[SOLVED] Cooling Advice i5 10600k

[Rhyyn]

Hello guys, i recently upgraded from an i7 4790K DDR3 setup to a i5 10600K DDR4 setup to be precise here is the exact PC right now :

CPU	i5 10600K
Motherboard	Gigabyte z590 UD AC
RAM	Crucial Ballistix 3600Mhz CL16
GPU	GTX MSI 1080 GAMING X+
PSU	Corsair TX 650M Gold
Case	NZXT H510
OS	Windows 10 Pro N 64-bit 10.0.19041 Build 19041
BIOS version	F2 01/06/2021

Playing at 1080p 144Hz mainly competitive FPS games and ARPGs
The goal of this upgrade was to get 144FPS in the next Battlefield game at 1080p

CPU Boost is set to Auto (default setting)
XMP enabled

My fans setup is :

• 2 Silent wings 3 140mm intake front (Fan curve for the 3 140mm)
• 1 Silent wing 140mm intake top
• 1 Noctua NF F12 exhaust rear (Fan curve)
• CPU cooler = Noctua NH U12S with one NF F12 (Fan curve)
• (I know my fan curves are pretty passives but i really really hate noise)

My temps are : (room temp 25°c)

• Cinebench : 80°c average / 85°c max
• OCCT CPU Data set large : 72°c average / 75°c max
• Prime95 blend : 72°c average / 75°c max
• Prime95 small FFTs : over 95°c, manually stopped after 20 seconds
• Idle temps in the 40°s with jumps to 50°s and sometimes to the early 70°c (img)
• Light usage 20-40% CPU : 60°c | 65°c with fans at ~65%
• Medium to high usage 60-70% : 65°c | 70°c with fans at ~80%

I removed my air cooler reapplied thermal paste and made sure the cooler was correctly sat in and tight nothing really changed.

My main problem is not about the temps but the amount of fans usage i need to get theses temps, with my old setup i almost never heard my PC when playing games, but with this setup while playing games like BFV my computer is pretty loud and it's a tad bit annoying because i really hate noise.

My question are :
Should my NH U12S be enough to cool this CPU down at light/medium loads without needing the fans at over 65% usage ? (am i doing something wrong basically)
Should i have gone for the non-K version ? or the 11400f ?
I know that my case is kinda garbage at air flow so i removed the front part to allow the fans to get more air in but is the case a big drawback in the overall temps ?
If i were to buy an AIO like a beQuiet 280mm Pure Loop 280 would it make my fans spin less ? goal would probably be around 50/60% usage tops

Any help is very much appreciated ! Thanks

 

[Hellfire13]

First rule of PC cooling is to have balanced airflow. Not too positive, not too negative. Yours is too positive. Hot air rises up and trying to push air down through the top as intake is not a good idea. Change that first.
Also if you have OCd the chip, that heat sink might not be able to take over the top OC.

 

[Phaaze88]

Spoiler

Should my NH U12S be enough to cool this CPU down at light/medium loads without needing the fans at over 65% usage ? (am i doing something wrong basically)

Probably not, if:
A)You left Vcore on auto. Motherboards use more Vcore than needed by default. Next time you're in bios, change Vcore from auto to Adaptive, and experiment with negative offsets of -0.010, -0.020, -0.030, and so on. Test stability with at least an hour of Cinebench R23(longer is better).
I can't give you a specific value to use, because every chip is different, and bios updates sometimes uses different values too.

B)Ensure that Multi Core Enhancement(Asus) should be turned off. The other brands go by a different name, something like All Core Enhancement instead. Make sure it's turned off.
It basically does the same as point A, but tries to keep the cpu at it's max all core turbo at all times, so it's not great for power consumption and thermals.

Should i have gone for the non-K version ? or the 11400f ?

Not sure you'd have missed much with either of those. If nothing else, the power draw isn't supposed to be as high on either, but auto Vcore can definitely change that.

I know that my case is kinda garbage at air flow so i removed the front part to allow the fans to get more air in but is the case a big drawback in the overall temps ?

https://www.youtube(dot)com/watch?v=7HK5Aulw7YI
https://www.youtube(dot)com/watch?v=_ixFt7h8fak
[I changed out the 'dot' to help make my post a little shorter.]
The short version of those videos: NZXT H500 is a unique negative pressure focused chassis where adding fans in the front can be detrimental to cooling performance, as well as adding to the noise being produced inside, because well, duh, you increased the number of fans by 2 times.

