CPUs don't make sense !

[enewmen]

It might be worth mentioning if we are to see any significant improvement in AI, the computer architecture & software needs to be COMPLETELY ALIEN.

For a more human thinking PC, the CPU (if it has CPUs) will need not just 3 or 16 pipelines.
I'm talking 1000s of pipelines per cell, a bus 1000s of bits wide between many interconnected cells! - In a sort of neural network.
I'm not however talking about connecting bottom up & top down cognition (that's a different problem)

I'm sure its "possible", the human brain doesn't have trouble with this ultra parallelism. (I didn't say it will be easy make or program)
I've stories like this that maybe in 2020 when transistors are as small as silicon can get, we will start seeing completely different ways of computing.

Well, it's already 2005 and 2020 is just 15 years away! Science fiction is not so far away.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by enewmen on 03/17/05 03:13 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Crashman]

I was firmly behind ethanol until I found out it actually takes more energy to produce and transport the fuel than the fuel actually produces. Although it's a better automotive fuel than Biodeisel (from the drivers standpoint), Biodeisel has a lower ecological impact.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[slvr_phoenix]

I was firmly behind ethanol until I found out it actually takes more energy to produce and transport the fuel than the fuel actually produces.

Interesting. I thought I read somewhere that research advancements in ethanol production had finally made it economically feasible, but then I don't think they talked about the transportation costs at all. They did however talk about how the 'waste' plant mash could be used not only for running a lot of the energy needed there to produce the ethanol, but in fact there would be enough excess on top of that to turn the ethanol plants into the equivalent of very small power plants using the plant waste like coal. It was an interesting read, but I have to wonder how much of it was idealism that wouldn't pan out in the real world. I mean if it could be done like that, then you'd think people would be doing it already, no?

Although it's a better automotive fuel than Biodeisel (from the drivers standpoint), Biodeisel has a lower ecological impact.

By biodeisel, do you mean the modified vegetable oil, or do you mean something else? (I haven't read too much on biodeisel yet.)

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
P4C 2.6
Asus P4P800Dlx
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2
Leadtek A6600GT TDH
RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
BENQ 16X DVD+/-RW
Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre><p>

 

[Xeon]

Ye has no faith.

-Jeremy Dach

 

[slvr_phoenix]

It might be worth mentioning if we are to see any significant improvement in AI, the computer architecture & software needs to be COMPLETELY ALIEN.

For a more human thinking PC, the CPU (if it has CPUs) will need not just 3 or 16 pipelines.
I'm talking 1000s of pipelines per cell, a bus 1000s of bits wide between many interconnected cells! - In a sort of neural network.

I think that several thousand VIA EPIAs networked together should be able to come up with something if it was a mere matter of hardware. Parallelism doesn't have to be done at the CPU pipeline level.

For a <i>true</i> human-level AI to exist though it would require a hell of a lot more storage than we can ever provide right now. Think about it. Even a 1600x1200 resolution 32bpp 30FPS <i>stereo</i> video stream to equal just what our <i>eyes</i> record would eat up any storage that we could give an AI in no time at all. Add in a 24bit compressed stereo audio stream for the ears, and I don't even know how we'll manage touch, smell, and taste. Then add in a seperate 'thought' stream storage and a seperate 'emotion' stream storage. And <i>now</i> you're finally getting close to the actual storage that goes on every second in our brains. If we can't give AI an equal playing field, then how likely is it to reproduce our way of thinking? So these are all absolutely necessary.

But then we have to take that one step further. For an AI to have an <i>equal</i> playing field it would need to be a system where highly repeated and/or high energy (typically emotional) incidents are processed and recorded on paths much faster and more reliable than those used normally.

And that's only the <i>beginning</i> of emulating our organic processor/storage medium that is the human brain.

However, there is of course more than one way to skin a cat. Without going to such extremes all that we can hope to do is create an emulation of human behavior in a very non-human way. That however may be enough. It likely won't be a true learning AI at all, but just an ungrowing facsimile of what we <i>perceive</i> as that which comprises human behavior. It'll never have the human levels of subtlety. But with enough effort put into the emulation, hell, maybe dropping some of the human quirks from an AI would make for an even better intelligence than that which humans use, at least for subservient roles, which is no doubt what 99.999% of AI would be to us. Let's face facts. Even if we could make an AI that thought like a human we still wouldn't treat it like an equal.

