[Crawl] Making a Beginner's Guide, some questions...

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First batch of survey questions, just answer with what you think is
the best way, or even what you think others might suggest. Some
comments on the question in brackets.

- What is the easiest role/race combo...

... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
before dying?
(TrBe?)

... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
don't die?
(DeSu?)

What makes them so good for that?
(Many Hp / Horrible Things?)

- What monsters to look out for?
(I'm decidedly bad at judging monsters' difficulty, only having any
idea about the stuff I meet at the current point in the current
game, and sometimes not even then.)

- What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
monster) on DL:1?

- How to prevent starvation?

- What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various effects
from wielding/unwielding them?)

- What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal mummies,
a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't need a
Beginner's Guide.)

- Does a corpse vanish when it's dissected while praying to
Elyvilon?

I need a direct link to the binaries of Darshan's patched version,
and the patches themselves, to insert that somewhere in the
Beginner's Guide.

General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like to
write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a lot do do
all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some stuff).

So, what do you have to say, in up to 100 words, for a newbie
(general stuff that one should know, specifics only if they're
vital, see weapon of distortion question above), about one of these?

Brands, artifacts, spells, a race, a role, an especially good/bad
combination, identify, shops, whatever else you like (see below for
more).

Last but not least; do you want to be mentioned in the credits? (No
answer to this will be taken to mean 'I don't care.'.) I ask this
because I don't want to go into the credits (never do with these
sort of things; whoever suffers from this stuff can blame someone
else <g>).

What I've got so far (to give you some idea of what's needed):

How to get going in Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26.

About this document
(aka "What's this thing here?")
[Something to print out and fold into a plane.]

General
aka "I'm dying all the time!"
[Crawl isn't fair, dying is normal.]

Character
"Ok, how can I imrove my chances to survive the RNG's attacks?"
[Chose your character with some idea of what fits your style. List
of race and role info is planned.]

Sight-seeing
"What kind of character will help me to see a bit more of the
dungeon?"
[nothing yet]
Winning
"What kind of character will be best on the long run (with the
endgame in mind)?"
[nothing yet]

Gods
"What can I expect from my god?"
[Brief summary of the early and important parts, still worked on.]

Praying
[You might get gifts, can sacrifice this way, actions are in the
name of the god.]

Strategy
"I still end up dead even with this nifty character, what now?"

[These initial points are a summary that gets elaborated below.]

Think first. - [...]

If in doubt, run away. - [...]

Look at what faces you. - [?]

Use what you've got. - [...]

Find out what you've got. - [?]

Fleeing/Terrain
"So how do I flee? The Crawl.Txt mentions the 'pillar dance'..."

Pillar Dance
[Explained in detail.]

Corridors
[Their value.]

Traps
[Use them to your advantage.]

Monsters
"What monsters should I better not try to fight in the first
place?"
[mostly nothing yet, something on mummies, and "use 'x' to find out
what that monster is"]

Player Ghosts (Bones files)
"Hey, I know that guy!"
[what to know about ghosts]

Inventory
"None of this helps; I still end up dead. Isn't there a way to get
away _fast_?"
["Look at your inventory...", unidentified stuff]

Identify
[how and when to test stuff...]

Brands
[nothing yet]

Artifacts
[nothing yet]

Spells
[nothing yet]

[Some random notes on what still needs to be mentioned... burdened,
friends, "Don't lean on keys.", autopickup, old messages, stashes,
shops, separate caves (how to get out), random stairs, food,
branches, Temple, Orcish Mines, Lair.]

[Mention of Darshan's patch, don't know whether to put that at the
top or the bottom, I'd prefer it at the top. ]

Anything else?

--
Tina the Architect - an Initiate of the Reflective Nibbling Gearbox

 

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On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 04:11:00 GMT+1, Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall)
wrote:

>First batch of survey questions, just answer with what you think is
>the best way, or even what you think others might suggest. Some
>comments on the question in brackets.
>
> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>
> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>before dying?
>(TrBe?)

Yes, trolls have a good survival early on. Spriggans do, too, if you
run away a lot. Centaurs are a good blend of speed and durability, but
the difficulty of feeding one makes them a poor choice for a newbie.
Minotaur and dwarven fighting classes also would be a good
recommendation.

> ... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
>don't die?
>(DeSu?)

No idea. Well, anyone has a good chance as long as they don't die. Not
dying is really the big trick.

> - What monsters to look out for?

Anything in packs early. Bats: get some darts to throw at them.
Snakes: fast, poisonous. Orcs: just plain orcs can be a nuisance, but
the special orcs are some of the meanest things normally encountered
in the early game. Never underestimate an orcish priest! Any monster
you don't recognize may well be out of depth. Your player ghosts will
have powers they didn't have while alive.

> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
>monster) on DL:1?

