Powered Partner speakers and thought they were pretty good. Went along happy for a time, then as an experiment connected the system to a Cambridge Soundworks Model 12 portable stereo system, and that really opened my ears. Far beyond "computer speakers" sound. Now I have the PC (my music server) connected to a Sony ES-line preamp and power amp, with Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble speakers. It's a very nice setup. 350GB of Windows lossless music at my fingertips! At least it would be if it weren't a Pentium 4 room heater.

 

[quantumsheep]

I agree on the sound quality. At first I used my Power Computing Mac clone with a set of AR Powered Partner speakers and thought they were pretty good. Went along happy for a time, then as an experiment connected the system to a Cambridge Soundworks Model 12 portable stereo system, and that really opened my ears. Far beyond "computer speakers" sound. Now I have the PC (my music server) connected to a Sony ES-line preamp and power amp, with Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble speakers. It's a very nice setup. 350GB of Windows lossless music at my fingertips! At least it would be if it weren't a Pentium 4 room heater.

If you think that those speakers are amazing, you should try my Wilson and Benesch ARC speakers with my Audionet SAM V2 Amp and Audionet ART CD player. Then factor in some Nordost cabling and you have pure hifi bliss.

Merely looking at it is enough to make me cream in my pants.

I'll provide some piccies if anyone wants them.

 

[clue69less]

Merely looking at it is enough to make me cream in my pants. I'll provide some piccies if anyone wants them.

Of your creamed pants? No thanks, sikko!

My dad and I have traveled from time to time to the CES and I always get a kick out of the visual aspects. Like the Dynaudio room for example. ~$200K for a two channel audio system that really didn't sound all that great but it sure looked impressive. Or the $75K pre channel mono amps in the Wilson Audio room. Now THAT rig sounds incredible.

 

[Zog]

Fully agree with LogicSequence. Your proposed Motherboard.....this is a beatiful board. I especially like the remote control unti for on off....

Anyway, it is fairly clear that this is a board designed for Crossfire.

Maybe you should pick up and ATI GPU or 2 ?