This chassis has another problem: How restrictive both the intake and exhaust are. Normally, you'd see models where one or the other is heavily restricted, but not both.
There's a hard limit to the kind of hardware users can cram in it and expect to reasonably cool.
You can try to cram all the air you want in the front, but with the limited places for exhaust as they are, it won't be very productive.

If i were to buy an AIO like a beQuiet 280mm Pure Loop 280 would it make my fans spin less ? goal would probably be around 50/60% usage tops

You could end up with just as much noise, or more, as you've added additional resistance - the radiator itself. The fans will need to be able to draw air through the gap in the side, as well as through the radiator.

You know what? While typing all this up, I think I figured out where the problems are, so everything else above will be put into a spoiler.
1)Auto voltage bad. All Core Enhancement bad. Windows High Performance power plan(if enabled) bad.
If you want to keep things quiet and cool, you don't want to needlessly waste power. All the above will do that, while not complementing your H500 very well.

2)NF-F12.
I've used them, and am currently using a few - for now. They're good fans, but the sound profile BLOWS(pun intended), and I'm comparing it to the following, which I've also used/using:
NF-S12A, NF-A9, NF-A14, NF-A15, NF-A20, TY-147A, TY-143
I can't run F12s as high as I can like any of the above - heck, the 1080Ti Gaming OC I have, had a more pleasant fan profile, that I ran them at 100%.

3)NZXT H500.
Shouldn't be too much of a problem with the current hardware, but do keep in mind this chassis' limits if you get the idea to put 3080 and 11700K levels of hardware in it.

 

[Rhyyn]

First rule of PC cooling is to have balanced airflow. Not too positive, not too negative. Yours is too positive. Hot air rises up and trying to push air down through the top as intake is not a good idea. Change that first.
Also if you have OCd the chip, that heat sink might not be able to take over the top OC.

Alright i'll switch the top fan to exhaust tomorrow and will get back to you if that changed anything!
As for the chip it's stock

 

[Rhyyn]

Spoiler

Probably not, if:
A)You left Vcore on auto. Motherboards use more Vcore than needed by default. Next time you're in bios, change Vcore from auto to Adaptive, and experiment with negative offsets of -0.010, -0.020, -0.030, and so on. Test stability with at least an hour of Cinebench R23(longer is better).
I can't give you a specific value to use, because every chip is different, and bios updates sometimes uses different values too.

B)Ensure that Multi Core Enhancement(Asus) should be turned off. The other brands go by a different name, something like All Core Enhancement instead. Make sure it's turned off.
It basically does the same as point A, but tries to keep the cpu at it's max all core turbo at all times, so it's not great for power consumption and thermals.


Not sure you'd have missed much with either of those. If nothing else, the power draw isn't supposed to be as high on either, but auto Vcore can definitely change that.


https://www.youtube(dot)com/watch?v=7HK5Aulw7YI
https://www.youtube(dot)com/watch?v=_ixFt7h8fak
[I changed out the 'dot' to help make my post a little shorter.]
The short version of those videos: NZXT H500 is a unique negative pressure focused chassis where adding fans in the front can be detrimental to cooling performance, as well as adding to the noise being produced inside, because well, duh, you increased the number of fans by 2 times.

This chassis has another problem: How restrictive both the intake and exhaust are. Normally, you'd see models where one or the other is heavily restricted, but not both.
There's a hard limit to the kind of hardware users can cram in it and expect to reasonably cool.
You can try to cram all the air you want in the front, but with the limited places for exhaust as they are, it won't be very productive.


You could end up with just as much noise, or more, as you've added additional resistance - the radiator itself. The fans will need to be able to draw air through the gap in the side, as well as through the radiator.

You know what? While typing all this up, I think I figured out where the problems are, so everything else above will be put into a spoiler.
1)Auto voltage bad. All Core Enhancement bad. Windows High Performance power plan(if enabled) bad.
If you want to keep things quiet and cool, you don't want to needlessly waste power. All the above will do that, while not complementing your H500 very well.

2)NF-F12.
I've used them, and am currently using a few - for now. They're good fans, but the sound profile BLOWS(pun intended), and I'm comparing it to the following, which I've also used/using:
NF-S12A, NF-A9, NF-A14, NF-A15, NF-A20, TY-147A, TY-143
I can't run F12s as high as I can like any of the above - heck, the 1080Ti Gaming OC I have, had a more pleasant fan profile, that I ran them at 100%.

3)NZXT H500.
Shouldn't be too much of a problem with the current hardware, but do keep in mind this chassis' limits if you get the idea to put 3080 and 11700K levels of hardware in it.