Get to stairs while it hasn't managed to get next to you. Take the
stairs. Come back much later. Use a scroll of blinking if you have one
and need to.

> - How to prevent starvation?

Eat!

>So, what do you have to say, in up to 100 words, for a newbie
>(general stuff that one should know, specifics only if they're
>vital, see weapon of distortion question above), about one of these?

>Brands, artifacts, spells, a race, a role, an especially good/bad
>combination, identify, shops, whatever else you like (see below for
>more).

Beginners should not try to play ghouls. I suggest trying various
combinations until finding one you like, then stay with it for a few
dozen games to try to learn just that play style. Different races and
classes (well, sets of skills focused on) do play differently.

>Anything else?

Basics of armor and weapon selection. Something about magic and
especially what are good early spells and what types of magic work
well together or with what other skills.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote in news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=
40fidonet_2712e88b@fidonet.org:

> First batch of survey questions, just answer with what you think is
> the best way, or even what you think others might suggest. Some
> comments on the question in brackets.
>
> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>
> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
> before dying?
> (TrBe?)

Yes, making sure to eat anything possible, manage Trog well, berserk at
the right times, only fight barehanded, and know when to run.

I actually think that DeCj is a better beginner combo -- teaches good
skills (keeping your distance, killing things from afar whenever
possible). For fighter types, a Hill Orc Fighter with an axe (can't
remember the abbreviation) might be a good choice (fast levels, good
combat skills, not the same food issues as with a TrBe).

> ... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
> don't die?
> (DeSu?)

Umm. I don't know the answer to this one. :-( My SEIE/monk did fine until
he died of stupidity (mine)

> - What monsters to look out for?
> (I'm decidedly bad at judging monsters' difficulty, only having any
> idea about the stuff I meet at the current point in the current
> game, and sometimes not even then.)

Early game? Snakes, giant ants, orc priests and wizards, ogres, Sigmund.

> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
> monster) on DL:1?

Run away and decend.

> - How to prevent starvation?

Carry chunks.

> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
> monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various effects
> from wielding/unwielding them?)

Advanced topic, I think.

> - What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal mummies,
> a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't need a
> Beginner's Guide.)

The rule for the Beginner's Guide should be "run away". Same for other
slow but tough monsters (e.g., "w" and "W" -- hey, political commentary
in Crawl).

[snip]
> General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like to
> write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a lot do do
> all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some stuff).

Combat strategy: selecting when and where to fight is essential to
survive in a role that emphasizes combat. Never take enemies out in the
open, even when they are weak. Always retreat to corridors so you can
take creatures on one by one, and don't be afraid to run upstairs or
downstairs. Remember that monsters will follow you, so decide to run away
earlier rather than later.

> Last but not least; do you want to be mentioned in the credits? (No
> answer to this will be taken to mean 'I don't care.'.) I ask this
> because I don't want to go into the credits (never do with these
> sort of things; whoever suffers from this stuff can blame someone
> else <g>).

Personally, I think your name should go as the lead author, and you
should mention whoever contributes substantive ideas.

> Winning
> "What kind of character will be best on the long run (with the
> endgame in mind)?"
> [nothing yet]

Not really a beginning topic.
[snip]

> Player Ghosts (Bones files)
> "Hey, I know that guy!"
> [what to know about ghosts]

Hearse
Arien

 

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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 05:06:12 GMT, Arien Malec
<arien_malec@yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote:

>Early game? Snakes, giant ants, orc priests and wizards, ogres, Sigmund.

Ooh, Sigmund. I forgot him. Giant ants don't give me that much trouble
and they're yummy, so I like them. Snakes wouldn't be so bad if it
weren't for the poison. Ogres aren't fast and can't hit at a distance
and don't come in packs, so they're pretty easy to stay away from and
killing them isn't too hard if you have a poison ranged attacked (or
sticky flame!).

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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Tina_Hall wrote:

I'm still mostly a newbie, though I've played >200 games, I've yet to
have a character reach level 20, or explore branches beyond the Mines,
Halls, Lair & Snake Pit. (The Slime Pit killed one of my best
characters to date, in mere seconds... :-(

Here's the resources I use to help off-set my newbieness:

These are all rather Spoily...though not enough for me, it seems. I
had to download the source and look up some stuff, to satisfy my
curiosity. 🙂

Loonie's Crawl page: http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/defense.php
AADC page: http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
A good monster spoiler, plus other goodies:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/lava/crawl/index.html
Erwan's huge spoiler archive:
http://www.eleves.ens.fr/home/grasland/crawl/index.html


> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
Crawl.txt suggests a Fighter. This is as good a suggestion as any.

> - What monsters to look out for?
- Anything you haven't seen before.
- Anything at all, if not at full hitpoints.
- Early game: anything that poisons, plus gnolls & orcs
- Level 10'ish: Elves, anything that you don't have a resistance to.

> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
> monster) on DL:1?
Hit "Q" then "Y", and try again!

> - How to prevent starvation?
Eat chunks whenever possible.
You'll learn fast enough which are bad to eat. On the early levels
don't eat kobolds.

> General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like to
> write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a lot do do
> all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some stuff).

The game is designed so that you WILL die if you ever get
'comfortable' with a character. 5 minutes after you think that a level
has no challeges for your character, you WILL have Yet Another Stupid
Death. My first 5+ promising characters died because of
overconfidence. Some examples: taking on too many 'easy' monsters with
no escape plan, accidently wielding the wrong weapon when fighting a
dangerous monster, not checking how many HP you have before going to
the next level and not checking your equiped armor after trying on new
goodies.

Other tips:
Try playing one of each of these:
- Fighter Human or Dwarven
- Wizard: Human or Elven
- Assassin: Halfling or Spriggan
- Monk: Minotaur or Human

They have different playing styles that teach you different aspects
of the game. With a fighter you get to see how effective armor is. The
wizard shows you the pro/cons of being a spellcaster. The assassin
teaches the use of poison, stealth and how to run away. The monk
demonstrates the value of dodging and evasion instead of armor.

 

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Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:

> - What is the easiest role/race combo...

> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>before dying?
>(TrBe?)

I would suggest hunters. They usually survive at least until running out
of ammo Ammo can be collected from traps to some extent.

> ... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
>don't die?
>(DeSu?)

Fire elementalists rock, in my opinion.

> What makes them so good for that?
>(Many Hp / Horrible Things?)

Ability to kill things from afar / Fire storm.

> - What monsters to look out for?

All of them, at the beginning

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto

 

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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 05:06:12 GMT, Arien Malec
<arien_malec@yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote:

>Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote in news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=
>40fidonet_2712e88b@fidonet.org:

>> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
>> monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various effects
>> from wielding/unwielding them?)
>
>Advanced topic, I think.

I agree. Most games I never live to see a weapon of distortion and
when I do, it is pretty unusual to have been hit with it first (and
then survived to take it away, especially).

>> - What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal mummies,
>> a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't need a
>> Beginner's Guide.)
>
>The rule for the Beginner's Guide should be "run away". Same for other
>slow but tough monsters (e.g., "w" and "W" -- hey, political commentary
>in Crawl).

The difference being that actually killing a mummy isn't so good.
Other monsters one might usually run away from can be taken down
sometimes if one has a lucky find. Newbies need to know killing a
mummy can be bad, they don't need a list of effects.

>Combat strategy: selecting when and where to fight is essential to
>survive in a role that emphasizes combat. Never take enemies out in the
>open, even when they are weak. Always retreat to corridors so you can
>take creatures on one by one, and don't be afraid to run upstairs or
>downstairs. Remember that monsters will follow you, so decide to run away
>earlier rather than later.

Note that player ghosts *won't* follow you up/down stairs. That little
tip could save quite a few lives.

>> Winning
>> "What kind of character will be best on the long run (with the
>> endgame in mind)?"
>> [nothing yet]
>
>Not really a beginning topic.
>[snip]

But a beginner question. And I actually think my answer is right on:
Any character that survives. I guess one should mention that
specialization is the way to go in order to get a character powerful
enough to handle the late game.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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Arien Malec wrote:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote in news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=
> 40fidonet_2712e88b@fidonet.org:
>

>> - What monsters to look out for?
>>(I'm decidedly bad at judging monsters' difficulty, only having any
>>idea about the stuff I meet at the current point in the current
>>game, and sometimes not even then.)
>
>
> Early game? Snakes, giant ants, orc priests and wizards, ogres, Sigmund.

Orc warriors, jellies (look harmless, hit hard). Ants, Ogres and Orc
wizards are quite easy IMHO, especially if you bring your blowgun with you.

>> - How to prevent starvation?
>
>
> Carry chunks.

Hunt for food until weak; possibly go down one level to find fresh food.
If starving, retreat and eat rations. If you're a troll|ogre|cobold, eat
every fresh monster until full. My last starved characters were Centaurs
and TrBe, so starvation was never much of an issiue.

>> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
>>monster hits the player with it?

'space bends|warps horribly around you' for the extra damage.
Banishment, blink and teleport go without further notice. Also watch out
for the 'explosion of sparks' electric weapons (+10+d15 if wielded by a
monster).


>> - What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal mummies,
>>a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't need a
>>Beginner's Guide.)

it's curse_an_item(); curses weapons/rings/amulets/armour or turns a
stack of your potions into potions of decay.


