Question Cooling issue ?

Sep 13, 2019
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Hi Guys,

Casual reader, first time poster and PC noob that could use some advice.
2 weeks ago I'd purchased what some would call a low to mid tier gaming pc, something cost efficient was needed for the purpose of video editing with some casual gaming on the side, nothing fancy Just something easy to access to change small cost efficient parts and learn for when I do attempt to build a gaming pc in future.

Wasn't entirely sure this was the correct thread to post but my assumption is this problem stems from hardware overheating so here it goes..

The Problem
Screen periodically going black for a few seconds with no particular trigger and returning to normal after 3 seconds. A nuisance but nothing major.

Now... When Running Overwatch on the optimal settings based on the Geforce experience client, the game runs smoothly with no issues for a few minutes, 10-15 mins into gaming later, my screen will simply go black and the sound will simply lock to whatever sound effect was playing before the problem triggered.

I will sit there for a few mins and the screen will not return to normal nor with the sound stop, forced shutdown was the only option available.


Specifications:

Processor: Intel Core I7-3770 @ 3.40GHz
16gb ram
Running windows 10 64bit
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050
Motherboard: HP 1791 I (as per baseboard product info on system information)

Casing: HP Z200 SFF workstation (Quite literally a School PC case hahaha)
Link to view: https://www.pcliquidations.com/p39628-hp-z200-workstation-sff# (Incase you wanted to see the physical air flow entry/exits on casing)


Case images
View: https://imgur.com/a/xzv9xbb
(image of cooling in tower and temp scans run with no apps in background)
*tinypic down ? couldn't host image under normal circumstances I apologise.


Intended outcome
Would really appreciate the community's help in identifying if the issue, if it is cooling related or if it stems from something else and if any hardware changes are necessary. Any and all advice would be genuinely appreciated I'm interested also learning any tools/apps or troubleshooting steps you guys would take so I can apply it to my own knowledge.

If you guys need anymore info let me know, Cheers and thanks again.
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
tinypic no longer offers free hosting, thanks to Photobucket buying them out and doing the same thing they did to Photobucket a few years back, in essence, breaking 10% of the internet while their at it. Cute.


Download HWinfo, install it, open it, choose the "Sensors only" option. Uncheck the "summary" option.

Familiarize yourself with the CPU thermal sensor readings AND the graphics card thermal diode readings, then, with HWinfo OPEN, run your game. Keep HWinfo visible so you can keep tabs on what thermals are doing.



*Download HWinfo
 
Sep 14, 2019
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The signs you are saying are mainly because of insufficient PSU or faulty motherboard or ram or cpu problem.
It doesnt seems to be cpu overheating because you said it will came back after seconds but cpu overheat will instantly show an error or shut down your system. Have you tried ram test?
Is your PSU enough?
 
Sep 13, 2019
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The signs you are saying are mainly because of insufficient PSU or faulty motherboard or ram or cpu problem.
It doesnt seems to be cpu overheating because you said it will came back after seconds but cpu overheat will instantly show an error or shut down your system. Have you tried ram test?
Is your PSU enough?
That's a bit broad, is there any software I can run diagnostics and figure out with component it is so I'm not making any unessesary purchasing of components ?

I'm going to try Darkbreeze's method first and see what results that shows.
 

rubix_1011

Contributing Writer
Moderator
I'm curious how most issues with glitching, freezing or crashing are always assumed to be cooling without information about temperatures being monitored or provided in the thread.

There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of possibilities that can cause the exact same symptoms, but the one thing everyone assumes is 'COOLING ISSUE'.

Can the OP provide the reason why it is believed to be a cooling issue and not something else entirely?
 

rubix_1011

Contributing Writer
Moderator
While the tone might be sharp, the message is still the same: thousands of people read these threads looking for information and the spreading of 'incorrect information' can often be construed as 'correct information', even when it is far from that.

