Coolsquirtle's statement on current nVidia status

coolsquirtle

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I'm bored and i thought i'd make a comment on this dead topic. Yes, a bunch of enthusiast are extremely pissed at nVidia right now, being a nVBoy,I wish i could jump out and prove u all wrong, but i can't. nVidia is doing something i call, produce cheap,sell expensive~~ now phial, that mean they take little money to make something and they charge an arm for it. That's their marketing strategy, believe or not, it works.


Now Kyle in [H] says "NVIDIA needs to fess up to their actions publicly. NVIDIA needs to apologize for their actions publicly. NVIDIA needs to spell out the corrections they are going to make publicly. NVIDIA needs to make the community aware of the optimizations they will make that affect benchmark scores in games and synthetics. NVIDIA needs to treat the community with the respect they deserve. If they do not, the enthusiast community needs to go spend their money with the competition and urge all the people that ask them for buying advice to do the same. "

The thing is, why on Earth would nVidia do that, like i said, in the computing world there are 100 times the amount of stupid people over smart ones. nVidia doesn't need to tell the stupid people "WE ARE CRAPPY, DONT BUY OUR STUFF"

The other thing is about the whole cheating issue. I stand by my point i made back then. If i can achieve good performance, why not cheat? Besides like some dude here said. ATi's cheating too, so why isn't anyone pissed at them??? Oh cause they only did a little "optimization" well tell me something. What the differences in an SAT exam to cheat on one question and get caught and cheat on 10 questions and get caught. YOU GET ZERO!!! I can't believe people dont understand this. Also Kyle said nVidia should admit that their cheating, would u admit u cheated on a SAT exam if u knew if u dont fess up, u'll get away with it?

well that's my 2.6 cents

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cleeve

Illustrious
So basically what you're saying is:

"When Nvidia cheats on benchmarks, it's OK, because I like Nvidia. Alot."

???

CS, we all know WHY they aren't fessing up. You hit the nail on the head.

But what we're HOPING is that they'll realize that it's a stupid move in the long run because they are losing their hardcore supporters one by one; and even though the hardcore supporters don't have a massive effect on overall sales by themselves, the entheusiast community DOES create the positive (or negative) overwhelming product opinion that get's trickled down to the average joe who needs a video card so he can play, say, Half Life 2.

I believe Nvidia has lost alot of their hardcore supporters in the last year because of their pompass attitude. They are losing more everyday; people are really getting sick of it.

Even though there are many arguments that the FX 5900 ULTRA is a better card than the 9800 PRO, you still see alot of hardware sites advocating the 9800. And you know why?... in my opinion, it's because of Nvidia's attitude when it comes to cheating. I honestly believe Ati's increased market share is Nvidia's own goddamn fault.
Entheusiasts are happy to forgive a repentant company. On the other hand, they loathe a company that says "Yeah, we cheated. So what?"

You lose the entheusiast market, and you're already dying. I don't understand why Nvidia doesn't get that.

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coolsquirtle

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let's just say when ATi cards gets bling bling HSF, that is the day nVidia dies~~~

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I'd get a nVidia GeForce FX 5900Ultra... if THEY WOULD CHANGE THAT #()#@ HSF
 

daddywags214

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The other thing is about the whole cheating issue. I stand by my point i made back then. If i can achieve good performance, why not cheat? Besides like some dude here said. ATi's cheating too, so why isn't anyone pissed at them??? Oh cause they only did a little "optimization" well tell me something. What the differences in an SAT exam to cheat on one question and get caught and cheat on 10 questions and get caught. YOU GET ZERO!!! I can't believe people dont understand this. Also Kyle said nVidia should admit that their cheating, would u admit u cheated on a SAT exam if u knew if u dont fess up, u'll get away with it?
ATi's optimizations were legitimate! They would improve real-world performance given the appropriate situation. ATi's optimizations were like studying and extra 3 hours for the SAT whereas nVidia just looked at their neighbor's test. That 3 hours of studying would be legit because in the end it will make you smarter. But nVidia's just gives you a high score you didn't earn. You see, ATi just rearranged a pixel shader code for more efficient processing. The exact same signal was output, the exact same image was shown. Now, back into terms of the SAT, if ATi doesn't study (rearrange code), they still pass, but if nVidia doesn't copy (clip planes and lower image quality), they fail.