Lars

 

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On 3 Aug 04 07:30:32 GMT, jkuusist@cc.hut.fi (Jukka Kuusisto) wrote:

>Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:
>
>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>
>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>>before dying?
>>(TrBe?)
>
>I would suggest hunters. They usually survive at least until running out
>of ammo Ammo can be collected from traps to some extent.

Ammo is heavy and missiles can get hard to come by. Most races good at
shooting aren't very sturdy. I would suggest newbies wanting to play
hunters try a centaur, so they can run away a lot, if only to create a
distance between themselves and their targets. The problem then is
food, but at least this isn't a spell-casting centaur.

>Fire elementalists rock, in my opinion.

Fire elementists are a good beginner spell-caster. Very
straight-forward way to get into Crawl magic.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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Jukka Kuusisto <jkuusist@cc.hut.fi> screamed:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:

>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...

>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>> before dying?
>> (TrBe?)

> I would suggest hunters. They usually survive at least until
> running out of ammo Ammo can be collected from traps to some
> extent.

What race? My Gnome Hunters were dead faster than you could say
'Gnome Hunter'. Others didn'f fare much better

>> ... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
>> don't die?
>> (DeSu?)

> Fire elementalists rock, in my opinion.

What race? My Dwarven Fire Elementalist (the one that didn't get
killed by a bug in an older version) didn't get far, either.

That's what I meant by unlucky combinations (when someone plays
random characters). Some races fit certain roles better than
others...

>> - What monsters to look out for?

> All of them, at the beginning

Well... There are some that need more looking out for than others.
<g>

Thanks.

--
Tina the Portalist - an Initiate of the Ruinous Nonaligned Grievance

 

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R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> screamed:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:

>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>>
>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>> before dying?
>> (TrBe?)

> Yes, trolls have a good survival early on. Spriggans do, too, if
> you run away a lot.

As a Stalker, for example?

> Centaurs are a good blend of speed and durability, but the
> difficulty of feeding one makes them a poor choice for a newbie.

What role is best for a Centaur? (Mine all had food problems, too.)

> Minotaur and dwarven fighting classes also would be a good
> recommendation.

Fighting classes is Fighter, Gladiator, what else?

Ah, another question. What roles and races are far more difficult
than others? (I'd list quite a lot here, starting with Reaver and
Kenku.)

>> ... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
>> don't die?
>> (DeSu?)

> No idea. Well, anyone has a good chance as long as they don't
> die. Not dying is really the big trick.

In my experience, the bigger spellcasters have a much easier life
later on.

For me, that's especially Summoning + Earth Magic, the Summoner just
has better survival methods early on than the Earth Elementalist.
Hiding in a Tomb of Doroklohe while Horrible Things pound on the
monsters must be just about the safest way to get through the
endgame. The only problem is that this way you don't learn how
tough the monsters are.

>> - What monsters to look out for?

> Anything in packs early. Bats: get some darts to throw at them.
> Snakes: fast, poisonous. Orcs: just plain orcs can be a nuisance,
> but the special orcs are some of the meanest things normally
> encountered in the early game. Never underestimate an orcish
> priest! Any monster you don't recognize may well be out of depth.

This sounds as if it wants to be transplanted into the Guide as is.
(The snipped bits below, too.)

> Your player ghosts will have powers they didn't have while alive.

Yes, that's mentioned in the 'Ghosts' section but ghosts might be
better pointed out here, too.

[...]

>> - How to prevent starvation?

> Eat!

<g>
Well, apart from the obvious.

[...]

>> Anything else?

> Basics of armor and weapon selection. Something about magic and
> especially what are good early spells and what types of magic
> work well together or with what other skills.

Ah, right.

Thanks!

--
Tina the Poisoner - a Believer of the Regrettable Nosy Grinder

 

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On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:09:00 GMT+1, Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall)
wrote:

>R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> screamed:
>> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>
>>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>>>
>>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>>> before dying?
>>> (TrBe?)
>
>> Yes, trolls have a good survival early on. Spriggans do, too, if
>> you run away a lot.
>
>As a Stalker, for example?

Anything. As long as you run away a lot. The classes vary in long-term
viability, I guess, but for living long enough to get a look around as
a beginning player, it's the running speed that matters. (Also, IIRC,
they have small appetites and avoid some of the food issue which can
be difficult when learning the basics.) Stalker is actually a good
beginner class because you can learn about spells, stabbing, stealth,
running the heck away, and poisoning then running. Not the best of
classes, but a viable mix of important things to learn.

>> Centaurs are a good blend of speed and durability, but the
>> difficulty of feeding one makes them a poor choice for a newbie.
>
>What role is best for a Centaur? (Mine all had food problems, too.)

As I say, I wouldn't recommend a centaur to a newbie, unless maybe
they wanted to play a hunter. Centaurs can shoot, don't die too
easily, and can run faster than most monsters, making the whole
missile weapon thing a little more practical than for most races.