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
P4C 2.6
Asus P4P800Dlx
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2
Leadtek A6600GT TDH
RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
BENQ 16X DVD+/-RW
Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre><p>

 

[P4Man]

>For a true human-level AI to exist though it would require a
> hell of a lot more storage than we can ever provide right
>now. Think about it. Even a 1600x1200 resolution 32bpp 30FPS
> stereo video stream to equal just what our eyes record
>would eat up any storage that we could give an AI in no time
> at all. Add in a 24bit compressed stereo audio stream for
>the ears, and I don't even know how we'll manage touch,
>smell, and taste.

I don't know about you, but my memory surely isn't as accurate as a high definiton video recording. We do not record the "video", we record the impressions, and even then, just some of them, and recreate the images and even events in our head. I'm not sure how many terrabyte of storage our brain has, but considering I can't even store a single book in there, I don't think its all that enormous. Just a clever storage/compression algorithm.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

 

[RX8]

I know one think AI will never replicate fully and that is humans stupidity.

even a mathmatically complied stupidty emulated for AI, still will never understand the stupidity of humans which is never random, there is always somthing which triggers humans stupdity and ai cannot replicate this as it is not logical.

<font color=purple> MY FINGER IS ON THE BUTTON! </font color=purple>

 

[mozzartusm]

The Chair of the Geology dept at the university I attend went on a rant about ethanol and production cost. I left with the impression that we have come a long way in cutting the cost of production, but its somewhat unclear as to which side of the line cost would fall on( + or - ). He also pointed out that politics clouded the issue on purpose to keep the competition out of the picture.

<font color=red>Now that I have given up hope, I feel alot better</font color=red>

 

[Crashman]

Right now people are using straight vegetable oil (even used fry oil), but to be commercially viable it would need pour point modifiers at least.

It would be a perfect way to put soybean oil to use without forcing me to consume that crap in my food.

Environmentalist should start attacking companies that promote the use of soybean products in food for the amount of methane people produce after eating it!

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[slvr_phoenix]

I don't know about you, but my memory surely isn't as accurate as a high definiton video recording. We do not record the "video", we record the impressions, and even then, just some of them, and recreate the images and even events in our head. I'm not sure how many terrabyte of storage our brain has, but considering I can't even store a single book in there, I don't think its all that enormous. Just a clever storage/compression algorithm.

As I understand it, the brain does actually record <i>all</i> of this, and more. The problem is that being a neural network, if the paths that these things are stored on are poorly made, rarely used, or intentionally never accessed after recording (AKA blocking out a memory) then what can happen is that though the data is there, the way to retrieve that data becomes difficult to use if not completely impossible.

This is why people who suffer physical trauma to the brain can lose memories, because the physical pathways get broken. This is also why flashbacks are so vivid, because the path to the data being flashed back is either strengthened or a strong but accidental associative path to it is created. And this is also why those <explitive never entered>s with photographic memories are so damn lucky, because their retrieval isn't nearly as flawed as that of the majority of us.

And, of course, this is why data frequently accessed (thus strengthening the pathways to it) and highly energetic data (typically data tied to very strong emotions) etched with a very charged (and thus strong) path is easier to recall. And why those things that we think about rarely end up fading away, because those paths aren't being reinforced.

Such are among the many 'joys' of an organic system. :\

Just think, everything you've ever read, seen, heard, done, they're <i>all</i> in that mushy grey thing up there ... somewhere. The real problem for most of us is that we have such a hard time getting them back out. :O

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
P4C 2.6
Asus P4P800Dlx
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2
Leadtek A6600GT TDH
RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
BENQ 16X DVD+/-RW
Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre><p>

 

[slvr_phoenix]

Right now people are using straight vegetable oil (even used fry oil), but to be commercially viable it would need pour point modifiers at least.

I would think that to be commercially viable you would also need the price of the stuff to drop like a rock. **ROFL** Vegetable oil is pretty expensive compared to gasoline.

I mean if you could get 'used' stuff for dirt cheap from McDonalds or something that might be one thing, but to fill my tank at grocery store prices would send me broke in no time.

It would be a perfect way to put soybean oil to use without forcing me to consume that crap in my food.

Environmentalist should start attacking companies that promote the use of soybean products in food for the amount of methane people produce after eating it!

**ROFL** Such as Olean / Olestra used to make the healthy chips? Boy do those cause some serious gas!

But first I think environmentalists should start attacking dealerships that sell electric cars in areas powered primarily by coal power plants.

And intelligent people should start attacking tv and movie productions involving pseudo-realistic shows inciting fear through gross inconsistencies with reality. (Such as the current season of 24 and the supposed hacking of nuclear power plants.) Why is it that you show a football show intro with a theoretically unclothed woman (though nothing is actually seen) and people get all up in arms that these attrocities have to be stopped <i>now</i>, yet scare 3/4 of a country (I'm guessing at this number, basing it on personal experience) about something that is impossible and no one (but me) cares? How is this different than just saying the word 'bomb' in an airport? (Other than the much larger scale of course.)

