Cooling advice for custom htpc (custom chassis)

[Brett Ruttler]

Hello

I'm planning on building myself an HTPC/SteamOS box. I'm not bothered too much about epic gaming performance because I'm planning on building a heavy lifter later on (awaiting the new AMD Zen core) and using Steam's game streaming features to play games in the lounge that are being rendered in the office (cool stuff)

So anyway with much deliberation I have come to the conclusion that AMD's 7870k apu, coupled with some good quality, high performance memory will be more than adequate. I don't believe I have any real need for a discrete GPU to gain the performance levels that I want.

The biggest issue is to do with cooling.

So I'm building a completely custom chassis anyway, a good friend of mine is a mechanical design engineer and has contacts in the industry to get the panels laser cut, brushed and anodised relatively cheaply. None of the mini-itx cases out there, except perhaps the Node 202, looks like it belongs in the TV cabinet. My idea is for a chassis that looks right at home next to the BluRay player and the 5.1 amplifer whilst still looking really cool - I'm thinking brushed black aluminium top and sides and a zebrawood veneered face

I want it to be as shallow as possible, as close to 7cm as can be. I also want it to be almost silent.

So yea I'm pretty much asking for a gold-plated unicorn that speaks 6 languages.

I've seen a number of CPU coolers that look good, most of all the Zalman 8900 which is both low profile, high performance and quiet.

An alternative that I had considered was the Corsair H60. Bear with me on this.

I was thinking that I could place the rad sideways, beside the motherboard (on the right or left), upside down. so the fan blows air upwards through the rad, drawing air in through vents on the bottom of the case (which will stand up on rubber feet approx 10mm high) and out through vents on the top of the case. The hoses then come out the bottom of the rad, get curved up through a gap between the rad and the motherboard, twisted over and down onto the pump housing/block. so looking front on, the hoses would go from rad to apu in a tilda shape: ~

Can anyone comment on the flexibility of the H60 hoses? What's the minimum radius I can curve the hoses at without kinking them?

So this is a crazy idea I know, and the H60 has a terrible reputation for cooling performance. BUT.

My thought is this - cooling performance of an H60, although bad compared to cheaper, really big air coolers is likely to be better than the colling performance of the Zalman - can anyone comment on that? I am thinking the Zalman will offer no room for O/C whatsoever.

I'm also thinking that it is likely to be quieter than the Zalman - can anyone comment on that too?

I know that the addition of the rad will increase the overall size of the case, but at the same time it should allow the case to remain fairly shallow whilst still maintaining a (hopefully) very good heat transfer to noise ratio.

Bearing in mind that the end goal here is an Extremely Premium feel to the chassis; a relatively heavy machine that still feels compact with an abolutely minimal noise level is very important to me.

I think the Zalman would require a slightly taller chassis than the H60 but would not require such high-off-the-ground rubber feet. I also think that the H60 would provide more effective cooling but natually would require a bigger chassis overall.

Does anyone have any experience with these cooling options that would help in my decision making process??

I notice at the end of wriitng this that Zalman also offer an 'extreme' edition of their cooler which features a fan with a higher top speed - naturally this would be more effective at cooling with a higher noise level. In real world terms, how loud is 25 dba? or 35 for that matter?

Thanks very much for reading thus far!

B

 

[MasterHiFi]

Hi BR,

Wow. That is a crazy rig you are proposing.

Here's the bad news: I can't comment on the H60 vs the Zalman, nor can I tell you how flexible the hoses will be in the configuration you're proposing (it is probably hard for anyone to give a realistic answer without having more than a visual impression of what you describe).

But here is what meager help I may be able to offer: I think that you are trying way too hard for the type of system you want.

Firstly, there are a number of sharp looking "stereo receiver" style cases available, with thick black aluminum faceplates, volume knobs, digital displays. I worked in hi-fi for many years and some I would be hard pressed to identify as computers. They really look like audio components.

Here's another thought, and this is just from experience: you might be loading too much on yourself, too the point that the challenges you have proposed may make you lose interest in actually finishing.

If you and your friend can bang out a top rate case in a couple of days, then hell, make me one. But chances are it will be a lot more difficult than just bending and coating some aluminum. That's why good cases are so few and far between. But maybe it's no problem for you, I have no idea.

But in light of that little tidbit you dropped right at the beginning, I can make at least one solid recommendation: if you're building a "heavy lifter", and this is primarily for Home Theater, and some Steam games previously rendered further upstream, as you say, then, IMO, you are trying way too hard.

HTPC doesn't require a whole lot of computing power. There are a whole boatload of people out there turning their old Pentium and Core 2 Duos into HTPC's - and they're really fast.

I'm in the midst of an HTPC myself, and I know I've way overshot the mark with an i7-2600.

