Question CPU temperature gets too high ?

[ElizabethLestrad]

Recently built a new computer with an Intel i7-14700K CPU. My last one, an i7-8700K, ran hot, but with this new one I'm averaging 50-60 degrees idling (5% load), and high 70s to high 80s while gaming (at around 15-25% load).

I've already cleaned, used higher quality thermal paste, and reseated the heat sink once. I'm already using a larger heat sink than the one that intel deems "sufficient", I've undervolted the CPU to try and lower temps. It just seems like its running too close to max temp without actually having to do any serious work, if it's reaching 86-89 degrees celcius and the CPU isn't even using half it's power...

There's not much room to go with a larger heatsink and I've already added another fan AND taken the side of my case off. Not really sure what else to do.

 

[Lutfij]

When posting a thread of troubleshooting nature, it's customary to include your full system's specs. Please list the specs to your build like so:
CPU:
CPU cooler:
Motherboard:
Ram:
SSD/HDD:
GPU:
PSU:
Chassis:
OS:
Monitor:
include the age of the PSU apart from it's make and model. BIOS version for your motherboard at this moment of time.

 

[ElizabethLestrad]

CPU: Intel i7-14700k
CPU cooler: Thermalright Assassin Spirit
Motherboard: GIGABYTE Z790 Gaming Plus AX
Ram: G.Skill Flare X5
SSD/HDD: Samsung EVO 990
GPU: RTX 4060
PSU: 650 Watt - 6 Years?
Chassis: Thermaltake Versa H21
OS: Windows 11
Monitor: Acer Something-or-other.
Bios: F2 (what came with the board)

 

[thestryker]

Unless the room is really hot that idle temperature is much too high.

Are there intake fans on the case? It doesn't look like a very good design regarding airflow but with intake fans it should be sufficient.

Gaming with a 14700K I'd expect to see upper 70s in a lot of titles so that part isn't necessarily alarming. Upper 80s on the other hand shouldn't really be happening.

Keep in mind usage percentage is going to show the core usage and that doesn't necessarily equate to how hard it's working.

 

[ElizabethLestrad]

Unless the room is really hot that idle temperature is much too high.

Are there intake fans on the case? It doesn't look like a very good design regarding airflow but with intake fans it should be sufficient.

Gaming with a 14700K I'd expect to see upper 70s in a lot of titles so that part isn't necessarily alarming. Upper 80s on the other hand shouldn't really be happening.

Keep in mind usage percentage is going to show the core usage and that doesn't necessarily equate to how hard it's working.

Choices on case were, unfortunately VERY limited since not including ANY hard drive or DVD/BluRay drive bays seems to be the (frankly disturbing) trend.

There are two front intake fans, the heatsink blows fans out the top, the PSU blows its hot air out of the case through the bottom (instead of into the case like my last few ATX cases), and there's one fan on the back blowing out (right next to the heat sink CPU).

Currently, I have all fans (via mb controls) linked to the CPU core temp, so when it goes up, EVERY fan on my case and the CPU fan kicks into high gear. Not quite "jet engine" loud, but it keeps the temps just under 90 when playing something really intensive like Cyberpunk or Stellar Blade.

I'm probably going to try contacting Intel tomorrow and see what they say before I shell out $40+ on some top of the line thermal paste and re-do it a second time with even better stuff. The stuff on it now is Arctic MX-4, which was supposedly highly rated, but so far I'm not seeing a difference between it and the cheap stuff that came with the heatsink.

 

[thestryker]

Choices on case were, unfortunately VERY limited since not including ANY hard drive or DVD/BluRay drive bays seems to be the (frankly disturbing) trend.

I ditched internal optical (got a USB BR drive) because I'd rather have good cooling than an optical drive, but I get this. I can't really think of many options (worth considering or reasonable price for most people) that would have optical.

There are two front intake fans, the heatsink blows fans out the top

Does this mean the cooler is facing bottom to top instead of front to back? If so it should be reoriented front to back to exhaust out the back.

From what I can tell on that case two fans in the front for intake, one in the back for exhaust (one fan in the furthest back position on the top would also be an option) and the cooler facing front to back is going to be the best that can be done.

 

[ElizabethLestrad]

Does this mean the cooler is facing bottom to top instead of front to back? If so it should be reoriented front to back to exhaust out the back.

Yes. Since hot air naturally rises, and both intakes are on the bottom half of the case, it was a conscious decision to help facilitate that upward rise (the top of my case near the vent gets crazy hot when all the fans are going full blast).

 

[thestryker]

Yes. Since hot air naturally rises, and both intakes are on the bottom half of the case, it was a conscious decision to help facilitate that upward rise (the top of my case near the vent gets crazy hot when all the fans are going full blast).