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
P4C 2.6
Asus P4P800Dlx
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2
Leadtek A6600GT TDH
RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
BENQ 16X DVD+/-RW
Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre><p>

 

[slvr_phoenix]

I left with the impression that we have come a long way in cutting the cost of production, but its somewhat unclear as to which side of the line cost would fall on( + or - ).

Oh, I agree that there is still a lot that can be done to cut the cost of production. I think if done right in a perfect world we would already start falling on the + side. The problem is that reality is hardly perfect. Well, that and hardly anyone is bothering to improve the technology and techniques, so at this rate we'll have hydrogen fuel cells charged from a pure nuclear grid before we'll have cost-effective ethanol. **ROFL** Such is life.

He also pointed out that politics clouded the issue on purpose to keep the competition out of the picture.

I'm curious about what politics there are involved in this.

<pre>Antec Sonata 2x120mm
P4C 2.6
Asus P4P800Dlx
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2
Leadtek A6600GT TDH
RAID1 2xHitachi 60GB
BENQ 16X DVD+/-RW
Altec Lansing 251
NEC FE990 19"CRT</pre><p>

 

[RX8]

hahahahahaaha foolish americans bush will never allow clean fuel to be used in america, he has to much money to lose and half the senate to put it bluntally.

its all about politics thats why the pollution treaty was not signed by the president, he gave some bullsh1t like it wasent good for the economy what a load of wank.

<font color=purple> MY FINGER IS ON THE BUTTON! </font color=purple>

 

[Zoron]

It isn't good for the economy. If anything is a load of wank, it's the Kyoto protocol. Punish the most industrialized nations... the ones that are actually working towards cleaner alternatives... and the largest polluters get off with a pat on the back? What kind of crap is that?

<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>

 

[RX8]

your a joker arent u, do u know much about this pollution treaty, lol

do u know how much pollution america is giving out?

do you know how much the whole of europe is giving out (12 plus countrys)?

At least countrys which really are being responsible are taking action! like actually lowering dangerous amounts of pollution which is extremely polluting the WORLD.

you seem a little dumb founded to me, the rest of the world picking on america the largest industrial giant, your having a laugh.

If its good enough for the rest of the world why isent it good enough for america?

america`s always wants to lead the frontier on everything, but they dont seem to want to clean there act up being one of the biggest polluting countrys in the world!

man you just crossed the wrong line with me dont try to justify somthing which you cant with me.

Only if america did sign the treaty they could have took the lead role and be a real hero for the world to look at, but IMO oil corruption runs through the highest ranks of the the american goverment, sad really they could have put most countrys to shame and they have the power to.

quote
___________________________________________________________
If anything is a load of wank, it's the Kyoto protocol. Punish the most industrialized nations... the ones that are actually working towards
___________________________________________________________

european countrys have signed and there working towards a cleaner future.

Japan have signed and they really are working towards a cleaner future, they actually do have Hfuel cell cars and electric cars on sale. how many are on sale at ur local dealship?

in england we have duel fuel cars, lpg, electric e,t,c

ahh forget it, who cares.

<font color=purple> MY FINGER IS ON THE BUTTON! </font color=purple>

 

[Xeon]

Hmm interesting yet you forgot to mention that if all western nations jumped on board we would have to phase out our power production to 3rd world nations?

Make them rich and go about spewing toxic chemicals about, at least with our nations putting out the pollution we can keep track of it, do you really think that any 3rd world nation would go hey lets keep trying to clean up.

No I say, western nations equal money in the bank, more power more money, cleaner equals less money pretty simple economics.

As well hydrogen/fuel cell/electric/ and hybrid vehicles are unable to deal with the requirements of our industries. An electric semi would have to stop every 34.6 km to power back up while the coal plant in Mexico is churning out 10x the allowable pollutions in accordance to the Kyoto accord.

It has nothing to do with oil corruption with in the US either, its simple economics. If such a thing happened one of these options is sure to occur a) move power production to 3rd world nations cutting several thousand jobs country wide b) switch to alternate fuel which will require a country wide retraining in mechanical upkeep of these new engines, rebuild a entire supply system to accommodate for the new fuel, enforce that car manufactures only build these particular engines causing substantial down sizing to accommodate for the new technologies to be developed which leaves you guessed it thousands more out of work. c) kill the oil industry in one fowl swoop leavening thousands more out of work d) decrease importation of fuels and oil based products causing a substantial overstock issue with overseas oil product suppliers e) leaving 3rd world nations in the dark, as they use fossil fuel based vehicles but no one makes its, well the EU would they like those sort of business tactics.

