CPU CLK speed and Mobo bus speed

RobPara

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May 24, 2014
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I'm trying to clarify the relationship between these two so I can hopefully become a bit more knowledgeable when I build my next pc. I'm currently reading ExamCram for the CompTIA A+ exam. From reading so far, it seems that the Mobo bus speed could bottle-neck the CPU from running at optimal speeds. To clarify this, I've tried looking at my current pc build to see if it is being bottle-necked or not. But I'm having difficulty making sense of the different speed specs. My GPU is the only hardward that is overclocked a bit.

I have an AMD Mobo with a HT Bus that runs at 4400 MT/s and has a 200MHz CPU CLK.

The CPU is an AMD FX-8320 3.5ghz(4 ghz boost) that is rated at 5200 MT/s

On CPU-z the core speed fluctuates between 1406 and 4009 MHz
Bus speed at 200.88MHz
HT Link at 2209 Mhz

I realize that the CPU shouldn't run at full speed. Am I correct in assuming that the CPU isn't being bottle-necked? I would think that the Core speed would be capping at 4400 Mhz if it that was the case. But it doesn't ever seem to really hit that. Or am I misinterpreting the relationship with MT/s and MHz?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
you need an amd990fx chipset to fully utilize the 8320 and the 5200 MT/s. even so you can easiliy run it at an amd970 which has 4800MT/s. your mobo with 4400MT/s is an even older chipset. the real drawback with older chipsets is that they dont have the power phase needed to properly run a 125tdp cpu. they have weak VRM(voltage regulator unit) so if you want to run an FX at full potential or even o/c you need at least a 970 chipset.(except the new 9xxx cpu that only a few 990fx mobos can actually run them, having 220w tdp)
 
chris987,

I'm not really looking to overclock the cpu. When I built the computer, I was looking up whether the Mobo supported the CPU, and it does, but I really didn't dig deeper to figure out what you are now telling me. I would like to figure out how much it is being down clocked though. Is there a way to determine this in CPU-Z?

damric,

I'm not sure what part of my question suggests that my curriculum is outdated. I hope it isn't too much, I'm using the most recent ExamCram book, lol. Anyway, thanks for the link, I will give it a read through and see if I can have one of those conversations you suggested, lol.
 


what is your mobo anyway? have a look here. AMD Motherboards - VRM info database AMD have built the 990FX for the FX cpu. mobo vendors though update theirs bios in older mobos in order to recognize the new processors and AMD is just ok with it. CPUZ will tell you what is really going on! as you can see mobo chipset impementations arent equally built, so the experience with FX CPU on older mobos will vary.
 




Thanks for the response Chris, that link didn't seem to work, but I think I found the chart on overclock.net. My mobo has a 4+1 phase count which I have to research because I'm still unsure what that means.

I have the gigabyte ga-78lmt-usb3 rev 5.0
My Motherboard

At the time of purchasing, all I was looking for was if the mobo supported the CPU. I wasn't aware that a cpu could be supported, but be limited from running at its full potential with stock settings.

The book I'm reading uses the older intel system as an example for how the components communicate with each other, though it does describe the newer systems as well. Its just a bit overwhelming making sense of it all at this point. Obviously this is the first time I'm diving into this stuff. I think the terms are what is making this difficult, as damric suggested. I'm looking at the M.I.T. in the bios, and the terms in there don't seem to be the same as what I'm seeing elsewhere. For example the bios lists cpu clock ratio as 3500Mhz and cpb ratio as 4000Mhz. I would assume a ratio would be something like 4:1 or something there, but obviously that's the cpu frequency. It'd be nice to find some consistency in the tech lingo. Sorry I'm complaining, lol.
 
I'll give some layman's terms definitions. I think you are getting confused on the IMC, NB, and HT Link, especially since those are a lot different on older intel platforms, which is why I mentioned your curriculum is out of date (by quite a few years).

Base Clock: For the AM3+ platform, you have what's called the base clock. It's basicly similar to the old FSB. It's default clock for this platform is 200MHz, and it get's multiplied against everything else to control various frequencies. Other than that, it doesn't actually do anything.

CPU Frequency: This is controlled by a multiplier. Base clock x CPU multiplier = CPU frequency. This is the main factor for performance.

CPU-NB: This is the on die memory controller. For AM3+, it's on the CPU die. It controls L3 cache speed, and also relays data from RAM to the CPU. This also has a multiplier. Base clock x CPU-NB multi = CPU NB Frequency. Overclocking this can improve latency. For Bulldozer/Piledriver chips, this will be a bottleneck if running less than 2x RAM frequency. Example: for DDR3-2000, it would need to run at least 2000MHz since RAM is running 1000MHz double data rate. In older platforms this wasn't built into the CPU.

RAM Speed: Self explanatory. DDR is double data rate, so for example a DDR3-1600 module runs at 800MHz or 1600MT/s, often mistaken for running ar 1600MHz. This is controlled by the RAM multiplier and your base clock. So again example: base clock 200 x4 would give you 800MHz or 1600MT/s. I'm not going to get into bandwidth and timings, as that's a whole discussion by itself.

Hyper Transport Link: This is communication between the CPU and the chipset northbridge. On newer platforms the chipset northbridge is on die so this will be N/A like on the FM2/+ platform. But on AM3+ you still have a chipset northbridge. I've seen this usually default at 2600MHz (5200MT/s) for AM3+ CPUs. You can raise or lower this as needed, but this has less of an impact on performance than changing anything else.

Now if you are wondering what the biggest bottleneck on this platform is...

In my opinion it's the L1, L2, and L3 cache speed/latency in the CPU itself. It's horrible.

