[Crawl] Can't find the Elven Halls (spoily)

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AFAIK the Elven Halls are accessed from the Orcish Mines level 3 or 4.
So far the spoilish part...
Since my Spoilers are somewhat outdated, could this have been changed in
the meantime? I'm pretty sure I've completely mapped the Mines and
already searched twice on level 3 and 4 but still couldn't find the
stairs to the Halls. What's going on here?

Rubinstein

 

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bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 1:04:46 AM bork 1/12/2005 bork bork:

> AFAIK the Elven Halls are accessed from the Orcish Mines level 3 or 4.
> So far the spoilish part...
> Since my Spoilers are somewhat outdated, could this have been changed in
> the meantime? I'm pretty sure I've completely mapped the Mines and
> already searched twice on level 3 and 4 but still couldn't find the
> stairs to the Halls. What's going on here?
>
> Rubinstein

I've never seen the entrance anywhere else than those two levels, though
sometimes reaching it can be a real pain; it may well be in a section (or
system of sections) that can only be reached by teleportation or digging.

Erik

 

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Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 1:04:46 AM bork 1/12/2005 bork bork:
>
>> AFAIK the Elven Halls are accessed from the Orcish Mines level 3 or
>> 4. So far the spoilish part... Since my Spoilers are somewhat
>> outdated, could this have been changed in the meantime?
>> [...]
>
> I've never seen the entrance anywhere else than those two levels,
> though sometimes reaching it can be a real pain; it may well be in a
> section (or system of sections) that can only be reached by
> teleportation or digging.

I had sense surroundings from a cloak and, although far from perfect, I
should have seen some fragments of the hidden section(s) at least.
Anyway, too late now. The char died on Vault 8...

Mini YASD (just for you, I *know* you're curious):
Level 21 Minotaur Fighter close before getting his third rune,
checkerboard Vault with (too many) storm and shadow dragons. Blink
didn't get me out of trouble, teleport surely would have been the better
reaction. Oh well...
That one really wasn't too bad: best of my random chars (No.2 on my
highscore list) and finally a decent fighter! Last but not least he had
2 wonderful randart weapons: the hand axe of Trog (which I was already
bragging about) and a +6 +5 bow "Ocoqolil" (strength +1, stealthy). When
I found that bow, I immediately stopped learning crossbow skill. In the
end I had lots of fun killing yaktaur captains in pure ranged combat
duells and even could kill stone giants from afar. And mind you, this
wasn't a hunter who used bows from the beginning on (Level 12 Bows at
last).
Probably not worth to mention in the current bows-thread, but it seems
to me that bows are widely underestimated (though really weak when you
start with).

Rubinstein

 

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bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 1:39:17 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork bork:

[...]

> Mini YASD (just for you, I know you're curious):
> Level 21 Minotaur Fighter close before getting his third rune,
> checkerboard Vault with (too many) storm and shadow dragons.

I've been to V:8 twice, and it seems extremely likely that the layout is
guaranteed, template-based... including that checkerboard vault (in the
southwest, right? Should have had the rune at the south edge, probably the SW
corner).

> Blink didn't get me out of trouble, teleport surely would have been the
> better reaction. Oh well...

I hope he got a warrior's burial. Losing a strong contender is always a
little sad...

[...]

> Probably not worth to mention in the current bows-thread, but it seems
> to me that bows are widely underestimated (though really weak when you
> start with).

They're at their most useful when facing monsters that hit like a ton of
bricks and have about as much mobility. I chose the Way of the Centaur Mugger
once again for my second major game with a HECr, which I'm playing now, and
all those dangerous ogres and trolls fall easily to bows... but don't bother
using them against killer bees.

Erik

 

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"Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
> bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 1:39:17 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork
> bork:

> Losing a strong contender is always a little sad...

That's just Crawl. You *will* lose studly characters in Zot (and
Hell, and the Vaults, and the Tomb, and the Hive, and...)