>> Minotaur and dwarven fighting classes also would be a good
>> recommendation.
>
>Fighting classes is Fighter, Gladiator, what else?

Monks. Minotaur monk is a pretty tough customer.

>Ah, another question. What roles and races are far more difficult
>than others? (I'd list quite a lot here, starting with Reaver and
>Kenku.)

Kenku look good on paper, but I haven't had a lot of luck with them,
either. Reaver is just a bad idea. If you do magic and fighting, you
want magic that does support stuff to complement your fighting skill,
not compete with it for killing monsters. You're just double spending
on killing monsters with a Reaver. At least a Stalker's direct attack
poison saves you a blowgun and they get other spells quickly, like
Sure Blade, which *adds to* Short Blade effectiveness rather than
competing with it.

>>> - What monsters to look out for?
>
>> Anything in packs early. Bats: get some darts to throw at them.
>> Snakes: fast, poisonous. Orcs: just plain orcs can be a nuisance,
>> but the special orcs are some of the meanest things normally
>> encountered in the early game. Never underestimate an orcish
>> priest! Any monster you don't recognize may well be out of depth.
>
>This sounds as if it wants to be transplanted into the Guide as is.
> (The snipped bits below, too.)

I forgot about Sigmund. In fact, probably about the first ten uniques
should get a brief mention. (Beyond that, you're no longer a beginner
if you're meeting them at a depth you have a chance of survival.)

>>> - How to prevent starvation?
>
>> Eat!
>
><g>
>Well, apart from the obvious.

Don't eat rotten food. Unless you can [list circumstances that allow
eating rotten food]. Eat nice meats like rats, bats, etc. in
preference to ickier meats like orc or gnoll. Unless you resist
poison, don't eat poisoned meat. Snakes are venomous, but not
poisonous: it is bad if they bite you, but are quite good eating.
That's "Snakes", not anything with snake in its name -- a word about
higher snake types would be in order. I don't know how many of those
are edible.

Cache food. I like to use the ET as a storage area, myself. Keep
enough on hand to avoid starvation, without being weighed down. If you
*have* to eat with danger nearby, eat something quick, not a ration.

Maybe mention the "eat bread last in case I get vegetarianism"
strategy.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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Arien Malec <arien_malec@yahoo.com.REMOVE> screamed:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote

>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>>
>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>> before dying?
>> (TrBe?)

[...]
> I actually think that DeCj is a better beginner combo -- teaches
> good skills (keeping your distance, killing things from afar
> whenever possible).

What strategy has them survive, though? Mine all got killed... (The
problem is also that you don't have a fixed spellbook, so you don't
always have the same strategy; imps for example are resistant to
either ice or fire, can never remember).

I'll add that; maybe someone else's playing style fits them better
than mine.

[...]

>> - How to prevent starvation?

> Carry chunks.

And eat them first...? I just remember some questions here about
starvation from new players, but wasn't sure what they were told...

>> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
>> monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various
>> effects from wielding/unwielding them?)

> Advanced topic, I think.

It's vital, I think, because it can happen early and kill the
character, so they need to know the risk. Minimizing it by not test
wielding all and every weapon, but just those that are useful to you
or look particularly interesting, should be mentioned. Then, which
weapon not to test-wield when you found out what it is by someone
else hitting you with it. (I'll also mention that some people think
weapons of distortion are the best thing since sliced bread. )

>> - What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal
>> mummies, a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't
>> need a Beginner's Guide.)

> The rule for the Beginner's Guide should be "run away". Same for
> other slow but tough monsters (e.g., "w" and "W"

Telling them why not to kill a mummy themselves might help believing
it.

> -- hey, political commentary in Crawl).

I had to think about that to guess what it might mean. <g>

> [snip]
>> General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like
>> to write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a
>> lot do do all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some
>> stuff).

> Combat strategy: selecting when and where to fight is essential
> to survive in a role that emphasizes combat. Never take enemies
> out in the open, even when they are weak.

A single monster? Or a horde?

> Always retreat to corridors so you can take creatures on one by
> one, and don't be afraid to run upstairs or downstairs. [...]

I forgot up/downstairs. That's sometimes handy to get rid of surplus
monsters (when the other end of the stairs has only one square
adjacent to you).

>> Last but not least; do you want to be mentioned in the credits?
>> (No answer to this will be taken to mean 'I don't care.'.) I ask
>> this because I don't want to go into the credits (never do with
>> these sort of things; whoever suffers from this stuff can blame
>> someone else <g>).

> Personally, I think your name should go as the lead author,

I don't want that.

(And that's something only I have any say in. 😛 )

> and you should mention whoever contributes substantive ideas.