As for the cleaner future propaganda we all are aware of the dangers with the use of the fossil fuels but you cant cut the head off of the system because it doesn’t work well for the planet; economies collapsing, sky rocketing unemployment, downsizing the whole nine yards. This has to be a gradual step not some instant miracle, we say no to oil we say no to economic stability and that’s unacceptable but hey your from the EU you guys know everything so disregard my previous comments as your nations ideals are far more sophisticated than anyone in North America thinks.

-Jeremy Dach

 

[Guest]

I didnt read thru the whole Thread, Im not even sure its still the same topic but here a little link to you learn more about cell and it will clarify a few thing about CPU's...real good read
<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2379" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2379</A>

Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-4-4-8, Leadtek FX5900 w/ FX5950U bios@500/1000, 2X30gig Raid0

 

[Crashman]

Actually food grade vegetable oil isn't all that expensive in large quantities, and the oil could be made far more cheaply if it didn't have to meet FDA requirements. My guess is a gas station could probably get it for a little under $1.50 a gallon were it not food grade, after taxes it would go over $2 a gallon, but more efficient methods (allong the entire chain) would eventually push it down again. Combine that with recycled vegetable oil and it could be even cheaper.

Electric cars are mostly sold in California, where most of their power is imported from coal-fired plants in other states! I have news for you, THEY DON'T CARE about the polution problem it creates in other states, THEY WON'T LISTEN when confronted by the facts, they're upwind of those states and will just blame someone else for not using solar power, which can't even be accomplished on that scale, but again they don't care.

Nuclear power could be better, we could continuously recycle spent fuel rods until they were less dangerous than the ore from whence they came, reducing our nuclear waste storage problem from a crisis to a nuicence. And we could have a couple plutonium power plants to get rid of all those old warheads over the period of many, many years. Both of these things are illegal here, due to fear, but commonly practiced elsewhere, such as in Japan.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[endyen]

I think you are underestimating the cost of FDA. Tried buying a bottle of water lately? The killer cost there is shipping those FDA approved units. If you are dealing in rail tankers, rather than sterilized bottles, the cost would probably be closer to $.75 a gallon.

 

[endyen]

Punish the most industrialized nations... the ones that are actually working towards cleaner alternatives

FYI, the Kyoto Accord is a gentlemens agreement between a group of nations to work toward cleaner alternatives. The refusal of the American government to take part is tantamount to a declaration of intent to polute.
Fortunately the American people do give a [-peep-], so some of the best work on reduction of greenhouse gases will come from the good ole USofA.

 

[Crashman]

Really? That would make it just as cheap as petrolium deisel, after taxes, delivery, and markup.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[enewmen]

I think this thread is taking on a life of its own. However, I think most of the original material got covered. Thanks guys !

 

[Guest]

You know I live in California, not far from Rancho Seco. I assume you've heard of it? I was a liitle kid when they finally shut it down, adn I always did wonder why. I mean I know the Russians had their problems with nuclear power, but from what I've learned, they were constantly cutting saftey measures, forcing overrides and overworking technicians. I was kinda dissapointed with the way it turned out.

<font color=green> Woohoo!! I am officially an <b> Addict </b>!! </font color=green>
<i> <font color=red> One new Firefox fan </font color=red> </i>
<pre> Always remember to keep testicles away from live wiring </pre><p>

 

[slvr_phoenix]

Really? That would make it just as cheap as petrolium deisel, after taxes, delivery, and markup.

That would be an interesting concept. If cutting the consumption safety costs (AKA FDA reqs) and packaging could drop the price to nearly the same as normal deisel fuel that could make for an interesting alternative to petrolium.

Two questions remain though:
1) How does vegetable oil as a fuel compare to deisel in acceleration and MPG?
2) Can we actually farm/produce enough vegetable oil in this manner to fuel all of the vehicles that switch?

-----
200,000 miles or bust!
<pre><font color=white>Antec Sonata, 2x120mm fans, P4C 2.6GHz, Asus P4P800Dlx,
2x512MB CorsairXMS3200C2 in DC, Leadtek A6600GT TDH, 2xHitachi 60GB in RAID1</font color=white></pre><p>

 

[Rugger]

Don't forget:
- Emissions...what type and how much?
- Costs of converting the trucks engines?
- Maintenance costs comparisons?
- Training/certifications for maintainers?

__________________________________________________
<font color=red>You're a boil on the arse of progress - don't make me squeeze you!</font color=red>