Okay so i've gone ahead and disabled Multi core enhancement and then i tried to do something about the voltage
So after setting the Vcore Voltage Mode to Adaptive > then VF Offset Mode to Selection.. then there are a bunch of settings but the thing is , i have no clue what i'm looking at, is the thing i'm supposed to try and change little by little "Internal CPU Vcore" ? or is it something else ?

As for the NF-F12, i've never realized they were this loud at high rpm because i was running them with a Y cable + low noise cable which made them max out at 1200 rpm i think + my 4790k never really got hot while gaming, i was running them like this again but they randomly stopped spinning so i had to remove the Y + low noise cable

Regarding the case this is the last upgrade i was planning to do on this PC, it will last me until i can afford a better setup all around for 1440p 144Hz in about 2 years i would say.

 

[Phaaze88]

I went to check out the online manual... holy crap, Gigabyte, would it hurt you to make your bios menu a little more user friendly???
Is there only VF Point 1 and 2? Point 1 must be base, and 2 is turbo boost, going by the ratios of 8 and 25 below.
VF Point 2 Offset Prefix should be set to (-), and for VF Point 2 Offset above that, you will have to experiment with values like 0.010, 0.020, 0.030, and so on. Save settings and exit, test with Cinebench R23(the longer you're willing to do it, the better).

You shouldn't need to change anything else... you do have XMP enabled, right? The ram doesn't run at 3600 CL16 out of the box - you have to turn that on in bios manually.

 

[Rhyyn]

I went to check out the online manual... holy crap, Gigabyte, would it hurt you to make your bios menu a little more user friendly???
Is there only VF Point 1 and 2? Point 1 must be base, and 2 is turbo boost, going by the ratios of 8 and 25 below.
VF Point 2 Offset Prefix should be set to (-), and for VF Point 2 Offset above that, you will have to experiment with values like 0.010, 0.020, 0.030, and so on. Save settings and exit, test with Cinebench R23(the longer you're willing to do it, the better).

You shouldn't need to change anything else... you do have XMP enabled, right? The ram doesn't run at 3600 CL16 out of the box - you have to turn that on in bios manually.

There are 8 VF Points in total

XMP is enabled and ram is currently running at 3600

I will try and experiment with the VF Point 2 values tomorrow and come back with an update thank you!

 

[Phaaze88]

There are 8 VF Points in total

Oh for crying out loud Gigabyte... disregard the part about VF Point 2 - that's not it. It's 4 THROUGH 8.
The max turbo is different on some because it depends on how many cores are active. See here: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i5-10600k-cpu-review

	Base	1 Core	2 Cores	3 Cores	4 Cores	5 Cores	6 Cores	7 Cores	8 Cores
Core i5-10600K (GHz)	4.1	4.8	4.8	4.8	4.7	4.5	4.5	-	-

^It looks something like this.

 

[Rhyyn]

Oh for crying out loud Gigabyte... disregard the part about VF Point 2 - that's not it. It's 4 THROUGH 8.
The max turbo is different on some because it depends on how many cores are active. See here: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i5-10600k-cpu-review

	Base	1 Core	2 Cores	3 Cores	4 Cores	5 Cores	6 Cores	7 Cores	8 Cores
Core i5-10600K (GHz)	4.1	4.8	4.8	4.8	4.7	4.5	4.5	-	-

^It looks something like this.

Okay just to be sure I checked back on the thread before attempting anything glad I did , anyway does this mean I have to apply the same negative offset to every VF points from 1 to 6 since I have 6 cores ? And then test stability ?

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I am in uncharted territory here, BTW this does not void warranty or anything right just to be sure

Also are 10° + jumps normal while doing nothing ?

 

[Phaaze88]

Okay just to be sure I checked back on the thread before attempting anything glad I did , anyway does this mean I have to apply the same negative offset to every VF points from 1 to 6 since I have 6 cores ? And then test stability ?

Just the ones which govern the cpu's turbo boost speeds. The others don't need to be touched.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I am in uncharted territory here, BTW this does not void warranty or anything right just to be sure

No.

Also are 10° + jumps normal while doing nothing ?

Yes. Remember, the system is never truly idle because of the OS.

 

[Rhyyn]

Just the ones which govern the cpu's turbo boost speeds. The others don't need to be touched.


No.


Yes. Remember, the system is never truly idle because of the OS.