If they want to be mentioned, then they have the opportunity to
answer 'Yes' here. No answer will result in this being done
according to my whim alone. (Not the best way.)

>> Winning
>> "What kind of character will be best on the long run (with
>> the endgame in mind)?"
>> [nothing yet]

> Not really a beginning topic.

Doesn't matter. Some players like to have a plan, and don't just
survive half the game and then get killed because the character has
nothing to offer for later. (Like Stalkers get difficult later
on...)

Usually the stuff I put into spoilers (and here in the Guide, too,
to some extend) are the kind of answers I would have liked to get
when asking certain questions when I was new to the game. This is
one of them.

People don't all have the same goal, and for example being told
"doesn't matter at the moment" isn't helpful.

>> Player Ghosts (Bones files)
>> "Hey, I know that guy!"
>> [what to know about ghosts]

> Hearse

True. Do you have a direct link for that?

Thanks!

--
Tina the Spear-Bearer - a High Priest of the Rearing Number Guardian

 

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On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:20:00 GMT+1, Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall)
wrote:

>It's vital, I think, because it can happen early and kill the
>character, so they need to know the risk. Minimizing it by not test
>wielding all and every weapon, but just those that are useful to you
>or look particularly interesting, should be mentioned. Then, which
>weapon not to test-wield when you found out what it is by someone
>else hitting you with it. (I'll also mention that some people think
>weapons of distortion are the best thing since sliced bread. )

Actually, the important thing for a beginner to be told about weapons
of distortion is to *not unwield* one once you have wielded it. (Not
until able to survive the possible side effects, that is.)

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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"Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_2712e88b@fidonet.org...
> First batch of survey questions, just answer with what you think is
> the best way, or even what you think others might suggest. Some
> comments on the question in brackets.

I'll second most of what was said elsewhere in the thread.

> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>
> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
> before dying?
> (TrBe?)

I'd say SpSt, but this is probably a matter of play style. Demonspawn
fighters can be very good early if your first mutation is a good one.

> - What monsters to look out for?
> (I'm decidedly bad at judging monsters' difficulty, only having any
> idea about the stuff I meet at the current point in the current
> game, and sometimes not even then.)

Ogres, killer bees, and orc priests were my biggest problem as a newbie.
Now it's probably gnolls, which often appear on DL1.

Oh, and a kobold with a dagger of draining.

> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
> monster) on DL:1?

Poison needles are lying all over the place. Even without a blowgun, you
don't have to throw many to get a big OOD monster (ogres usually, but the
occasional troll, too) pretty sick. Stings serve the same purpose, if
you're a stalker or venom mage. Otherwise, go downstairs.

> - How to prevent starvation?

Don't cast high-level spells when you don't need to and you can't do it for
free.

Rage also makes you pretty hungry, and I don't think you get a message.


> Monsters
> "What monsters should I better not try to fight in the first
> place?"
> [mostly nothing yet, something on mummies, and "use 'x' to find out
> what that monster is"]

Something about Jellies, too.

> Identify
> [how and when to test stuff...]

Maybe a note that stat loss (from a troll trying on an un-IDed ring of
intelligence, say, or drinking an un-IDed potion of degeneration) can kill
you.

>
> [Some random notes on what still needs to be mentioned... burdened,
> friends, "Don't lean on keys.", autopickup, old messages, stashes,
> shops, separate caves (how to get out), random stairs, food,
> branches, Temple, Orcish Mines, Lair.]
>
> [Mention of Darshan's patch, don't know whether to put that at the
> top or the bottom, I'd prefer it at the top. ]
>
> Anything else?

"Gross! I found a slimy shield! What should I do?"

[Items with unusual descriptions -- "heavily runed", "slimy", "brightly
glowing", and many more -- are artifacts. Artifacts are special items that
often have unusual powers, and sometimes terrible curses. The powerful
magic of artifacts is such that merely wielding an artifact weapon or
wearing artifact armor is enough to identify the item. You can examine an
artifact's powers by using the [v]iew command.]

Also, stepping in deep water kills you unless you're levitating/flying or a
merfolk. I think the same goes for lava.

--
Jeremey

 

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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:56:20 GMT, "Jeremey Wilson"
<noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Maybe a note that stat loss (from a troll trying on an un-IDed ring of
>intelligence, say, or drinking an un-IDed potion of degeneration) can kill
>you.

And that if you have stat loss from being sick, don't worry too much:
it'll heal on its own. That can keep newbies from wasting potions
fixing a one-point drain on a stat they don't need the point on in the
first place.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:

>Jukka Kuusisto <jkuusist@cc.hut.fi> screamed:
>> I would suggest hunters. They usually survive at least until
>> running out of ammo Ammo can be collected from traps to some
>> extent.