Fans bypass natural convection and you want as much clean intake as you can get. If you switch it to front to back and I imagine the temps should improve a bit.

It also just occurred to me that you're using a single tower cooler. That means the absolute cooling capability is going to be lower than a dual tower. It should be sufficient for gaming, but not all core workloads.

 

[rene641]

Undervolt it...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZA-h9yUV50

Edit: And yes, sorry, I overlooked that, the CPU cooler is absolutely inadequate....

 

[Gururu]

Do you have the V2 version of CPU cooler? This is a strange product given the reverse fan and it may be giving problems with the air flow you have designed. Either way, both versions are at the bottom for watts cooled on Tom's chart. You may want to invest in a better cooler. Front to back cooling is really the best way, not too important if its bottom front to top back or middle to middle. But shoot for freshest air to CPU as fast as possible and hot air exhausted as directly as possible. Try not to let air flow in any direction cross air flow in another or opposite direction as that can cause turbulence and results in hot air spots lingering.

I have a cramped mid tower with three CD bays, but I cut out the floppy bays and stuck some server fans in the space. My temps are 30-40 idle, 50-70 gaming, 80-90 benchmarking.

 

[ElizabethLestrad]

If you switch it to front to back and I imagine the temps should improve a bit.

Thank you for you're well meaning suggestion, but I will absolutely go on record saying that doing so almost cost me a computer. Switching the cooler front to back as you suggest would have left nearly a third of the CPU completely exposed. .

Thankfully, I'm very observant. This is hardly my first rodeo building computers so thankfully I only lost the 30 minutes it took to put everything back together again. I also know about, and how to use, various resources like parts picker to ensure compatibility of parts.

So thank you, but that's simply not going to cut it

Undervolt it...

It already is actually, -.09 actually. I'd take it higher, but games were
getting angry and shooting the temps up to 100 and shutting my computer off trying to get them to run.

I do like the suggestion on forcing off intel graphics, so I will give that a try.

Do you have the V2 version of CPU cooler? This is a strange product given the reverse fan and it may be giving problems with the air flow you have designed.

That's not the model.

 

[thestryker]

Intel certainly deems the dinky little things THEY ship with their processors "perfectly adequate" to not overheat the processor and, last time I checked, mine has a lot more heat pipes and overall surface area of the heat sink.

Well since you know everything surely you know Intel doesn't ship K SKUs with coolers because they use too much power under stock conditions.

Thankfully, I'm very observant. This is hardly my first rodeo building computers so thankfully I only lost the 30 minutes it took to put everything back together again. I also know about, and how to use, various resources like parts picker to ensure compatibility of parts.

I'm capable of reading a manual and verified that the correct way to install it is front to back with the fan on the same side as the DRAM, but you do you.

It's a shame you chose to go holier than thou instead of accept that someone might know more than you and just be giving a suggestion based on that knowledge.

 

[rene641]

It already is actually, -.09 actually. I'd take it higher, but games were
getting angry and shooting the temps up to 100 and shutting my computer off trying to get them to run.

I do like the suggestion on forcing off intel graphics, so I will give that a try.

And did you do all the other steps as in the video, i.e. PL1 and PL2 limits, LLC settings and so on? Your processor has a PL2 of 253W according to Intel,
https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...-33m-cache-up-to-5-60-ghz/specifications.html
your cooler has no chance of cooling that. Motherboard manufacturers often leave PL1 and PL2 unlimited...
Try setting PL1 to 125W and PL2 to 200W and let me know what the temperatures are.

Edit: Do you have the latest bios version with all Intel patches?

 

[ElizabethLestrad]

---

It's not a matter of what I want. It's a matter of the motherboard only allowing the CPU to face up to down, and the heat sink copper pad facing up and down. The heat sink only goes on this particular motherboard one way so that the copper base completely covers the CPU. If I did it the way you describe a not insignificant portion of the CPU would NOT be covered by the copper plate.

Motherboard:
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81GQGYsemkL._AC_SY450_.jpg

The rear exhaust fan is directly above the section of the MB that says Gaming.

Cooler:
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71gCEIfFjnL._SL1500_.jpg

The copper plate is PARALLEL to the fan, not PERPENDICULAR.

It simply cannot fit in a manner you describe AND properly cover the CPU, no matter how badly I want it to work, unless I quite literally sawed off all the heat pipes with a hack saw and rewelded it so that the cooling pad was perpendicular to the fan.

Then yes, absolutely, the fan would be able to blow in the direction of the exhaust fan (front to back) as you describe, while simultaneously allowing the cooling pad to remain in the up/down position thus covering the entire CPU.