One more thing, with regards to your last sentence: NVIDIA DIDN'T GET AWAY WITH IT!!! That's why continuing to lie make them look stupid and preadolescently immature.

<b>Who dares, wins. </b>
 

eden

Champion
CS I disagree with everything save for the marketting that works.

Unfortunately, you are being fanboyistic, and blind to nVidia. You are not even seeing the picture, you are simply excusing everything and trying to find the right reason to still support them, when pretty soon they will SCREW YOU too as well.

Open-mindedness has failed you man, so I am not gonna bother debating your points here with manner.

'Ta.

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eden

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ATi's market share AND profits have risen, and it can't be from average Joes. It's due to enthusiasts, and nVidia continues to drop in profits. How can anybody still think they are doing well! Soon they will come up with even more crap, and then those who blindly followed them will start considering ATi despite bad past experiences. Their final given allegiance is the hardcore fanboys, like Flamethrower. OEM markets are selling FXs, but Dells also sell ATis, lots of 'em.

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TKS

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First let me address this issue:
The thing is, why on Earth would nVidia do that, like I said, in the computing world there are 100 times the amount of stupid people over smart ones. nVidia doesn't need to tell the stupid people "WE ARE CRAPPY, DONT BUY OUR STUFF"
You're right, Nvidia doesn't need to tell the stupid people that. They need to tell the smart ones...so that the smart ones will trickle down their knowledge to the stupid ones. That happens everyday on the internet and in chat environments everywhere. One thing is certain; the stupid ones always listen to the smart ones.

Still not believing me? Here's a comparison:
If a doctor decides that a pharmaceutical that he prescribed in the past is actually only a 'placebo' and other doctors begin to view the same thing...he can dictate whether or not he and his colleagues 'prescribe' it to their patients. That is what the enthusiasts are in this comparison for a majority the stupid people...the doctors. Our 'medications' are the graphics cards. The patients are the stupid consumers. The placebo is Nvidia cards. Some would argue, well if the placebo still gets results...let it be. Yeah, let it be. But then it isn't a medication anymore is it?

I'd have to say that more stupid people are online now than there were 10 years ago and the number is continually rising. They'll believe mumbo jumbo out of an enthusiasts' mouth before that of anyone else...we're like the grunts of the computer world...because we experiment and use these products every day in many different combinations and hit the products with every trick in the book to gain performance.

Next up:
ATi's cheating too, so why isn't anyone pissed at them??? Oh cause they only did a little "optimization" well tell me something. What the differences in an SAT exam to cheat on one question and get caught and cheat on 10 questions and get caught. YOU GET ZERO!!! I can't believe people don’t understand this.
Cheating in an aptitude test is a different bag o nuts. That is one strike you're out. Instead, you could compare it to racing two cars in the quarter mile...the Nvidia car inches up farther than the ATI car does. Both cars should stay on the line...but the one that didn't inch as far will be closer to its 'actual' time. Does that make it more right? No, but ATI admitted and fixed its 'cheat' right before the very eyes of the consumer. Nvidia is still inching their way in front of the line. Then consumers say..."Hey, you're not starting on the line," and Nvidia is saying "No, we're on the line. You're seeing things. We're innocent. We haven't inched forward. These aren't the droids you're looking for. *Jedi hand wave*" That is why most people are crying BS and are particularly pi$$ed at Nvidia.

ATI did not optimize at all in UT2K3...Nvidia did and still does...period. It cannot, will not, and shall not be debated. Futuremark is a different story...Nvidia was said to have 'optimized' at around 2-5%. Ok...now test this process out. Run 3dmark03 or 3dmark2001SE 20 times in a row. Chart the fluctuation. It comes out to be 2-5% either side. Even though this fluctuation was most likely not an attempt to 'optimize' ATI fixed its drivers to take it away before it blew up in their faces....smart move on that one. Nvidia still admits no wrongdoing. Survey says that this is a dumb move.