If you need older info related to your studies, I would suggest checking out some of the older overclocking guides on overclock.net and techpowerup.com. The definitions of components would be more relative to what you are supposed to be learning I think.




 


sorry for that http://www.overclock.net/t/946407/amd-motherboards-vrm-info-database also have a look here
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/answers/id-1762454/power-phases-motherboards.html
 


Thanks Damric, I appreciate you taking the time to clarify those terms. From the exam book I was able to figure out that some of the functions of the Northbridge were moved to the cpu on new systems, like the memory controller. I also read that Intel includes the controller for the gpu on the cpu as well, removing the need for the seperate NB. The exam book is pretty general though; it'd be nice if there were more examples of newer systems in there. I guess it just gives the broad picture for the exam. So I believe I do know some of the basics on how the newer systems are connected, but obviously not much beyond that. I hope you don't mind, but I have some questions regarding the terms you've listed. I've read the various definitions of some of these terms on wiki and other sites, but I still don't feel like I really know everything about them.

Baseclock: Is this determined by the motherboard, the cpu, or am I totally off base?

CPU Frequency: Looking at the specs for my cpu, it has the following 2 boost states:
1) 4000 MHz, 1.425V
2) 3700 MHz, 1.4125V
On CPU-Z it shows the multiplier between 7-20. I can see that depending on the load, the multiplier adjusts. So doing the math, 200Mhz x 20= 4000Mhz, the cpu's highest power state. The 18.5 multiplier is used for the 3700Mhz power state and so on with the lower power states. My question is, what if the base clock of my system is something like 100Mhz? Does the system compensate and use a larger multiplier in order for the cpu to hit it's rated power state frequencies? I also find it strange that a 3.5 Ghz CPU doesn't have a power state that sits at 3.5 Ghz. The closest is 3.7 Ghz.

CPU-NB: This one confuses me a bit. So there is a northbridge on die(in the cpu) and a chipset NB on the motherboard? Of course I'm just referring to some of the newer AMD boards. So the CPU-NB only controls memory while the Chipset NB controls PCIe adapters, USB3 and gpu's?

RAM: On my motherboard specs it says it supports 1333+ (O.C.)/1066 MHz memory modules. I purchased 2 sticks of DDR3 1600 that are each running at 800Mhz, I verified this on CPU-Z. I was one of those who thought DDR3 1600 (MT/s) meant 1600 Mhz. So my mother board specs are referring to supporting DDR3 2666 (O.C)/DDR3 2133 right? The spec sheets also mention that everything above DDR3 1600 is downgraded to DDR3 1600. So I guess it would not make sense to spend more on DDR3 2133 when its going to downgrade it anyway.

Hyper Transport Link: This is obviously what concerned me when I saw my CPU NB was rated at 5200 MT/s and the HT link was at 4400 MT/s. In my pc's bios, the cpu northbridge freq is at 2200Mhz as well as the HT Link frequency. So, to me, it looks like the CPU NB is being limited by the HT Link frequency. I'm not understanding that relationship there. Also on CPU World.com it says the CPU's bus speed is 2600 Mhz HT Link. Is that the CPU NB frequency? This is where I'm really lost.

Regarding the info I'm studying, I would like to learn the most up to date technology as well, it just seems these books like to give the history of how we got to this point. I guess its also done in case we come across the need to repair an outdated system. I would like to dig deeper into the Cache and how that can bottleneck a system, but I think I've already asked too many questions, lol. Thanks again for taking the time to pass on some knowledge.

 
1) determined by the platform. Example: AM3 uses 200. FM2 uses 100.

2) Yes platforms with lower base clocks use higher multipliers. It does. There a LOT of P states, and often you never see them.

3) Correct. Actually the newest platforms (FM2/+) did away with the chipset northbride and put it on die. AM3+ might be the last platform to ever have a chipset NB.

4) You got most of that right. I would pretty much ignore anything a mobo manufacturer claims as far as RAM speed, since it's really up to the CPU's memory controller. Most motherboards will default boot the first time with the fastest JEDEC spec written on both the RAM and the BIOS, which nowadays is DDR3-1600CL11. It used to be even slower. You can run faster RAM but you need to manually set it up in the BIOS.

5) If I was you, I would run some benchmarks and see how much adjusting CPU-NB and HT Link affects your platform, then set it to the sweet spot. CPU world is talking HT Link. That's what most of the motherboards will default to when an AM3+ chip is installed, but not all of them. If you can't figure it out, I'll just give you the answer.

6) Learn what they want you to learn. Then learn the new stuff as it changes. There's still a lot of old PCs out there that will need to be fixed. We can talk about the cache another day in a new thread. Just PM me to get my attention to the new thread. The short explanation is that recent Intel chip's cache is maginitude faster gets used more efficiently, but the Bulldozer/Piledriver architecture is designed such that the L3 cache is often "missed" and all of the cache has really poor latency.

I'll P.M. some peers and see if they have anything to add on this whole subject since I tend to forget things.
 


Thanks so much for your time. All of this is going straight into my little "book of knowledge." Also I'd like to give the HT Link/CPU NB adjustments a shot, I don't like when something I purchased is under performing, lol. Is there a benchmark program you'd recommend?


 


Thanks Chris,

While viewing the overclock.net vrm chart, I was having difficulty scrolling horizontally to view the rest of the graph, its driving me crazy, lol. Have you noticed this too? I was at least able to see some of the info for my Mobo.
 


I really don't know. I had my last FX CFX rig at 2700MHz HT Link but I never did comparison benches just for HT Links. Right now I'm running an FM2 rig that doesn't even have and HT Link since the chipset NB went away, lol. I'd say bench it and see.