I'll try to put it into perspective:

Guy takes his car to the mechanic because it will not idle. Car is waiting to be worked on, so he sits in the lobby. There he meets another guy who brought his car in because it needs new brakes and tires. Neither are professionals or know enough on how to diagnose or fix the issue on their own, otherwise they would be doing it at their own homes with their own tools.

Third person walks in, speaks to the shop manager, and both guys in the lobby chime in offering that the third person's issue is the same as one of the ones they are already familiar with without hearing much information or asking details that the shop manager (professional) is attempting to do. Third person has no idea what information is correct, and hopes someone knows the correct resolution, meanwhile, they might not actually remember what is correct because there is one correct diagnosis and two incorrect diagnosis being provided.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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That's a bit broad, is there any software I can run diagnostics and figure out with component it is so I'm not making any unessesary purchasing of components ?

I'm going to try Darkbreeze's method first and see what results that shows.
Hello.
While you trying to monitor the temps can you run a memory test?
Use memtest86 its the best memory testing program
its completely free and you should make a bootable usb(it doesnt work when burned on a disk)
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Actually, it DOES work when burned to a disk if you make the disk bootable. What do you think we used to run Memtest86 before there WERE any flash drives?

And if you want somebody to run Memtest86, you need to give them ample instruction on how to do it.

Memtest86


Go to the Passmark software website and download the USB Memtest86 free version. You can do the optical disk version too if for some reason you cannot use a bootable USB flash drive.

Create bootable media using the downloaded Memtest86 (NOT Memtest86+, that is a different, older version and is outdated). Once you have done that, go into your BIOS and configure the system to boot to the USB drive that contains the Memtest86 USB media or the optical drive if using that option.


Click here to download Memtest86 USB package

Create a bootable USB Flash drive:


1. Download the Windows MemTest86 USB image.

2. Right click on the downloaded file and select the "Extract to Here" option. This places the USB image and imaging tool into the current folder.

3. Run the included imageUSB tool, it should already have the image file selected and you just need to choose which connected USB drive to turn into a bootable drive. Note that this will erase all data on the drive.



No memory should ever fail to pass Memtest86 when it is at the default configuration that the system sets it at when you start out or do a clear CMOS by removing the CMOS battery for five minutes.

Best method for testing memory is to first run four passes of Memtest86, all 11 tests, WITH the memory at the default configuration. This should be done BEFORE setting the memory to the XMP profile settings. The paid version has 13 tests but the free version only has tests 1-10 and test 13. So run full passes of all 11 tests. Be sure to download the latest version of Memtest86. Memtest86+ has not been updated in MANY years. It is NO-WISE as good as regular Memtest86 from Passmark software.

If there are ANY errors, at all, then the memory configuration is not stable. Bumping the DRAM voltage up slightly may resolve that OR you may need to make adjustments to the primary timings. There are very few secondary or tertiary timings that should be altered. I can tell you about those if you are trying to tighten your memory timings.

If you cannot pass Memtest86 with the memory at the XMP configuration settings then I would recommend restoring the memory to the default JEDEC SPD of 1333/2133mhz (Depending on your platform and memory type) with everything left on the auto/default configuration and running Memtest86 over again. If it completes the four full passes without error you can try again with the XMP settings but first try bumping the DRAM voltage up once again by whatever small increment the motherboard will allow you to increase it by. If it passes, great, move on to the Prime95 testing.

If it still fails, try once again bumping the voltage if you are still within the maximum allowable voltage for your memory type and test again. If it still fails, you are likely going to need more advanced help with configuring your primary timings and should return the memory to the default configuration until you can sort it out.

If the memory will not pass Memtest86 for four passes when it IS at the stock default non-XMP configuration, even after a minor bump in voltage, then there is likely something physically wrong with one or more of the memory modules and I'd recommend running Memtest on each individual module, separately, to determine which module is causing the issue. If you find a single module that is faulty you should contact the seller or the memory manufacturer and have them replace the memory as a SET. Memory comes matched for a reason as I made clear earlier and if you let them replace only one module rather than the entire set you are back to using unmatched memory which is an open door for problems with incompatible memory.