>What race? My Gnome Hunters were dead faster than you could say
>'Gnome Hunter'. Others didn'f fare much better

I've won with a mountain dwarf hunter. They get a crossbow,
which does good damage. Bolts are harder to find than arrows
in the early game, though.

>> Fire elementalists rock, in my opinion.

>What race? My Dwarven Fire Elementalist (the one that didn't get
>killed by a bug in an older version) didn't get far, either.

My first victory was with a hill orc fire elementalist. Hill
orcs aren't great spellcasters, but they are buff and gain
experience levels fast.

>That's what I meant by unlucky combinations (when someone plays
>random characters). Some races fit certain roles better than
>others...

I enjoy trying every possible combination, but maybe I'm just
weird. So far I've played with all combinations but human thief,
hunter, transmuter and warper and demonspawn fighter.

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto

 

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On 3 Aug 04 17:41:49 GMT, jkuusist@cc.hut.fi (Jukka Kuusisto) wrote:

>I enjoy trying every possible combination, but maybe I'm just
>weird. So far I've played with all combinations but human thief,
>hunter, transmuter and warper and demonspawn fighter.

I'm playing through ten games with each combination and recording
results. Then I'll take the ones that do well and try with just those
to get a winner, if I don't get one during the trail process. I'll
share results when I'm done, although with a one-player sample size,
it won't be very meaningful. If others tried the same experiment, some
empirical data on race-class difficulty with some meaning could be
had.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:10:34 -0700, R. Dan Henry
<danhenry@inreach.com> wrote:

>I'm playing through ten games with each combination and recording
>results.

Note: This is taking awhile. It would take even longer for a better
player, who would have more characters survive for longer.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> screamed:
> Arien Malec <arien_malec@yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote:
>> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote

>>> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
>>> monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various
>>> effects from wielding/unwielding them?)
>>
>> Advanced topic, I think.

> I agree. Most games I never live to see a weapon of distortion
> and when I do, it is pretty unusual to have been hit with it
> first (and then survived to take it away, especially).

I got bad effects from quite a few weapons of distortion early on.
And when I get hit with it, I'd like to know what on earth happened.
This could be life-saving and does no harm to be added... (How many
hitpoints does the weapon steal when you wield it? I've got some
feeling of 'about 50', but am not sure. Adding that will give it
some proportion, because 'a lot' doesn't say much when you don't yet
know what 'a lot' is.)

> [...] Newbies need to know killing a mummy can be bad, they don't
> need a list of effects.

This kind of general information is what actually annoys me when
I've asked a straight question. "Bad? Well, you might think
different things bad than I." In the end the information is not
really all that helpful. Knowing what it does, on the other hand,
someone might chose to drop their healing potions and kill the
ah heck anyway.

> Note that player ghosts *won't* follow you up/down stairs. That
> little tip could save quite a few lives.

I've got that in already.

>>> Winning
>>> "What kind of character will be best on the long run (with
>>> the endgame in mind)?"
>>> [nothing yet]
>>
>> Not really a beginning topic.

> But a beginner question. And I actually think my answer is right
> on: Any character that survives.

That doesn't really help, and actually isn't quite true. Some
guys are easier early on but have a hard life in the endgame. Like
characters with zombies (Necromancers or Yredelemnul worshippers) go
relatively smoothly for quite some time, but in the end all your
zombies drop dead faster than you can yell at them to pound on the
orb guadians, and you're on your own.

> I guess one should mention that specialization is the way to go in
> order to get a character powerful enough to handle the late game.

Yep. I don't think I'd have remembered that.

--
Tina the Infuser - an Initiate of the Recently Notorious Greek

 

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On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 18:25:00 GMT+1, Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall)
wrote:

>
> That doesn't really help, and actually isn't quite true. Some
>guys are easier early on but have a hard life in the endgame. Like
>characters with zombies (Necromancers or Yredelemnul worshippers) go
>relatively smoothly for quite some time, but in the end all your
>zombies drop dead faster than you can yell at them to pound on the
>orb guadians, and you're on your own.

Really? I've never found undead hordes very useful in the early game,
either. They seem less effective than the more easily renewed mammal
pals of a summoner.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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Dalton Wudrich <dalton_wudrich@hotmail.com> croaked:
> Tina_Hall wrote:

> I'm still mostly a newbie, though I've played >200 games,

Hey, you could be half-way to winning with that. (My 400th character
actually escaped with the Orb. )

> I've yet to have a character reach level 20, or explore branches
> beyond the Mines, Halls, Lair & Snake Pit. (The Slime Pit killed
> one of my best characters to date, in mere seconds... :-(

Yes, good point. The Slime Pits are not to be visited unawares. That
needs to be mentioned among the branches, because the Lair itself
isn't too far into the game.

> Here's the resources I use to help off-set my newbieness:
[web pages]

Can't look at them to see what they have to say (no internet
access).