And did you do all the other steps as in the video, i.e. PL1 and PL2 limits, LLC settings and so on? Your processor has a PL2 of 253W according to Intel,
https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...-33m-cache-up-to-5-60-ghz/specifications.html
your cooler has no chance of cooling that. Motherboard manufacturers often leave PL1 and PL2 unlimited...
Try setting PL1 to 125W and PL2 to 200W and let me know what the temperatures are.

Edit: Do you have the latest bios version with all Intel patches?

Yes. Though I don't see the PL1 and PL2 options.

 

[CompuTronix]

Elizabeth,​

(1) It is strongly recommended to update BIOS to the latest version, which is F5: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z790-GAMING-PLUS-AX-rev-10/support#dl - This includes the very critical Microcode Update 0x12 for mitigating CPU degradation due to excessively high Core voltage. This is a well known problem.

(2) It is also recommended that you replace the ILM (Independent Loading Mechanism) with a "Contact Frame" which solves the problem of IHS (Integrated Heat Spreader) warping, and is also a well known problem. - https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/thermalright-lga1700-bcf-contact-frame - This can improve Core temperatures by as much as 10°C for about $8. https://www.amazon.com/Thermalright...Full-Fitting-Installation/dp/B0BQF13FK1?gQT=2

(3) As has been pointed out, a low-end 4 Pipe Thermalright Assassin Spirit is woefully inadequate for a high-end 14700K. Here's an excellent 7 Pipe Dual Tower air cooler for about $38: Thermalright Phantom-Spirit 120 - A 280mm / 360mm AIO is preferred to tame the power hungry 14700K. The Lian Li 240mm AIO performs on par with many 280mm / 360mm AIOs: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/lian-li-galahad-ii-trinity-performance-240-aio-review

(4) Changing thermal paste to high-end won't affect Core temperatures by more than a few degrees at best, and will not solve this problem, so the MX4 you're using is fine. But as has been also mentioned, set the Power Limits to 253 Watts, as per Intel's recommendations.

(5) "Idle" is defined as 1% CPU Utilization as shown in Task Manager. 5% is not idle. Unnecessary Startups, Background Processes and Services can be disabled in Task Manager to reduce CPU Utilization at Idle to 1%, and thus Core temperatures at Idle.

(6) Ambient (room) temperature directly affects Core temperatures. The International Standard for "normal" room temperature is 22°C or 72°F. Although it's summer in the Northern Hemisphere, if your A/C is set to 79°F, that's 26°C. If you're running your rig without A/C, then your ambient room temperature, and thus Core temperatures are determined by mother nature.

(Q) What is your ambient temperature?

(7) "Choices on case were, unfortunately VERY limited since not including ANY hard drive or DVD/BluRay drive bays seems to be the (frankly disturbing) trend". I completely agree with you. Some users still prefer the convenience of an internal optical drive, which is fine. However, the Versa H21 is very restricted and limited in terms of airflow. The Cougar MX330G ($59.99) https://www.amazon.com/Cougar-MX330-G-MX330-Tempered-Window/dp/B079X2P3TR has a 5.25" Optical Drive Bay, an open internal design for excellent airflow, and can accommodate a 240mm AIO. We chose the Cougar MX330G for my wife's rig, as she uses her Optical Drive occasionally. The cooling in this case is excellent.

At the very least, we recommend that you flash the BIOS to F5, check that Power Limits are set to no more than 253 Watts, install an $8 Contact Frame, and install a $38 Dual Tower air cooler, for a total of about $46. An optional but serious improvement would be moving to the $60 Cougar MX330G Mid-Tower case.

CT

 

[rene641]

Call me overly cautious, but I generally don't ever flash the bios. The risk of bricking the entire system is too much unless it were absolutely necessary.

As for PL1 and PL2, I'm not even seeing those in the BIOS.

PL1 and PL2 settings see at 8:47 of the video I sent. If you don't upgrade the BIOS, there is a high risk of CPU degradation. If the BIOS upgrade fails, you can try to RMA the board, no one can find out what happened...

 

[ElizabethLestrad]

I went back and did find it. Got thrown off by his "this is good enough" - Ha ha.
Right now it looks like you solved the problem. Much better than all the other underclocking vids I watched which just had you tweaking the offset. Did a quick test and was averaging 60s with only a couple of spikes to the mid 70s.


@CompuTronix

Thank you for the great advice.

1) Generally I've never flashed the BIOS on any of my systems due the risk of bricking the entire system. But if it will affect the temps, I suppose I could risk it while its still under warranty. I'll give it a shot and let you know.

2) Not comfortable dismantling/altering the motherboard. Might be something to consider once the warranty expires though.

3) Something that big might not fit, honestly. There's a lot going on in that area of the mother board, least of which ensuring I have room for two more fans on the top, though the poor choice of location for the power port might ultimately mean only one.

4) Good to know. I'll stick with the $20 stuff I got.

5) Also good to know.