Be aware that you SHOULD run Memtest86 to test the memory at the default, non-XMP or custom profile settings BEFORE ever making any changes to the memory configuration so that you will know if the problem is a setting or is a physical problem with the memory.

After your memory will pass Memtest for 4 full passes, it is still not necessarily stable, but it is a good start and you should move on the the last phase of testing using Prime95. See, there IS a light at the end of the tunnel.
 
Sep 13, 2019
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I'm curious how most issues with glitching, freezing or crashing are always assumed to be cooling without information about temperatures being monitored or provided in the thread.

There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of possibilities that can cause the exact same symptoms, but the one thing everyone assumes is 'COOLING ISSUE'.

Can the OP provide the reason why it is believed to be a cooling issue and not something else entirely?
Hi Mod I appreciate your time and input, like I mentioned in my original post this was only an "assumption". I've also mentioned that I'm quite new to tinkering with my PC, The only reason for my assumption was the fact that the PC was quite hot from its fan ducts during the crash and the HDMI cable tip was hot to the touch, other than that I have zero idea. Hence why I'm here seeking help.



Hello.
While you trying to monitor the temps can you run a memory test?
Use memtest86 its the best memory testing program
its completely free and you should make a bootable usb(it doesnt work when burned on a disk)
Awesome program, thank you for that. Made it into a bootable USB and ran the software after following instructions from a youtube video, ran at default settings with flying colours, at least I've crossed RAM out of the equation, I need to familiarize myself with HWmonitor and see what numbers are normal/abnormal.


I notice this problem is very erratic, I've ran Overwatch once more on the same settings and was able to play for much more time (over an hour and a half) with zero crashes.

This time I ran apex legends and didn't get more than 20 mins in without the same problem happening,
Black screen
fans making louder noise
keyboard and mouse lights still on
Sound playing through headphones of app still running
Ctrl + shift+ windows + B (chime still active, I use this when my screen goes black periodically and it always brings it back faster even though it hasn't stopped the problem)
Monitor goes to sleep no signal in DVI
10 mins later fan stops making noise, PC still powered and active, display has not returned.
re plugging monitor leads does not bring back display.
In the end Hard reboot is the only thing that will bring it back,

I've was also recommended to run cinebench and test my CPU to see if there was an issue with it ? After the HWmontior tests what should be prioritized in my checks.

I really want to thank you users for even taking the time in responding and providing assistance irregardless of my knowledge level in this field your patience and help is genuinely appreciated.
 
Sep 14, 2019
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I really want to thank you users for even taking the time in responding and providing assistance irregardless of my knowledge level in this field your patience and help is genuinely appreciated.
Hi, one request - if/when you find out what the root cause of this issue was, please write a response here briefly explaining the cause and your solution, so that others may benefit from it if they have similar problems !

Thanks and good luck ! :)
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Did you run ALL four passes of Memtest? One pass tells you nothing. Four passes will take several hours to complete and is the maximum default number of passes it will run for unless you stop it early or change the setting. Four FULL passes of all 11 tests are required to determine that the memory is PROBABLY not an issue. I'd also follow that up with running the Windows memory diagnostic extended test as well.

"Hot" air from the fan ducts really tells you nothing. The air SHOULD be hot, or at least warm, since that's kind of the point of the fans is to get cool air in and hot air out.

Do you have at least one intake fan bring cool air in and one exhaust taking hot air out? Intake fans should be the front or bottom of case. Exhaust fans should be in rear or top of case.