But we love to over-engineer. That's half the fun. But here's where the engineering comes in. Beefy processors - all good. More than 8GB of RAM and you might as well just give RAM away to the next person walking down the street. Overclocking? Absolutely not!

The main goal with an HTPC is lots of quiet. There is no reason in the world to over-clock your CPU or your GPU. In fact, I'd recommend under-clocking your CPU. Keep fans from ever having to kick on.

Myself, I'm using passive cooling on my CPU. I have a fanless GPU, and aside from from the power supply, I have two 60 mm fans. I do have to perform a mod, however, as the fans come with the case and run at constant RPMs, so I've got to tie them into the board so I can control them, as I'll only want to run them at half speed.

It's very distracting to have ambient noise creeping into the listening space, particularly if you're watching an intense movie and all of the sudden it gets really quiet. Or digging some tunes and then that passage comes along that you love, but it's real low.

And in some instances, noise in the system can bleed into the cabling and right into your audio channels.

These are the considerations when it comes to HTPC - quite the opposite of a powerful gaming rig.

Which brings me to my next, and last point: if you're going to build a workhorse, then save all of the motivation, creativity and acrobatics for THAT machine. It's where you'll want to put your love anyway, cause that's the machine you're going to fall in love with. And that machine will never be finished - just ask anyone here. There's always one more tweak, one more upgrade, another card you read about... And while you're cuddled up with the little lady watching some chick flick on your HTPC and she THINKS you're as into it as she is, you'll still be thinking about things you can do to your main rig.

That's my two cents, everyone's different.

 

[Brett Ruttler]

Hi BR,

Firstly, there are a number of sharp looking "stereo receiver" style cases available, with thick black aluminum faceplates, volume knobs, digital displays. I worked in hi-fi for many years and some I would be hard pressed to identify as computers. They really look like audio components.

Thanks Master

I haven't been able to find any such chassis that I like the look of on my regular suppliers - would you please recommend a supplier with products like this so I can peruse their online catalogue?

Yea so I'm going a little bit over the top here there is some logic behind my madness though.

When I build my 'heavy lifter' it will be a £700-£1000 monster. At present I can't afford that much and the hardware that I want for it won't be out for another year or so. With that in view, and the fact that a Godavari 7870k apu will be a significant upgrade over my current build (Llano 3870k apu), the idea is that my HTPC/Steambox will be a pretty good machine in its own right and keep me from going insane waiting for the Zen chips to hit the shelves.

It will also have sufficient performance (in theory) to remain in use as an HTPC for many many years.

The other consideration was, I don't want to turn on a PC upstairs that creates a million tons of CO2 in electricity usage every 12 seconds just to play a bit of some indie survival game for a half hour while I wait for the Chinese food to arrive. I do quite a lot of what I would call casual gaming so having to turn on 2 computers just so I can sit in comfort in the lounge whilst I game just doesn't sit right

None of these thoughts are insurmountable of course and I'm very interested to see how others approach this kind of thing.

To be fair I hadn't realised that there were such high performance low-noise low-profile coolers available so I was trying to come up with a more inventive cooling solution which is partly responsible for the idea of designing my own chassis. The other thing is that I love a challenge and I like to customise things hence I thought a totally custom chassis would be really cool.

Silence, obviously, is the gold standard in cooling - A good quality low profile cooler, with pwm enabled would theoretically either have the fans stopped entirely during non-demanding tasks like streaming Netflix or at least dialed back to their quietest speed. So if I can content myself with a small amount of noise, a 95W TDP apu may well be viable. If not then one of the lower clocked 45w or 65w apus would be fine - the problem is that they simply wont handle any gaming at all at 1080p - not even on low settings and thus I won't have the benefit of a machine that will keep me happy until Zen arrives...


Ahhh I'm so not helping myself here!



So where am I;
I'm leaning away from the watercooling
I'd like to see some of these swanky chassis you mention
I still like the idea of designing and building my own chassis but I'm not 100% determined that I have to
I still want a machine with the ability to game casually for the sake of AM4/Zen being a whole year away and not wanting 2 PCs on at once the whole time

Here's a thought - A lot of motherboards come with instant touch-of-a-button overclocking softwares - This could potentially work the other way - have a stock clocked 95W APU for casual gaming (I don't mind a little fan noise when I'm zapping aliens with a phaser) with an underclock profile available for when I'm doing pretty much anything else. Hence minimising the heat produced/power used etc for normal htpc workloads, allowing for quieter fan operation, meaning less demand for the ultimate cooling solution - in theory meaning that a 'normal' chassis would be viable.

I'm interested in your opinions on this

ta

Brett

 

[MasterHiFi]

Hi Again BR,

Sorry for the delayed reply - the wife doesn't let me out of my cage much...

I haven't been able to find any such chassis that I like the look of on my regular suppliers - would you please recommend a supplier with products like this so I can peruse their online catalogue?