Alright, instead of doing it in the bios i opted for Throttlestop here are the results for now :

Ambient temp 22.5° (drop of 3° )
Temps ° Celsius and based on CPU Package
CPU Core Offset voltage -105.5mV
CPU Cache Offset Voltage -52.7mV

Activity​	Max
Idle (min 30° )	46° (jumps, average is closer to 35° )
Cinebench 20 mins	74° (average 71° )
Prime95 Blend mode 20 mins	65° (average 62° )
Prime95 Small FFTs 5 mins	87° (average 85° )
OCCT CPU Large data set 10 mins	69° (average 63° )
BF5 Multiplayer 70-80% cpu usage 2 hours	72° (average 67° )

For now stability is good, no error no bsod, i will keep it like this for one more day and try going further

Already seeing quite a decent drop of temps in pretty much every setup but my fans still spins a bit too much to my liking
I found that after 1200RPM the NF-F12 were getting very loud so the goal would be to have them capped at 80% or using the Noctua loise noise adapter cable to max them at 1200rpm at 100% or buy new fans, any recommendations for maximum silence ?

 

[Phaaze88]

1)Use 140mm fans over 120mm. Generally move more air while having a nicer sound profile - at the same rpm, at least.
LED/RGB fans are actually slightly worse than their non-lit up counterparts in both noise and performance.

2)Don't waste power needlessly. Lower power consumption > lower thermals(avg) > more flexible range of fan control.
-Say no to Windows high performance power plan. Use balanced.
-The gpu also has a power plan via Nvidia Control Panel, under Manage 3D settings. The default, Optimal, saves the most power, but doesn't deliver as much performance as the other 2. Adaptive is the good middle ground. Don't use Max.
-You've already used negative voltage offsets with the cpu, but a similar process can be done with the gpu via undervolting while using software like Msi Afterburner. Doing it is a bit of a pain though. I still don't have a solid grasp of it after trying for a few months in my spare time.

3)Get a new chassis, one with more open intakes and exhausts - preferably mesh. I know they don't appeal to everyone, but if you're trying to keep things more... 'audibly tolerable':
The fewer obstacles for air needs to pass through/around, the stronger it'll be in transit and the more effective your system cooling is.
This also has the added benefit of allowing you to run all your fans at lower rpms with less of a cooling penalty than the more airflow restricted silence marketed chassis.


If you want to work with what you already have though:
4)Remove the front intake fans. They work against the intended nature of this particular chassis, which isn't a good thing here.

5)Use the Silent Wings 3 140mm at the top and rear. Both exhaust.

6)The power plans mentioned in point 2.

 

[Rhyyn]

1)Use 140mm fans over 120mm. Generally move more air while having a nicer sound profile - at the same rpm, at least.
LED/RGB fans are actually slightly worse than their non-lit up counterparts in both noise and performance.

2)Don't waste power needlessly. Lower power consumption > lower thermals(avg) > more flexible range of fan control.
-Say no to Windows high performance power plan. Use balanced.
-The gpu also has a power plan via Nvidia Control Panel, under Manage 3D settings. The default, Optimal, saves the most power, but doesn't deliver as much performance as the other 2. Adaptive is the good middle ground. Don't use Max.
-You've already used negative voltage offsets with the cpu, but a similar process can be done with the gpu via undervolting while using software like Msi Afterburner. Doing it is a bit of a pain though. I still don't have a solid grasp of it after trying for a few months in my spare time.

3)Get a new chassis, one with more open intakes and exhausts - preferably mesh. I know they don't appeal to everyone, but if you're trying to keep things more... 'audibly tolerable':
The fewer obstacles for air needs to pass through/around, the stronger it'll be in transit and the more effective your system cooling is.
This also has the added benefit of allowing you to run all your fans at lower rpms with less of a cooling penalty than the more airflow restricted silence marketed chassis.


If you want to work with what you already have though:
4)Remove the front intake fans. They work against the intended nature of this particular chassis, which isn't a good thing here.

5)Use the Silent Wings 3 140mm at the top and rear. Both exhaust.

6)The power plans mentioned in point 2.

Yeah I've read about this online and this is why i bought 3 140mm
Windows power plan is set to balanced
GPU is set to adaptive
I'll try to look at GPU undervolting but it seems like it'll be a pain in the ass
PC Case is a bit of a problem, because good Mesh cases do cost quite a bit of money (if you have any recommendations for less than 100/120 bucks i'll gladly take it but i don't think it exists)
I will try to remove the front fans tomorrow see what happens
Top fan is already a Silent wing 3 140mm , unfortunately rear fan only supports one 120mm fan

Thanks so much for all the help you gave me so far, you rock!