6) HOT. But only when the "nuclear reactor" is running. Trust me, if the AC were MY choice, it be 68.

7) Yeah.... I looked at cases similar to that but again, but not having the expansion space is a huge issue for me. I have a 4 tb Western Digital black gaming drive and an SSD I had to fit in, and I still have (potentially) another SSD and another WD 750 gig drive to potentially fit in. A mid ATX case that only allows for 1 or 2 drives just doesn't meet my needs.

Also, not a fan of water cooling. Yes, they might conduct heat off the CPU faster, but it doesn't make the rig any less a space heater than a traditional heatsink and fan. If they didn't have all the extra maintenance requirements, maybe. If you have any suggestions for mitigating the hot exhaust, however, that's honestly the larger concern.

 

[rene641]

I went back and did find it. Got thrown off by his "this is good enough" - Ha ha.
Right now it looks like you solved the problem. Much better than all the other underclocking vids I watched which just had you tweaking the offset.

I didn't solve the problem, I just gave advice on how to keep the temperature within limits. Unfortunately, it comes at the cost of reducing the CPU's performance. The real solution would be a better cooler...

Edit: And why do you have an i7-14700K for the RTX 4060, that's quite a big overkill.
An i5-14400 would be enough for the RTX 4060 and your cooler would cool it without any problems.

 

[ElizabethLestrad]

Suit yourself. Even with a $200 cooler, I still would have undervolted it (not really a fan of overclocking either, really). If for no other reason than to lower the hot exhaust. Discovering the CPU issues was really only a side product of looking at hot exhaust mitigation options.

I'm not really going to argue the cooler further. I was recommended Pcpartspicker by someone I personally know far too well (read as: sibling), and who I trust explicitly on all matters retaining to computers. He has been building computers a lot longer than I have (mid 90s for him, late 90s-early 2000s for me). I had a maximum budget of $900. $500 for the CPU and MB alone, another $200 for the Samsung M.2. $100 for the ram, a case and two more case fans? I was lucky I had 30 to spend on a cooler. I'm lucky I didn't have to replace my PSU. So if he was going to give me bad advice when a tight $900 was on the line, that would be news to me. That's all I'll say on the matter.

Edit:
To answer your question. Last computer I built (I7-8700k) lasted 6 yrs before I had to do an upgrade (and even then it was only going from GTX to RTX) and 8 before it was finally obsolete because it could no longer run newer games (Great Circle). My computer before that lasted until the motherboard died of old age. I prefer to build to last if I can. Adding more ram or another hard drive is easy (100+ gig games are no joke -_-). Upgrading a GPU is easy. Upgrading a CPU risks an entirely new system of all new parts, and I'm not one for throwing out perfectly good hardware.

14700k was the most recent chip I could go for with my budget constraints. So believe me. If I could have afforded an i9 with better performance than the 14700, I would have went for that. Given my 8 year old rig cost $800-900, that was the limit I put on this one.

 

[CompuTronix]

Elizabeth,​

Please heed our advice concerning flashing the BIOS, and regard it as URGENT!

"Bricking" has been greatly exaggerated and overemphasized, largely by those who've read about it, but have never flashed BIOS. I can't recall how many motherboards I've flashed over 3 decades, and have never once bricked a rig. The short list of items I perform when building a new rig always includes flashing the BIOS.

With respect to Intel 13th & 14th Gen, flashing the BIOS is absolutely urgent, if you expect your CPU to survive into the future and remain stable, without degradation.

These days the process is easier than you might imagine. Simply use this LINK to download F5, then unzip the file and place it in your root C:\.

Reboot into BIOS, then use the flash utility, which already exists in BIOS. The utility will find the file on C:\ and begin the flash. When the flash is completed, your rig will reboot. That's all there is to it.

If you previously tweaked your fan curves, you may need to repeat those settings, as well as any others you may have previously changed.

As you can see below in my signature, I'm running a 14700K flashed to the latest Microcode 0x12F. Back when I upgraded to the Z790 / 14700K combination, my very 1st action was to flash the BIOS. I've remained abreast of new Microcode developments and releases, and have implemented them as soon as they were available.

CT

 

[ElizabethLestrad]

Already is. Running F5, I mean. I'm not against flashing, I'm just not a gambler. Best not to be with my record. No risk is the best risk. Have I flashed in the past? Sure. Probably for a motherboard security issue or somesuch. Is it something I would ever do regularly? Likely not. At least as long as they're building BIOS flashing warnings directly into the actual BIOS screens.

 

[CompuTronix]

You stated in your specs (2nd Post) "Bios: F2 (what came with the board)"

 

[ElizabethLestrad]

Sorry, I did it after you said to do it the first time. I was simply clarifying the previous comments. I suppose, in retrospect, it probably would have been clearer to say "Already did it." Apologies for the confusion.