Continual Flame - Permanent?

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Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
least. With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any other
light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for street lights in
cities as well...
 
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Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
> when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
> Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
> least. With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
> something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any
> other light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for
> street lights in cities as well...

In Eberron, it is. There are members of the Magewright NPC class who work as
travelling lamplighters, going from town to town and making permanent lamps
for the residents, and major cities are illuminated by Everbright Lanterns,
essentially Continual Flame items but produced as Wondrous Items so that
they can't be permanently dispelled. As for all adventurers carrying them,
it's right there in the standard equipment list in the PHB - Everburning
Torch, 110 gp.

--
Mark.
 
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"Andrew James Alan Welty" <andrew@cci-29palms.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.13.21.06.40.918644@cci-29palms.com...
> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
> when most require Permanency to be cast?

Because it's a highly, highly specialised 0-level spell, essentially. It's
a single-purpose zero-level effect with a huge duration. Where would you
place it?

- David Prokopetz.
 
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Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
> when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
> Light used up the material it was cast on,

No it didn't. Maybe in 2nd ed they did that, but not in 1e or the
original.




--
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/^\
;;;
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"Andrew James Alan Welty" <andrew@cci-29palms.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.13.21.06.40.918644@cci-29palms.com...
> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
> when most require Permanency to be cast?

Because it is a cantrip?

> Used to be the old Continual Light used up the material it was cast on,
but even that took years at
> least.

Thousands. Ie; so long as to be irrelevant. There were no game mechanics
for it.

> With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
> something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any other
> light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for street lights in
> cities as well...

Power Word: Duh

-Michael
 
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On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:06:41 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
<andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:

>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>least.

No it didn't. It's the exact same spell just with a changed name.

> Could be used for street lights in cities as well...

And should be.
 
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Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>Andrew James Alan Welty <andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:
>
>>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>>least.
>
>No it didn't. It's the exact same spell just with a changed name.

Actually, it did in 2E. As flavor text. I suppose casting 2E
Continual Light on the back of Cthulhu's head several dozen times
while he's sleeping the sleep of centuries might have a little
effect eventually... :)


>> Could be used for street lights in cities as well...
>
>And should be.

Except that it's really not as bright in 3E as it was in 1E or 2E
(we have Daylight as the "other half" of the old Continual Light).
And costs more, unless you call a Lantern Archon as a (Lesser) Planar
Ally or an Improved Familiar...

Donald
 
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Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
> when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
> Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
> least. With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
> something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any other
> light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for street lights in
> cities as well...

I don't see how it completely avoids the need for any other light
source. Our group of 10-13 level characters and our group of 6-8 level
characters both have continual flame light sources, but we only use them
in absolute emergencies. Normally we have daylight or sunrods. Take a
look...continual flame only has a 10' radius, while most encounters
happen more than 10' away. If you start out 10' from that fomorian
giant, you're screwed! Even against orcs, you won't be too happy with
10' of vision (as they skewer you with javelins from 60' away and you
can't even tell where they are to fight back).

Alex
--
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Don't read anything into them or you may be required to compensate me
for violation of copyright. (I do not speak for my employer.)
 
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No, no, no. Your rogue or other stealth specialist has a pouch full of
rocks with continual flame on it. He throws the first one 80' in front
of him down the dark corridor, moves forward 20' throws another one 80'
in front of him (20' in front of the first stone), etc. When he gets
to the first stone, he picks it up and throws it forward. When you get
to caverns/rooms, "seed" the area with the rocks by scattering
handfuls.

(alternatively, have your Unseen Servant carry them, or put it on a
Floating Disc in front of you; at 10th level, both spells last 10 hours
and have a range of 50'.)

Continual Flame is Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 2, not a cantrip.
I personally wouldn't be opposed to a house rule that limits the
duration (say, to one month + <some amount per level>) but only if the
material component (50 gp ruby) is dropped to something lower. It's
not exactly an overpowered spell; I just don't want parties leaving
trails of Continual Flame in the woods (which some people would do,
even at 50 gp per spell)
 
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alordofchaos@yahoo.com wrote:
> No, no, no. Your rogue or other stealth specialist has a pouch full
of
> rocks with continual flame on it. He throws the first one 80' in
front
> of him down the dark corridor, moves forward 20' throws another one
80'
> in front of him (20' in front of the first stone), etc. When he gets
> to the first stone, he picks it up and throws it forward. When you
get
> to caverns/rooms, "seed" the area with the rocks by scattering
> handfuls.

Heh - reminds me of Electroflares in the old X-Com
computer game. Really annoying to police those
up every time, but otherwise you had to keep
buying them.

Walt Smith
Firelock on DALNet
 
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firelock_ny@hotmail.com wrote:
> Heh - reminds me of Electroflares in the old X-Com
> computer game. Really annoying to police those
> up every time, but otherwise you had to keep
> buying them.