 

[Hellfire13]

PC Case is a bit of a problem, because good Mesh cases do cost quite a bit of money (if you have any recommendations for less than 100/120 bucks i'll gladly take it but i don't think it exists)

You can look into these...

PCPartPicker Part List

Type|Item|Price (White)
:----|:----|:----
Case | Corsair 275R Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case | $79.34 @ Amazon
| Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts |
| Total | $79.34
| Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-08-17 15:48 EDT-0400 |

PCPartPicker Part List

Type|Item|Price (White)
:----|:----|:----
Case | Corsair 4000D Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case | $92.98 @ Amazon
| Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts |
| Total | $92.98
| Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-08-17 15:49 EDT-0400 |

PCPartPicker Part List

Type|Item|Price (Black)
:----|:----|:----
Case | Corsair 4000D Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case | $94.99 @ Best Buy
| Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts |
| Total | $94.99
| Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-08-17 15:49 EDT-0400 |

 

[Rhyyn]

You can look into these...

PCPartPicker Part List

Type|Item|Price (White)
:----|:----|:----
Case | Corsair 275R Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case | $79.34 @ Amazon
| Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts |
| Total | $79.34
| Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-08-17 15:48 EDT-0400 |

PCPartPicker Part List

Type|Item|Price (White)
:----|:----|:----
Case | Corsair 4000D Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case | $92.98 @ Amazon
| Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts |
| Total | $92.98
| Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-08-17 15:49 EDT-0400 |

PCPartPicker Part List

Type|Item|Price (Black)
:----|:----|:----
Case | Corsair 4000D Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case | $94.99 @ Best Buy
| Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts |
| Total | $94.99
| Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-08-17 15:49 EDT-0400 |

Alright so i did remove the two front fans and did not make temps specifically better but it did not make them worse either, you were right.

I appreciate the PC Cases recommendations, i will wait for black friday sales and try to snatch one of those or maybe one of the more expensive ones


As for my Computer, i'm starting to have weird freezes of less than a second where the sound is stuck on whatever sound is playing for less than a second then it resume perfectly after that, usually happens when i load Netflix/YT/Twitch or a game but never during the process of actively watching a video or playing a game.

So i tried removing the undervolting to see if this was the issue, but nope still there without it

(should i move this question as a new Thread in a different section ?)
I read online it could come from my memory so i did memtest64 20 loops , zero errors , should i go for a longer test or try something else ? Thank you

 

[Hellfire13]

Alright so i did remove the two front fans and did not make temps specifically better but it did not make them worse either, you were right.

I appreciate the PC Cases recommendations, i will wait for black friday sales and try to snatch one of those or maybe one of the more expensive ones


As for my Computer, i'm starting to have weird freezes of less than a second where the sound is stuck on whatever sound is playing for less than a second then it resume perfectly after that, usually happens when i load Netflix/YT/Twitch or a game but never during the process of actively watching a video or playing a game.

So i tried removing the undervolting to see if this was the issue, but nope still there without it

(should i move this question as a new Thread in a different section ?)
I read online it could come from my memory so i did memtest64 20 loops , zero errors , should i go for a longer test or try something else ? Thank you

Freezes are usually related to driver errors. Recheck your drivers, run Verifier...
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/devtest/driver-verifier

 

[Rhyyn]

Freezes are usually related to driver errors. Recheck your drivers, run Verifier...
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/devtest/driver-verifier

Soo I did try verifier but now my computer is BSOD every time it boots, error DRIVER_VERIFIER_DETECTED_VIOLATION

Edit : used safe mode to disable verifier, everything back to normal, wondering what is causing BSOD

 

[Hellfire13]

Soo I did try verifier but now my computer is BSOD every time it boots, error DRIVER_VERIFIER_DETECTED_VIOLATION

Edit : used safe mode to disable verifier, everything back to normal, wondering what is causing BSOD

Check with this...
https://www.resplendence.com/whocrashed

 

[Rhyyn]

Check with this...
https://www.resplendence.com/whocrashed

Results

 

[Hellfire13]

Results

Seems like running the verifier corrupted one of your driver or system file. That's not supposed to happen. Run SFC or/and Soft Reset your Windows. Back up your data before doing this...
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us...em-files-79aa86cb-ca52-166a-92a3-966e85d4094e

Windows 10 basics: how to reset your system

When your Windows 10 PC runs into trouble, try resetting it.

www.theverge.com

It could be a buggy driver as well.