Well, HTPC is a growing category so more and more manufacturers are tossing their hats in the ring.

Here, for example, is a fairly nice little number from Antec:

I think this one is called the Veris Fusion. I've been an audio enthusiast for the past thirty years, so I am pretty set in my ways as to what a piece of audio equipment should look like, and for a PC case manufacturer, I think they did a nice job. And you have to consider that it still has to perform as a computer, not a receiver. Big difference. I started out with gear that had silver faceplates, then everything went black, but now I'm coming around to silver again, so I like this case a lot.

Then there's this interesting unit:

I have to admit, I have no idea who makes this. It is from a custom build, not some Costco job. But it has a very cool LCD display that looks like it's displaying temperature reads and such (not your FM station!), and it also has a volume knob, and is noticeably sleek and slender.

I've heard mixed reviews of the volume control option, perhaps some boards support it and some do not.

Yea so I'm going a little bit over the top here there is some logic behind my madness though.

When I build my 'heavy lifter' it will be a £700-£1000 monster. At present I can't afford that much and the hardware that I want for it won't be out for another year or so. With that in view, and the fact that a Godavari 7870k apu will be a significant upgrade over my current build (Llano 3870k apu), the idea is that my HTPC/Steambox will be a pretty good machine in its own right and keep me from going insane waiting for the Zen chips to hit the shelves.

So I get that you're holding off on your main rig as funds become available, etc. I have to ask, though, if you're investing that many pounds into it, why are you going with an APU? Once you're in that kind of territory, why wouldn't you be looking at something more like the i7-5820k - really great prices on this spectacularly powerful CPU right now - and pair it with, say, a GTX 970? I mean, this combination will blow the doors off any APU coming from AMD, your GPU and CPU are independent of each other, so either could be replaced at any time for any reason without affecting the other, a PC of this pedigree will be relevant for years and years to come, and talk about fast....

Well, whatever works for you, of course, I'm just putting it out there, that if you're in that kind of price territory you deserve to stand with the big boys.

Here's a thought - A lot of motherboards come with instant touch-of-a-button overclocking softwares - This could potentially work the other way - have a stock clocked 95W APU for casual gaming (I don't mind a little fan noise when I'm zapping aliens with a phaser) with an underclock profile available for when I'm doing pretty much anything else. Hence minimising the heat produced/power used etc for normal htpc workloads, allowing for quieter fan operation, meaning less demand for the ultimate cooling solution - in theory meaning that a 'normal' chassis would be viable.

This is an important point, and I think this should be discussed more in depth in the forums, or perhaps create some kind of HTPC review for informational purposes.

In the audio world, under-clocking is an admiral trait. As you can well imagine, the last thing audiophiles want is for fan noise to interfere with their listening. As an increasing number of high end listeners graduate to digital media, the need for PC's and media servers that deliver audiophile quality sound has become urgent.

Some niche audio companies have delivered high performance sound cards, others have developed algorithms for digital to analog conversion that surpass all expectations of sonic performance for digital media, and now of course, there are boxes you can buy and add to your stereo specifically for playing all of your digital music with reference quality sound.

Sorry for the diversion. So what's this got to do with anything? Well, as you pointed out, regular people like you and me, let alone the endlessly demanding audiophile crowd, want to watch our movies and listen to our music without all the whirring and whining of a PC in the background.

Audiophiles figured they should get the Intel and AMD processors that have the multiplier unlocked - so they can under-clock the CPU and allow it to run silently.

Most of the boards from Asus or MSI will have built-in over-clocking profiles that can then be customized and you can then create your own "under-clocking" profile.

Some of the boards will has fan headers with variable speed capabilities so you can turn the fans down whenever you want, or use software to create profiles for that as well.

If you need to keep an eye on power draw, check out some of the Intel CPU's with the "S" designation. These are Intel's low TDP processors and require modest power draw yet deliver impressive processing prowess.

When you start looking into some of the less aggressive graphics cards, the word that is always floating around is "fanless". Especially the low profile cards that people like to squeeze into these small HTPC rigs.

So yeah, you've hit upon an important concept in quiet, low power draw media PC's: under-clocking in this application can be as essential to performance as over-clocking is in a gaming rig.

But you are in a unique category, since you really want a decent gaming rig that will tie you over until you build your real gaming rig.

Lots of people use their HTPC's to play their Steam games, but that's because the processing is being done on another machine and served out to the HTPC.

I think, for what you're asking, you should really think of this as a medium level gaming machine that will later be demoted to an HTPC when the time comes. Otherwise there is simply no need for exotic cooling solutions and high level GPU's.

If you want to build this gaming rig in a nice HTPC case? Well, that can be done. There are many HTPC's out there that are more powerful than my last main computer. But in a case like that, cooling is going to be somewhat limited just due to size.