My question for those doing the finger pointing at ATI is, why optimize only 2-5%? If I was ATI, I'd make it be somewhere around at least 10+% so that I could gain on Nvidia a bit. [sarcasm]But they must have done it on purpose because it got them nowhere and gained them nothing. Thank god for the 'optimization,' cuz we sure showed the world on that one.[/sarcasm]

All of this and I have been an Nvidia fan for longer than most people posting here and I own more Nvidia graphics cards than I ever thought of owning from ATI. I sure want Nvidia to own up to their mistakes so I can keep buying their products...but until then, they remind me of the kid at school that got away with everything. And I friggen hated that kid...I hope he drove his car off a cliff when he turned 16. If Nvidia can't grow a pair and ride the wave admitting wrongdoing will produce, they don't deserve to be the tops in graphics. I sure hope people respond thusly as well.

Sorry if I went over 2.6 cents...You got change for a five?

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TKS
 

simwiz2

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I disagree that ATi's 3DMark optimization was legitimate. Those benchmarks are written intentionally to make the graphics card work hard. Optimizing specifically for 3DMark takes away the whole point of the benchmark. If ATi had done a similar optimizations for the rest of the tests, they could get very misleading scores, rather than the 2% increase that they got by using the optimization on only one test.

If ATi's "optimization" was a universal optimization, and not a 3DMark-specific one, it would not have been blocked by the 3DMark patch.
 

AMD_Man

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You can still have a legitimate application specific optimization as long as there's no quality loss.

Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.
 

simwiz2

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For a game, but not a benchmark. (IMO)

Otherwise, nVidia's clip plane optimizations are also fine, because IQ is not affected if the benchmark is run as intended, on the rail.
 

coolsquirtle

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hehehe my mind is blocked by bling bling lights~~~~~

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phial

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you dont understand how it works

part of the rendering process (and hence processing time... requiring some of the GPUS power) is finding out where the clip planes are

by removing teh need to mark the clip planes, the GPU gets a speed boost


in real games, pre determined clip planes are impossible and that what makes nvidias cheat so wrong

read up on it

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phial

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now phial, that mean they take little money to make something and they charge an arm for it


out of alll the people here why did you think you needed to explain that to me >?? LOOOL

stand by my point i made back then. If i can achieve good performance, why not cheat?

you can achieve good performance in HL2 with a TNT2 if you "cheat/optimize" enough.

basically this is what nvidia is doing.. but of course not to the extreme of my example. not allowing people to select Trilinear AF, which is a requirement for DirectX... reducing texture quality without the user knowing.

like Kyle said, if i pay 400-500$ for a video card alone, im freaking gonna want to be able to enable those simple features

ATi's cheating too, so why isn't anyone pissed at them???

ATI did cheat in q3. and people got really pissed. and ATI apologized.. end of story

heres teh difference , which you obviously dont understand in 3dmark03

ATI - changed the order in which a scene is rendered, because it worked better ATI hardware. NO difference in the output on the screen

NV - reduced image quality, and removing part of the rendering process NEEDED in games (clipping plane) to give Nv hardware a very unrealistic boost.



what NVidia did in 3dmark03 is impossible in the real world. that is whats pissing people off



you example about the SAT exam is wrong.

Nvidia did cheat on a question..

ATI didnt. they just answered it in a creative way, but it was still correct

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eden

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ATI didnt. they just answered it in a creative way, but it was still correct
Heheh, Futuremark's rule on 3dM 03 and this quote remind me of how those bastard government french exam correctors will only accept an answer if it's EXACTLY as theirs. Any slightly different if not better, they'll put you 0. I got a friggin 68 and I am usually good in Lecture exams, would get 87-88%. Bastards even put 0 on opinion questions!

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