I've never lost a character in the Ecumenical Temple, but I'm sure a
few hundred more games of Crawl ought to do it.

> [...]
>> Probably not worth to mention in the current bows-thread, but it
>> seems to me that bows are widely underestimated (though really
>> weak when you start with).

> They're at their most useful when facing monsters that hit like a
> ton of bricks and have about as much mobility.

The trouble with bows is that you have to dump lots of experience
into them before they become useful, and that experience would
probably have served you better elsewhere. Evocations, for instance.
🙂

> I chose the Way of the Centaur Mugger once again for my second
> major game with a HECr, which I'm playing now, and all those
> dangerous ogres and trolls fall easily to bows... but don't bother
> using them against killer bees.

And good luck with your centaur if you don't find an amulet of the
gourmand quickly. 🙂

Darshan

 

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bork bork bork Darshan Shaligram bork 5:02:19 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork bork:

> The trouble with bows is that you have to dump lots of experience
> into them before they become useful, and that experience would
> probably have served you better elsewhere. Evocations, for instance.
> 🙂

What, they've invented three-handed, infinite-mana races?

I prefer having the ability to use a shield and not worry about mana -- and
to develop spellcasting before my first scroll of acquirement.

> > I chose the Way of the Centaur Mugger once again for my second
> > major game with a HECr, which I'm playing now, and all those
> > dangerous ogres and trolls fall easily to bows... but don't bother
> > using them against killer bees.
>
> And good luck with your centaur if you don't find an amulet of the
> gourmand quickly. 🙂

A high elf... who is a mugger of centaurs (a.k.a. a centaur mugger, though I
suppose centaur-mugger would be clearer).

Erik

 

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Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 1:39:17 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork bork:
>
> [...]
>
>> Mini YASD (just for you, I know you're curious):
>> Level 21 Minotaur Fighter close before getting his third rune,
>> checkerboard Vault with (too many) storm and shadow dragons.
>
> I've been to V:8 twice, and it seems extremely likely that the layout
> is guaranteed, template-based... including that checkerboard vault (in
> the southwest, right? Should have had the rune at the south edge,
> probably the SW corner).

Yes, same here. That also was my 2. visit here and everything looked
quite familar. I didn't see the rune though, but then I was too busy
with dying. ;-)

>> Blink didn't get me out of trouble, teleport surely would have been
>> the better reaction. Oh well...
>
> I hope he got a warrior's burial. Losing a strong contender is always
> a little sad...

Rather painful, yes (how stupidity mostly is).

> [...]
>
>> Probably not worth to mention in the current bows-thread, but it
>> seems to me that bows are widely underestimated (though really weak
>> when you start with).
>
> They're at their most useful when facing monsters that hit like a ton
> of bricks and have about as much mobility. I chose the Way of the
> Centaur Mugger once again for my second major game with a HECr, which
> I'm playing now, and all those dangerous ogres and trolls fall easily
> to bows... but don't bother using them against killer bees.

Though I also found them useful against hunter types. They usually like
to attack from the distance (if you let them). With a pure fighter w/o
bows (or any other ranged attack) you only have 2 options: either hide
behind a corner and wait if they're stupid enough to come closer or you
have to run towards them, which can be deadly very soon. With a bow, you
can stand close to a corner and, if their ranged attack is too hard, you
can always retreat in one or two steps and take some measurements (heal,
teleport or whatsoever).
I also wouldn't bother with a pure spellcaster but with a fighter, bows
(or crossbows) are surely a good option for ranged attacks. Regardless
of what type I'm playing, I almost always use darts in the beginning and
so I've soon developed a basic throwing skill. I wonder whether it also
helps with bows...

Rubinstein

 

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bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 5:04:50 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork bork:

[...]

> I also wouldn't bother with a pure spellcaster but with a fighter, bows
> (or crossbows) are surely a good option for ranged attacks. Regardless
> of what type I'm playing, I almost always use darts in the beginning and
> so I've soon developed a basic throwing skill. I wonder whether it also
> helps with bows...