Take a look at this case - it's a SilverStone LaScala LC03. As you'll see, it comes in both black and silver, and it has a lot of room inside, might even be able to put an H60 in there and use the fans as the case exhaust fans:

Here it is with another SilverStone case on top of it for a sense of scale:

Yeah, it's big, but at the same time it won't hold you back if you want to get a little crazy...

Well, I've talked your ear off and back in my cage I'll go, but I hope I've offered a little help at least?

The most important consideration, I believe, is to think of this as a modest gamer until another, better machine comes along. You mentioned that you wanted good graphics at least at 1080p - so in all honesty, how much graphics performance do you need? Set that as your base line and build from there. With a big-ass case like the LaScala it should be a piece of cake.

Cheers,
Dan

 

[Brett Ruttler]

Hi Master,

Thanks for your reply. I actually really like that antec unit. I'll look into it.

I might not have been clear - my heavy lifter won't be an APU - it'll be a traditional CPU+discrete GPU set up using AMD's new flagship when it comes out next year.

I think the whole underclock/undervolt profile stuff is the way forward. I've looked into a few different options - I was thinking about getting a Steam Link, then using my current PC as a streamer until I upgrade but there's just too much unanswered. For example, the present Steam streaming technology only supports stereo audio. There's no mention if, when (and if) Steam add surround sound to their streaming, a gen1 Link will support it or not. A link in and of itself will not be able to play a bluray movie, but I could add bluray software to the streamer pc as a non-steam game and stream from there but again audio is a big issue. I wouldn't have youtube or netflix either and I don't want to use a chromecast again for 2 channel audio issues with taking an analogue audio-out from the back of the telly.

So whichever angle I look at it from, I really need a suitably capable PC that has capabilities for 5.1 audio (ideally via SPDIF for my elderly amplifier), vga and hdmi outputs for my TV and projector,

I'm investigating options for energy efficient processors that require less cooling maybe something like an AMD carrizo based laptop which I can cannibalise

The 35W intel chips just don't feature good enough GPUs for my needs!

I'll keep you posted with my progress - may end up getting one of those antec units and building a more conventional machine

Thanks

 

[Brett Ruttler]

So,

This is why I like communities like tom's hardware - other PC enthusiasts listening to my ramblings & my requirements, challenging my preconceptions and some of those 'requirements' all the while being polite and respectful. Kudos to you MasterHiFi.

The result of this? I have found a suitable compromise that ticks all the boxes except maybe gaming GPU performance whilst enabling all the other features I want for almost no money and with the potential to be cooled passively and therefore totally silently.

The AMD Athlon 5350 "AM1|" SoC.

cpubenchmark.net rates it at ~2600 points for cpu performance and 360 points for GPU performance which puts it on a par with an i3-2350M at 2.4Ghz for CPU performance and an R5 235X or GT 610 in terms of GPU performance.

considering that my office right now has an elderly AMD Athlon X2 4000+ with an nVidia 7950 GT TDH in it which has enough performance for my casual gaming needs (Portal, Rimworld, SOaSE, Terraria, Minecraft etc), and this new SoC has 2.5 times the CPU power and 1.5 times the gpu power of that old fella the 5350 is perfectly adequate for my use-case scenario.

It's got all the latest extensions and hardware accelerators too so has hardware 264 and is apparently capable of 4k as well (?!) I think that's software decode though.

includes 2x USB3 ports and 2x SATA 6Gbps ports, integrated gigabit lan and even a PCIe 2.0 x4 port which is enough for most basic SATA/SAS hardware RAID controller cards. This little SoC would make an absolutely perfect budget NAS.


It also fits inside a 25W thermal envelope!



So I apparently can have my cake and eat it. Quite a few people are cooling these things almost passively, apparently a stock AM3 cooler, with the fan taken off and holes drilled & tapped in the bottom for mounting is sufficient to cool this SoC in a tiny vesa-mountable case with a 40mm extractor fan. I'm going to experiment with a larger passive heat sink from rs-online and put a grill on the top of the chassis right above it to see if convection is enough.


So, mini-ITX motherboard, Athlon 5350, 160w picopsu, USB3 bluray drive (will be mounted internally on an internal usb header), and 4GB low-latency kingston gaming memory (just to be on the safe side !) comes to a total of £115 with free delivery - the whole system for the price of the Godavari chip I was going to buy. I already have a spare SSD for it and I'm still going to investigate the possibility of a custom chassis (that is what started this whole thing in the first place!)



Next thing I want to consider, as the case has to be double the width of the mobo anyway so as to fit the blu-ray in beside it, is it worth using a pci-e ribbon/riser to horizontally mount a decent creative labs sound card in there too or is the integrated Realtek ALC887 actually any good?

I had originally considered the possibility of adding an audiophile headphone amp based on the Objective2 but it's not worth it if the DAC is pants


Going to make a start on the CAD work this weekend hopefully