To know if there is actually a thermal issue, please download HWinfo (Not HWmonitor, Speccy, Speedfan, Openhardware monitor, CPU-Z, Afterburner or any other type of monitoring program UNLESS it is Core Temp) and install it. Then open HWinfo, choose the "Sensors only" option and find the core temperature sensor readings. Monitor those while running your game or whatever it is that creates the problem. Post screenshots here.
 

need4speeds

Distinguished
Jan 6, 2009
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This is the same as my Garage PC. Only mine has the i5-2500 in it. I modded mine so it has a 2nd power supply and a full sized HD-4870. 32" 720P samsung lcdtv. I had to turn the cpu cooler 90 degrees and put a amd cpu fan on it. I relocated the dvdrw to be on top of the sff power supply and it faces backwards now. (I rarely use it so it's ok) The full sized atx power supply fits in the spot where the dvdrw was. Under the power supply i put in a 2nd 650gig wd blue i had to work with the seagate 500 it came with. It's oem win7 64.

Yes i can see why you would want to ditch the Intel Slow Extreme Graphics.

The board's pcie slot is lower wattage than the normal ones. Most are 75watts going to the pcie slot while these only give you 45watts or so. (It will likely go a bit higher than the rating but not all the way to 75watts.)
It's on page 7 of the PDF.
"Multiple graphics cards, provided their total power usage is within 45 W"
http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c04205252
https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/hp-z220-small-form-factor-workstation/5260568/manuals
The Power supply however is pretty good for a SFF one, it's 240watts.

Install MSI afterburner. Turn your Power Limit down. Try something like 80% first. Also drop the gpu and memory clocks by about 10%. Your going to have to make a custom "GTX1040" out of your 1050. You normally can monitor the gpu and cpu temps in MSI afterburner.

If turning the card down doesn't help, try turning the cpu down. Go to windows Power Management. Set the MAX cpu speed to something like 70% or even 60% as a test. If it works then you can turn it back up a bit.

Maybe it's overheating and you will have to figure out a way to add a case fan to it somewhere. Try running it with the cover off.
 
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I extremely recommend you to diagnose your PC completely before deciding to buy any parts(even a fan). Because in a rare situation the problem could be from CPU and it's socket or the chip and transport links on the motherboard. And detecting this problem is so hard and some tiny components malfunctions could fool you and make you replace it. So diagnose your PC completely before doing any underclocking or repairing.
 

need4speeds

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Jan 6, 2009
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I doubt the HP manual is wrong, after all they built that computer. The card tops out at 75 to even 80watts since they are going with the max PCIE slot wattage. HP is saying the slot can only deliver 45watts. That's a huge wattage shortage of 30watts.

If the card can be returned and exchanged for a GT1030 that should also work.
GTX 1050, 1050ti power consumption..
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1050-ti,4787-6.html
GT 1030 power consumption.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce-gt-1030-2gb,5110-9.html

So it's not running a 75watt card on a 45watts slot? Instead it's some really complicated problem? I Give up and wont try to help anymore then..
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
If it's a PCIe 3.0 slot then it MUST be capable, MUST, by spec, be capable of delivering 75w slot power. If it cannot, then it cannot say it is a PCIe 3.0 slot. If it cannot meet the standard, it cannot use the standard to define it's hardware. Simple as that. And actually, that minimum requirement applies to both 2.0 and 3.0 PCIe x16 slots.

There are no graphics cards that can pull more power than a x16 2.0 or 3.0 slot can provide, or else they do not comply with and cannot claim to be, compatible with that standard. So other than some product that doesn't claim to be PCIe 3.0 compliant, which maybe includes, I dunno, some Chinese manufacturer for use in a non-standards Chinese device, or some off the wall non-consumer product, that means basically ALL graphics card that don't require supplemental power in the form of 6 or 8 pin PEG connectors from the power supply.
 

Karadjgne

Titan
Herald
Multiple graphics cards, provided their total power usage is within 45 W

The only multiple cards able to be used would be the 20w GT710 or similar if that was the case. It clearly states 'total' power usage, putting the entire pcie power bus at a measly 45w. That's not going to happen.

I could see it as the pcie power buss only having a total of 90w (it's a 240w psu) available, 75w for a single card or 45w for each card, but not a singular total of 45w for both.

Quite often it's a motherboard driver out of date issue conflicting with new windows updates that's the issue, if it's not temps.
 

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