I don't know the exact mechanics, but there is a specific penalty for having
a throwing skill less than 50% of your skill level that's relevant to the
missile weapon you're using at a given moment. When this happens, you see a
message hinting at it, something like "Your low throwing skill limits your
effectiveness with this weapon."

Erik

 

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Darshan Shaligram wrote:
> "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
>> bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 1:39:17 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork
>> bork:
>
>> [...]
>
> The trouble with bows is that you have to dump lots of experience into
> them before they become useful, and that experience would probably
> have served you better elsewhere. Evocations, for instance.
> 🙂

When we are at evocations, compare the availability of offensive
wands with that of bolts and arrows...

In my opinion the problem is that bows and crossbows are seperated into
2 skills. From my last game I've learned that it only makes sense to
start pumping XP in one or the other skill when you've found a decent
weapon, which can be rather late in the game.

Rubinstein

 

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"Darshan Shaligram" <scintilla@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95DCDAB5156E3scintillagmailcom@130.133.1.4...
> "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
> > bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 1:39:17 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork
> > bork:
>
> > Losing a strong contender is always a little sad...
>
> That's just Crawl. You *will* lose studly characters in Zot (and
> Hell, and the Vaults, and the Tomb, and the Hive, and...)
>
> I've never lost a character in the Ecumenical Temple, but I'm sure a
> few hundred more games of Crawl ought to do it.

Mummy Necromancy, got all the books from Sif Muna, renounced, casting Pain at
the air to mollify Her, a Soul Eater pops up, game over. This has actually
happened to me twice. So, while trying out an abuse, and I deserved it, but
still, it can happen.

--
Jeremey

 

[Ru]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

In article <34l0ucF4ct11dU1@individual.net>, Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Darshan Shaligram bork 5:02:19 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork bork:
>
>> The trouble with bows is that you have to dump lots of experience
>> into them before they become useful, and that experience would
>> probably have served you better elsewhere. Evocations, for instance.
>> 🙂
>
> What, they've invented three-handed, infinite-mana races?

tell you what: you have a go at a fighter/evoker, and i'll have a
concerted go at a hunter, and we can compare notes ;-)



--
ru

 

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bork bork bork ru bork 1:21:55 AM bork 1/13/2005 bork bork:

> In article <34l0ucF4ct11dU1@individual.net>, Erik Piper wrote:
> > bork bork bork Darshan Shaligram bork 5:02:19 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork bork:
> >
> >> The trouble with bows is that you have to dump lots of experience
> >> into them before they become useful, and that experience would
> >> probably have served you better elsewhere. Evocations, for instance.
> >> 🙂
> >
> > What, they've invented three-handed, infinite-mana races?
>
> tell you what: you have a go at a fighter/evoker, and i'll have a
> concerted go at a hunter, and we can compare notes ;-)

It's a good idea, but I am in the middle of trying to either win with an
Elyvion-worshipping High Elven Crusader, or get sick of them (as happened
with Deep Elf Conjurers). These characters --

-- definitely do want to invest in Spellcasting early
-- have great aptitudes for Bows and Throwing
-- have no special aptitude for Evocations
-- don't have the ST to benefit from most 2-handed weapons
-- can benefit from the not-too-late, nearly-guaranteed Elven bows in the EH
-- aren't forbidden to use magic like Troglodytes are

(On the other hand they:

-- have subpar Shields aptitude
-- have enough strength to benefit from great swords, when they arrive
-- suffer from enough skill dilution to appreciate the switch from
Bows AND Throwing to just Evocations

....but I still find Bows to have the edge for them.)

So unless by some miracle my latest contender happens to win, the only
solution is for me to hypnotize myself after my next YASD and start
Troglodyte... Orcs?... until I reach at least the midgame. Hmm. Sounds doable.

Erik