I did something similiar when I played Warlords. With the Fog of War on,
we'd leave scouts peppered all over so that we could see the enemy from the
map.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk ..."
-till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu, consul de designers
consul@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>
 
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<alordofchaos@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110819905.809316.194850@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> No, no, no. Your rogue or other stealth specialist has a pouch full of
> rocks with continual flame on it. He throws the first one 80' in front
> of him down the dark corridor, moves forward 20' throws another one 80'
> in front of him (20' in front of the first stone), etc. When he gets
> to the first stone, he picks it up and throws it forward. When you get
> to caverns/rooms, "seed" the area with the rocks by scattering
> handfuls.
>
> (alternatively, have your Unseen Servant carry them, or put it on a
> Floating Disc in front of you; at 10th level, both spells last 10 hours
> and have a range of 50'.)
>

Or just replace the light source in a Bullseye lantern with the spell.
 
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Marshall wrote:

> <alordofchaos@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1110819905.809316.194850@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>No, no, no. Your rogue or other stealth specialist has a pouch full of
>>rocks with continual flame on it. He throws the first one 80' in front
>>of him down the dark corridor, moves forward 20' throws another one 80'
>>in front of him (20' in front of the first stone), etc. When he gets
>>to the first stone, he picks it up and throws it forward. When you get
>>to caverns/rooms, "seed" the area with the rocks by scattering
>>handfuls.
>>
>>(alternatively, have your Unseen Servant carry them, or put it on a
>>Floating Disc in front of you; at 10th level, both spells last 10 hours
>>and have a range of 50'.)
>
> Or just replace the light source in a Bullseye lantern with the spell.

I've always wondered if that should actually work with magical light.
Does the torch create "light" in the area of effect, or emanate
light from its origin point. I'd assume the latter considering how it
interacts with the "dim lighting" and "low-light vision" rules.

On that note, anyone remember how far away a torch can be seen
(_not_ seen by) in various light conditions?
 
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firelock_ny@hotmail.com wrote:
> alordofchaos@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>No, no, no. Your rogue or other stealth specialist has a pouch full
>
> of
>
>>rocks with continual flame on it. He throws the first one 80' in
>
> front
>
>>of him down the dark corridor, moves forward 20' throws another one
>
> 80'
>
>>in front of him (20' in front of the first stone), etc. When he gets
>>to the first stone, he picks it up and throws it forward. When you
>
> get
>
>>to caverns/rooms, "seed" the area with the rocks by scattering
>>handfuls.
>
>
> Heh - reminds me of Electroflares in the old X-Com
> computer game. Really annoying to police those
> up every time, but otherwise you had to keep
> buying them.
>
> Walt Smith
> Firelock on DALNet
>

Electroflares? That what I used incendiary rounds for. Burn, baby, burn.

CH
 
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Ophidian wrote:
> Marshall wrote:
>
>> <alordofchaos@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1110819905.809316.194850@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> No, no, no. Your rogue or other stealth specialist has a pouch
>>> full of rocks with continual flame on it. He throws the first one
>>> 80' in front of him down the dark corridor, moves forward 20'
>>> throws another one 80' in front of him (20' in front of the first
>>> stone), etc. When he gets to the first stone, he picks it up and
>>> throws it forward. When you get to caverns/rooms, "seed" the area
>>> with the rocks by scattering handfuls.
>>>
>>> (alternatively, have your Unseen Servant carry them, or put it on a
>>> Floating Disc in front of you; at 10th level, both spells last 10
>>> hours and have a range of 50'.)
>>
>> Or just replace the light source in a Bullseye lantern with the
>> spell.
>
> I've always wondered if that should actually work with magical light.
> Does the torch create "light" in the area of effect, or emanate
> light from its origin point. I'd assume the latter considering how it
> interacts with the "dim lighting" and "low-light vision" rules.
>
> On that note, anyone remember how far away a torch can be seen
> (_not_ seen by) in various light conditions?

As I recall, it's ten times the distance to which it illuminates. Not sure
offhand if that's the clear illumination distance or the shadowy
illumination distance.

--
Mark.
 
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Alex Johnson wrote:
>
> Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
> > Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
> > when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
> > Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
> > least. With a permanent duration most characters would carry around
> > something with this cast on it, completely avoiding the need for any other
> > light source (torches, lanterns, ect.) Could be used for street lights in
> > cities as well...
>
> I don't see how it completely avoids the need for any other light
> source. Our group of 10-13 level characters and our group of 6-8 level
> characters both have continual flame light sources, but we only use them
> in absolute emergencies. Normally we have daylight or sunrods. Take a
> look...continual flame only has a 10' radius, while most encounters
> happen more than 10' away. If you start out 10' from that fomorian
> giant, you're screwed! Even against orcs, you won't be too happy with
> 10' of vision (as they skewer you with javelins from 60' away and you
> can't even tell where they are to fight back).

Nit: continual flame has a radius of 20 feet, and
provides shadowy illumination to 40 feet.

-Bluto
 
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~consul <consul@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote:
> firelock_ny@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Heh - reminds me of Electroflares in the old X-Com
>> computer game. Really annoying to police those
>> up every time, but otherwise you had to keep
>> buying them.
>
> I did something similiar when I played Warlords. With the Fog of War on,
> we'd leave scouts peppered all over so that we could see the enemy from the
> map.

That one makes sense. That's (part of) what scouts are *for*.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13
 
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On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 22:47:01 GMT, Sea Wasp
<seaobviouswasp@sgeobviousinc.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Andrew James Alan Welty wrote:
> > Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
> > when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
> > Light used up the material it was cast on,
>
> No it didn't. Maybe in 2nd ed they did that, but not in 1e or the
> original.

From the AD&D2 PHB: "This spell eventually consumes the material it is
cast upon, but the process takes far longer than the time in the
typical campaign. Extremely hard and expensive materials can last
hundreds or even thousands of years."

IOW, it wasn't really much of an inpediment to the creation of magical
street lamps, especially given the area a Continual Light spell
illuminated.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
 
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> In Eberron, it is. There are members of the Magewright NPC class who work as
> travelling lamplighters, going from town to town and making permanent lamps
> for the residents, and major cities are illuminated by Everbright Lanterns,
> essentially Continual Flame items but produced as Wondrous Items so that
> they can't be permanently dispelled. As for all adventurers carrying them,
> it's right there in the standard equipment list in the PHB - Everburning
> Torch, 110 gp.

Didn't say it wasn't easily available. Just think it shouldn't be
permanent.
 
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>> Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>> when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>> Light used up the material it was cast on,
>
> No it didn't. Maybe in 2nd ed they did that, but not in 1e or the
> original.

Yup, in AD&D 2nd edition it did. Didn't in AD&D.
 
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On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:34:11 +0000, Matt Frisch wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:06:41 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
> <andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:
>
>>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>>least.
>
> No it didn't. It's the exact same spell just with a changed name.

Nope. AD&D 2nd edition version used up the materials, AD&D version
didn't. Didn't have any material component in the AD&D version, also
range was different.
 
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> I personally wouldn't be opposed to a house rule that limits the
> duration (say, to one month + <some amount per level>) but only if the
> material component (50 gp ruby) is dropped to something lower. It's
> not exactly an overpowered spell; I just don't want parties leaving
> trails of Continual Flame in the woods (which some people would do,
> even at 50 gp per spell)

That's all I was getting at, a limited duration for the spell. For
myself, I think darkness should play more of a roll, this spell takes a
lot of that away.
 
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"Andrew James Alan Welty" <andrew@cci-29palms.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.15.21.45.51.727127@cci-29palms.com...
>> I personally wouldn't be opposed to a house rule that limits the
>> duration (say, to one month + <some amount per level>) but only if the
>> material component (50 gp ruby) is dropped to something lower. It's
>> not exactly an overpowered spell; I just don't want parties leaving
>> trails of Continual Flame in the woods (which some people would do,
>> even at 50 gp per spell)
>
> That's all I was getting at, a limited duration for the spell. For
> myself, I think darkness should play more of a roll, this spell takes a
> lot of that away.

How so? It does not exactly illuminate a great distance.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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"Andrew James Alan Welty" <andrew@cci-29palms.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.03.15.21.39.32.532767@cci-29palms.com...
>> In Eberron, it is. There are members of the Magewright NPC class who work
>> as
>> travelling lamplighters, going from town to town and making permanent
>> lamps
>> for the residents, and major cities are illuminated by Everbright
>> Lanterns,
>> essentially Continual Flame items but produced as Wondrous Items so that
>> they can't be permanently dispelled. As for all adventurers carrying
>> them,
>> it's right there in the standard equipment list in the PHB - Everburning
>> Torch, 110 gp.
>
> Didn't say it wasn't easily available. Just think it shouldn't be
> permanent.

For 50 gp? It certainly should.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 13:43:18 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
<andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:

>On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:34:11 +0000, Matt Frisch wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:06:41 -0800, Andrew James Alan Welty
>> <andrew@cci-29palms.com> scribed into the ether:
>>
>>>Does anyone wonder why this low level (2nd or 3rd) spell is permanent,
>>>when most require Permanency to be cast? Used to be the old Continual
>>>Light used up the material it was cast on, but even that took years at
>>>least.
>>
>> No it didn't. It's the exact same spell just with a changed name.
>
>Nope. AD&D 2nd edition version used up the materials,

That's not quite the "old" version, however. It would be the "last"
version.

The "old" version is 1E, where nothing of the sort happened.