>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
> Crawl.txt suggests a Fighter. This is as good a suggestion as
> any.

That's the early game, and doesn't seem to fit Crawl as a general
rule as much as it is valid for other roguelikes.

>> - What monsters to look out for?
> - Anything you haven't seen before.
> - Anything at all, if not at full hitpoints.
> - Early game: anything that poisons, plus gnolls & orcs

Some people might not know what poisons you...

> - Level 10'ish: Elves, anything that you don't have a resistance
> to.

Which might not be clear just from looking at the monster.

>> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other
>> OOD monster) on DL:1?
> Hit "Q" then "Y", and try again!

Eh? If you're going to die, you might as well try to get away
instead, the 'how' is the point of the question.

>> General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like
>> to write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a
>> lot do do all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some
>> stuff).

> The game is designed so that you WILL die if you ever get
> 'comfortable' with a character.

Hmmm... Not really. Rather, those that still are somewhat
uncomfortable (as in lacking important things) tend to die... The
difference is knowing that you lack something, I think.

> 5 minutes after you think that a level has no challeges for your
> character, you WILL have Yet Another Stupid Death.

Or not. ;P

> My first 5+ promising characters died because of overconfidence.

Overconfidence is bad, but it's a different thing I think. You think
your character is better than he is instead of actually knowing what
your character can do (and thus be comfortable with him).

> Some examples: taking on too many 'easy' monsters with no escape
> plan, accidently wielding the wrong weapon when fighting a
> dangerous monster, not checking how many HP you have before going
> to the next level and not checking your equiped armor after trying
> on new goodies.

That isn't even overconfidence, but just not paying attention in my
case. <g> (I do that often enough... One game I sat there munching
on some chunks without looking at the screen, and some monster crept
up and started whacking me.)

> Other tips:
> Try playing one of each of these:
> - Fighter Human or Dwarven
> - Wizard: Human or Elven
> - Assassin: Halfling or Spriggan
> - Monk: Minotaur or Human
[...]

That's what the question on the role/race combo was aimed at.

Thanks.

--
Tina the Backstabber - an Elder of the Residual Nasty Gargoyle

 

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R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote in
news:5tjvg0d2g2urq8cng8k0im9beak66ps5iv@4ax.com:

> Fire elementists are a good beginner spell-caster. Very
> straight-forward way to get into Crawl magic.

The only disadvantage is that you have to get close to the beasties until
you gain a level (or two, depending on what race you play). That's why I
think Cj is a better beginning type.

Arien

 

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Jukka Kuusisto <jkuusist@cc.hut.fi> roared:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:
>> Jukka Kuusisto <jkuusist@cc.hut.fi> screamed:

>>> I would suggest hunters. They usually survive at least until
>>> running out of ammo Ammo can be collected from traps to some
>>> extent.

>> What race? My Gnome Hunters were dead faster than you could say
>> 'Gnome Hunter'. Others didn'f fare much better

> I've won with a mountain dwarf hunter. They get a crossbow,
> which does good damage. Bolts are harder to find than arrows
> in the early game, though.

Oddly, while Hill Dwarf (they're not that different from Mountain
Dwarves, though I've got two of them, too) Hunter seemed a nifty
combination, mine all died. Checking of what, they seemed to have
had particular bad luck, though... .

>>> Fire elementalists rock, in my opinion.

>> What race? My Dwarven Fire Elementalist (the one that didn't get
>> killed by a bug in an older version) didn't get far, either.

> My first victory was with a hill orc fire elementalist. Hill
> orcs aren't great spellcasters, but they are buff and gain
> experience levels fast.

Maybe the Hill Orc survived even as a spellcaster because you
hack&slash monsters even with spellcasters? (Proper spellcasters
like Deep Elves don't survive that easily, if at all...)

Aren't you the guy that plays every combination once and then the
next one or something like that? (Sorry, am bad with names.)

In that case it could be more coincidence that it happened to be a
Fire Elementalist...

I'll add it, though. It's an option for someone who wants to be a
mage but acts as a fighter.

>> That's what I meant by unlucky combinations (when someone plays
>> random characters). Some races fit certain roles better than
>> others...

> I enjoy trying every possible combination, but maybe I'm just
> weird. So far I've played with all combinations but human thief,
> hunter, transmuter and warper and demonspawn fighter.

Why not them?

--
Tina the Veteran - a Follower of the Representative Noble Grin

 

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R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> writes:

>I'm playing through ten games with each combination and recording
>results. Then I'll take the ones that do well and try with just those
>to get a winner, if I don't get one during the trail process.

I've won 5 times so far in the first round of combinations.
I've only played one game with each combination. When I've
finished this first round, I'll do the opposite of what you
described: I'll start with the combinations that were the
worst

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto