[Crawl] YAVP: Roach, ghoul fighter

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: Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26 character file.

: Roach the Boxer (Ghoul)
: (Level 27 Fighter)

Ghouls rule!

I've played ghouls before (lots of them, as a matter of fact - we're
talking dozens here), without success. My ghoulish thought processes
at the start of the game usually ponder such mysteries as:

* What is the right time to ditch my short sword and let my claws
do their thing?

* Do I go with dodging or heavy armor?

* How do I stop this hobgoblin from mangling my skull into new and
distressing shapes?

My answers to these questions have, until now, been profoundly
unsatisfactory. This time, I unwielded my short sword first thing,
wore the first piece of armour I found (ring mail) and graduated to
plate mail by D:4, which meant that most battles went like this:

The hobgoblin hits you but doesn't do any damage. x 50
Your armour prevents you from hitting the hobgoblin. x 40
The hobgoblin dies of old age!

This strategy worked well, apart from the odd ogre that I had to
resort to taking down with wands of random effects. I found loads of
wands of random effects in the early game, and I'm beginning to
actually like the things. Anything you want them to do, they do
eventually ("eventually" meaning "after a goshdarn long time", but
you can't have everything).

One of the first problems I ran into was the mysterious
non-appearance of the Ecumenical Temple. I went up and down levels 4
through 7, saying encouraging things like: "I know you're here
somewhere - come out if you know what's good for you!" These
invitations being ignored, it took me several scrolls of magic
mapping and a wand of digging before I could enlist Okawaru in the
cause of kidnapping the Orb.

Okawaru was inclined to sulk at my reluctance to offer him any
corpses. Naturally, I had better uses for the flesh of my fallen
enemies than seeing it consumed in bursts of flame, but try telling
him that! I was deep in the Lair before he allowed me to invoke
Might.

My ghoul predecessors have had some unpleasant encounters with
hydras, but this time I fancied I'd outgeneral these uncultured
monsters. As the first hydra of the Lair advanced on me, making rude
noises with all 8 of its heads, I called its attention to my +0
gloves.

"Observe, doomed creature," I said to it, "as I put on these gloves,
after which I shall be able to rend you limb from limb without you
being able to do any of that growing-back-two-heads-at-each-hit
silliness."

The hydra was on head 16 before I realised that my theory was
unsound. I beat a somewhat disorganised retreat and had to use a
wand of cold to convince all 16 heads of the hydra that I was not
edible.

I dealt with the Swamp after clearing out the rest of the Lair and
the Snake Pit (much slaying of nagas and all colours of snakes
involved, but very little damage to the hero of this story).

I had to spend a lot of wand-charges and ask Okawaru for Might very
frequently in the Swamp because of my firm policy of not fighting
hydras with more than 15 heads in melee. You'd be surprised how
many of those there were, especially after a few turns in melee.

Two runes in claw, I turned my ghoulish gaze to the Hive (lots of
tasty bees, yum!) and followed it up with an assault on the Mines
and Elven Halls.

I was doing splendidly in the Halls (or as splendidly as is possible
when my cruddy evasion meant I got nailed by every missile and spell
the elves cared to throw at me) until I hit the 3rd level where a
ruffianly deep elf sorcerer banished me to the Abyss. After
considerable bloodshed and destruction (to say nothing of wailing
and gnashing of teeth), I made my way back to the Elven Halls,
whereupon I was promptly banished again by the same sorcerer. After
another harrowing series of abyssal battles involving lots of
Executioners (ouch), I made my way back to the Elven Halls and
roasted that deep elf sorcerer with bolts of fire from a rod of
destruction.

Things went pretty smoothly after that in the Halls. I didn't get
banished again, and the vault on level 7 was a joke. For the first
time ever, I had a character who could run straight into the
vault without any of that namby-pamby lure-them-out stuff.

"Watch out lads!" yelled a deep elf high priest. "Here comes a
ghoul, if I'm not much mistaken! Eat hellfire!"

The hellfire did about 20 damage to me, which was barely a dent to
my 200+ hp, but it wiped out the three elves standing next to me.

The rest of the battle was the same story. I spared no effort in
wiping out those elves, and neither did they; in a particularly
inspired last effort, one of the demonologists called in a Green
Death that spewed out tons of poison gas, leaving all the elves
mortally poisoned before I killed it.

The Vaults were ridiculously easy; the Tomb was a stiff fight,
primarily because of the stat drain and the summoning-happy greater
mummies, but nothing a ghoul couldn't handle. After a brief
vacation in Hell, I cleared out the Slime Pits (it's delightful to
be able to simply walk up to the acid blob that's been spitting
viciously at you and smack it senseless). It was only when I'd wiped
out the royal jelly and its cohorts that I realised I had no
teleport control.

I visited Pandemonium, hoping for teleport control, and found a ring
of teleport control after trudging through dozens of levels. I
collected the slimy rune and briefly pondered going for an all-rune
win, but the game was getting boring, so I ended it with a quick
dive into Zot for the Orb.

: Play time: 17:10:22 Number of turns: 189472
^^^^^^
Slow.

: Experience : 27/2974481
: Strength 31 Dexterity 8 Intelligence 12
: Hit Points : 194/264 (283) Magic Points : 44
^^^^^^^
After the easy time I had in Pandemonium and Zot, I was surprised to
run into stiff resistance on my way back up. There was a
particularly ugly fight on D:15 where there were only two upstairs,
both guarded by masses of demons.

: AC : 40 Evasion : 17 Shield : 0

Nice EV, thanks to the ring of Shaolin.

: GP : 8565

Nothing to buy.

: You escaped.
: You worship Okawaru.
: Okawaru is exalted by your worship.
: You are not hungry.

: Inventory:
: Hand weapons
: a - the +7,+7 Sceptre of Asmodeus (1500 gold)
: It carries some of the powers of the arch-fiend Asmodeus.

: b - a +0 short sword (32 gold)

My starting short sword + butchering knife.

: l - the cursed +4,+4 Staff of Dispater (1200 gold)
: This legendary item can unleash the fury of Hell.
: It has a curse placed upon it.

: Armour

All armour supplied by Okawaru, except for the cloak of magic
resistance.

: g - a +1 crested helmet of intelligence (worn) (174 gold)
: m - the +1 cloak of Ciq (worn) (497 gold)
: It affects your intelligence (+2).
: It protects you from fire.
: It insulates you from electricity.
: It makes you much more stealthy.

: t - the +3 pair of gloves "E" (worn) (585 gold)
: It insulates you from electricity.
: It enhances your eyesight.

: v - the +4 pair of boots of Grot (worn) (567 gold)
: It affects your strength (+2).
: It protects you from magic.

: y - the +2 pair of boots of Impermeability (382 gold)
: It affects your dexterity (+4).

: D - the +3 plate mail "Wytid Potitexe" (worn) (1079 gold)
: It affects your accuracy (+4).
: It enhances your eyesight.
: It lets you turn invisible.

: E - a +2 cloak of magic resistance (209 gold)
: I - the +6 spiked helmet "Uwin Fu" (784 gold)

: N - a +1 cloak of preservation (111 gold)
: Comestibles
: z - 4 royal jellies (480 gold)
: P - 11 meat rations (440 gold)
: Scrolls
: h - 3 scrolls of remove curse (90 gold)
: j - 5 scrolls of identify (100 gold)
: C - 2 scrolls of blinking (60 gold)
: G - 5 scrolls of teleportation (150 gold)
: H - a scroll of detect curse (20 gold)
: K - a scroll of enchant armour (48 gold)

Almost all those scrolls are straight out of Pandemonium.

: Jewellery [snipped]
: c - the ring of Shaolin (right hand) (700 gold)
: It affects your evasion (+8).

Always good to have. Found in the Elven Halls' last level.

: i - the amulet "V Ral X" (around neck) (329 gold)
[conservation]
: It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+4).
[...]
: A - a ring of teleport control (294 gold)
: F - the ring "Uxonejyjo" (left hand) (665 gold)
[life protection]
: It greatly protects you from fire.

: Potions
: f - a potion of restore abilities (50 gold)
: o - 9 potions of heal wounds (270 gold)
: s - 9 potions of healing (180 gold)
: O - a potion of berserk rage (30 gold)

Don't ask me why I'm carrying that berserk rage potion.

: Magical staves
: e - a rod of destruction (250 gold)
: q - a rod of destruction (250 gold)
: w - a rod of discovery (150 gold)
: U - a rod of demonology (250 gold)

All from scrolls of acquirement. The rod of discovery was useful,
primarily for the Detect Traps, but a ghoul doesn't really need any
of these.

: Orbs of Power
: k - the Orb of Zot (250000 gold)

: Miscellaneous
: d - a magical rune of Zot (10000 gold)

I ran into Lom Lobon while trying to get out of Pandemonium, and he
kindly gave me this rune.

: B - a silver rune of Zot (10000 gold)
: J - a golden rune of Zot (10000 gold)
: M - a serpentine rune of Zot (10000 gold)
: Q - a demonic rune of Zot (10000 gold)
: R - a bone rune of Zot (10000 gold)
: S - an iron rune of Zot (10000 gold)
: T - a slimy rune of Zot (10000 gold)
: V - an icy rune of Zot (10000 gold)
: W - a decaying rune of Zot (10000 gold)
: Z - an obsidian rune of Zot (10000 gold)

All the runes from Hell, yeah!

: You have 19596 experience left.

My exp was pegged at >19k once I maxed out unarmed combat, fighting
and evocations.

: Skills:
: * Level 27 Fighting
: - Level 4 Short Blades
: - Level 1 Throwing
: + Level 19 Armour
: + Level 2 Dodging
: + Level 2 Stabbing
: - Level 2 Shields
: + Level 2 Traps & Doors
: * Level 27 Unarmed Combat
: + Level 1 Spellcasting
: + Level 14 Invocations
: * Level 27 Evocations

: You have 28 spell levels left.
: You don't know any spells.

Who needs spells? Besides, I didn't want to give up my plate mail
just for a couple of spells.

: Vanquished Creatures [snipped]
[bunch of random Pandemonic demons]
: Antaeus (Coc:7)
: Asmodeus (Geh:7)
: Ereshkigal (Tar:7)
: 4 orbs of fire
[...]
: 2 ancient liches (Zot:5)
: A Serpent of Hell (Geh:7)
: Lom Lobon (Pan)

"I have this magical rune that you might be interested in, my dear
sir, if you'll only let me live-" *Thwack* "Really?"

: A royal jelly (Slime:6)
[...]
: Geryon (Hell)

Wuss.

: 15 greater mummies

Brr. These things are always evil.

[...]
: Dispater (Dis:7)

Wuss.

: 33 Fiends

Hellfire is one of the few things that can concern a rampaging
ghoul.

: 25 Orb Guardians (Zot:5)

Easy.

: 36 Executioners

They made my first two visits to the Abyss extremely memorable, but
after a point they couldn't even scratch me.

: 3 spatial vortices (Coc:7)

They were busy hitting themselves; I just helped them along.

: A program bug (Abyss)

Hey, I got one too!

: 7304 creatures vanquished.

: 1. 2633796 Roach the Boxer (level 27, 194/264 (283) HPs)
: Began as a Ghoul Fighter on Dec 21, 2004.
: Was the Champion of Okawaru.
: Escaped with the Orb
: ... and 11 runes (of 11 types) on Dec 28, 2004!
: The game lasted 17:10:19 (189472 turns).

And that ends the long drought...

Darshan
 
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"Darshan Shaligram" <scintilla@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95CEAFC3D6A64scintillagmailcom@130.133.1.4...
> : Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26 character file.
>
> : Roach the Boxer (Ghoul)
> : (Level 27 Fighter)
>
> Ghouls rule!

Congrats! I started a batch of Ghouls a few days ago. The most promising one
(dragon armor, cloak of preservation, Nemelexite w/ Evocations @ 21) died last
night before seeing DL15 or the Vaults on his 4th (FOURTH!) trip to the Abyss.
Floating Eye with the assist, not sure what struck the killing blow. I'm still
bitter. Anyway, I was composing my YAVP in my head. It's eerie seeing somebody
else write it.

> I've played ghouls before (lots of them, as a matter of fact - we're
> talking dozens here), without success. My ghoulish thought processes
> at the start of the game usually ponder such mysteries as:
>
> * What is the right time to ditch my short sword and let my claws
> do their thing?
>
> * Do I go with dodging or heavy armor?
>
> * How do I stop this hobgoblin from mangling my skull into new and
> distressing shapes?
>
> My answers to these questions have, until now, been profoundly
> unsatisfactory. This time, I unwielded my short sword first thing,
> wore the first piece of armour I found (ring mail) and graduated to
> plate mail by D:4, which meant that most battles went like this:
>
> The hobgoblin hits you but doesn't do any damage. x 50
> Your armour prevents you from hitting the hobgoblin. x 40
> The hobgoblin dies of old age!

I've been shocked by how slowly the Unarmed Combat goes up in the beginning.
Why do Ghouls and Mummies start out with short swords they can't use? And why
does every other kind of fighter get to pick a weapon? Because they have so
many advantages that they need the early game to be harder?

> This strategy worked well, apart from the odd ogre that I had to
> resort to taking down with wands of random effects. I found loads of
> wands of random effects in the early game, and I'm beginning to
> actually like the things. Anything you want them to do, they do
> eventually ("eventually" meaning "after a goshdarn long time", but
> you can't have everything).

They can haste that Jelly, for instance.

[...]

> The hydra was on head 16 before I realised that my theory was
> unsound. I beat a somewhat disorganised retreat and had to use a
> wand of cold to convince all 16 heads of the hydra that I was not
> edible.

Yeah, this should be a bug, right? Do ghouls even have claws? Why can they
wear gloves at all?

[...]

>
> I visited Pandemonium, hoping for teleport control, and found a ring
> of teleport control after trudging through dozens of levels. I
> collected the slimy rune and briefly pondered going for an all-rune
> win, but the game was getting boring, so I ended it with a quick
> dive into Zot for the Orb.

The entire point of playing a ghoul is an all-rune game, isn't it? Somebody
explain to me how to keep a MuFi alive.

> : g - a +1 crested helmet of intelligence (worn) (174 gold)
> : m - the +1 cloak of Ciq (worn) (497 gold)
> : It affects your intelligence (+2).
> : It protects you from fire.
> : It insulates you from electricity.
> : It makes you much more stealthy.

Nice.

> : t - the +3 pair of gloves "E" (worn) (585 gold)
> : It insulates you from electricity.
> : It enhances your eyesight.

Wearing gloves _does_ really weaken your attacks, doesn't it?

> : I - the +6 spiked helmet "Uwin Fu" (784 gold)
> : i - the amulet "V Ral X" (around neck) (329 gold)
> [conservation]
> : It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+4).
> [...]

Oh, man! Supersweet!

> : Potions
> : f - a potion of restore abilities (50 gold)
> : o - 9 potions of heal wounds (270 gold)
> : s - 9 potions of healing (180 gold)
> : O - a potion of berserk rage (30 gold)

Why are you carrying around a potion of berserk rage?

> : Magical staves
> : e - a rod of destruction (250 gold)
> : q - a rod of destruction (250 gold)
> : w - a rod of discovery (150 gold)
> : U - a rod of demonology (250 gold)
>
> All from scrolls of acquirement. The rod of discovery was useful,
> primarily for the Detect Traps, but a ghoul doesn't really need any
> of these.

The only one I found in my most recent game was Smiting (no scrolls of
acquirement; my first deck of cards was Wonder, and my first card was
acquisition). Ghouls can't use Smiting. Why not? Got it from an acquisition
card; why give me something I can't use? It trains Evocations and uses magic,
even though you can't smite anything with it; why?

--
Jeremey
 
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"Jeremey Wilson" <noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Darshan Shaligram" <scintilla@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95CEAFC3D6A64scintillagmailcom@130.133.1.4...
>> : Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26 character file.

>> : Roach the Boxer (Ghoul)
>> : (Level 27 Fighter)

>> Ghouls rule!

> Congrats!

Thanks!

> I started a batch of Ghouls a few days ago. The most promising
> one (dragon armor, cloak of preservation, Nemelexite w/ Evocations
> @ 21) died last night before seeing DL15 or the Vaults on his 4th
> (FOURTH!) trip to the Abyss.

How on earth did you work in four trips to the Abyss so early? :)

> I've been shocked by how slowly the Unarmed Combat goes up in the
> beginning. Why do Ghouls and Mummies start out with short swords
> they can't use? And why does every other kind of fighter get to
> pick a weapon? Because they have so many advantages that they
> need the early game to be harder?

Quite possible. It's amazing how easy they are once they get
rolling. I think they need some rebalancing.

[wands of random effects]
>> Anything you want them to do, they do eventually ("eventually"
>> meaning "after a goshdarn long time", but you can't have
>> everything).

> They can haste that Jelly, for instance.

No jelly problems, but I had some serious troubles with invisible,
hasted ogres early on.

> [...]
>> The hydra was on head 16 before I realised that my theory was
>> unsound. I beat a somewhat disorganised retreat and had to use a
>> wand of cold to convince all 16 heads of the hydra that I was not
>> edible.

> Yeah, this should be a bug, right? Do ghouls even have claws?
> Why can they wear gloves at all?

Maybe they're retractable claws? :)

> [...]
>> I visited Pandemonium, hoping for teleport control, and found a
>> ring of teleport control after trudging through dozens of levels.
>> I collected the slimy rune and briefly pondered going for an
>> all-rune win, but the game was getting boring, so I ended it with
>> a quick dive into Zot for the Orb.

> The entire point of playing a ghoul is an all-rune game, isn't it?

No, my aim was just to go clear Hell, something I've come close to,
but never actually accomplished with other characters. I simply
don't have the patience for an all-runer. It's too much like playing
a NetHack extinctionist.

> Somebody explain to me how to keep a MuFi alive.

I've had better luck with mummy necromancers, although they tend to
have major difficulties with orange statues.

>> : t - the +3 pair of gloves "E" (worn) (585 gold)
>> : It insulates you from electricity.
>> : It enhances your eyesight.

> Wearing gloves _does_ really weaken your attacks, doesn't it?

A bit, but not enough to matter. Hell, towards the end I kept
accidentally killing Executioners with my short sword when I was
interrupted in the middle of butchering a corpse.

>> : Potions
[...]
>> : O - a potion of berserk rage (30 gold)

> Why are you carrying around a potion of berserk rage?

A lapse of reason. Ghouls aren't noted for being bright, after all.
I remember picking it up in Pandemonium and keeping it around, with
the vague idea that it might be useful. It wasn't until the game was
done that I recalled that berserking doesn't happen for undead.

>> : Magical staves
>> : e - a rod of destruction (250 gold)
>> : q - a rod of destruction (250 gold)
>> : w - a rod of discovery (150 gold)
>> : U - a rod of demonology (250 gold)
[...]
> The only one I found in my most recent game was Smiting (no
> scrolls of acquirement; my first deck of cards was Wonder, and my
> first card was acquisition). Ghouls can't use Smiting. Why not?

I understood that smiting involves calling on one of the "good"
gods; undead can't do that.

> Got it from an acquisition card; why give me something I can't
> use?

Oh, acquirement does that all the time.

> It trains Evocations and uses magic, even though you can't smite
> anything with it; why?

Good question there. Perhaps it should continue to train evocations
and use mp, but simply smite you if you're undead?

Darshan
 
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bork bork bork Jeremey Wilson bork 1:53:41 PM bork 12/29/2004 bork bork:

> > All from scrolls of acquirement. The rod of discovery was useful,
> > primarily for the Detect Traps, but a ghoul doesn't really need any
> > of these.
>
> The only one I found in my most recent game was Smiting (no scrolls of
> acquirement; my first deck of cards was Wonder, and my first card was
> acquisition). Ghouls can't use Smiting. Why not? Got it from an
> acquisition card; why give me something I can't use? It trains Evocations
> and uses magic, even though you can't smite anything with it; why?

While on an experience-rich vacation in Pandemonium yesterday, I brought
along some utility/educational materials, including a stone of earth
elementals. When I applied it repeatedly to a "wall of the weird stuff that
makes up Pandemonium," I never summoned any earth elementals, but I did train
my Evocations. (And it seemed to be inexhaustible, so it would seem that --
with reference to a recent thread -- there are some inexhaustible "}"s that
train Evocations, after all.)

Erik
 
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"Darshan Shaligram" <scintilla@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95CEBF8745C7Bscintillagmailcom@130.133.1.4...
> "Jeremey Wilson" <noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > I started a batch of Ghouls a few days ago. The most promising
> > one (dragon armor, cloak of preservation, Nemelexite w/ Evocations
> > @ 21) died last night before seeing DL15 or the Vaults on his 4th
> > (FOURTH!) trip to the Abyss.
>
> How on earth did you work in four trips to the Abyss so early? :)

I believe it was Erolcha, Zot trap, Ogre Mage, Orc with mace of disortion.

Jerm the Ghoul, now in his fourth iteration (or, if you count the ones killed by
hobgoblins on DL1, 27,483rd iteration), is currently in Pandemonium, with Str
46, Int 28, Dex 31 (he's a Nemelexite), +4, +4 rings of slaying on each hand
(actually just swapped for rings of sustenance, but they're available) and a +3
to damage amulet around his neck, and is getting very, very bored. (Satisfying,
though: surround yourself with Ice Demons and Executioners, haste yourself, and
kill as many as you can before they get an attack in. I think 8 should be
possible. My record's 5. HINT: drink a potion of might, and go for the
executioners first). Got all the Pandemonium runes, looking for a way out.
Needs the Abyssal one and the Tomb. May not actually be able to get either,
because food is becoming a problem.

> > I've been shocked by how slowly the Unarmed Combat goes up in the
> > beginning. Why do Ghouls and Mummies start out with short swords
> > they can't use? And why does every other kind of fighter get to
> > pick a weapon? Because they have so many advantages that they
> > need the early game to be harder?
>
> Quite possible. It's amazing how easy they are once they get
> rolling. I think they need some rebalancing.

Judging from my experience, the fact that they can only eat meat and can't get
full is a pretty powerful check on their late game activities. Normally I end
up with more food coming out of Pandemonium than I had going in. This time I'm
blasting through decks of wonder, hoping for Acquisition so I can get some food.
Aside from that, without looking I'm going to guess their magic resistance is
terrible, because it sure seems that whenever anybody casts anything at me, it
works.

I don't think the fact that they can beat Hell and rip through Pandemonium
without too much trouble means they're necessarily unbalanced. It might be
better to just throw a few things in the Tomb and Hell that can spook you even
if you're torment-resistant.

> > The entire point of playing a ghoul is an all-rune game, isn't it?
>
> No, my aim was just to go clear Hell, something I've come close to,
> but never actually accomplished with other characters. I simply
> don't have the patience for an all-runer. It's too much like playing
> a NetHack extinctionist.

As if NH isn't tedious enough without special conducts.

(I'm trying to start a fight.)

> [...]
> > The only one I found in my most recent game was Smiting (no
> > scrolls of acquirement; my first deck of cards was Wonder, and my
> > first card was acquisition). Ghouls can't use Smiting. Why not?
>
> I understood that smiting involves calling on one of the "good"
> gods; undead can't do that.

Orc priests aren't good. Are they?

> > Got it from an acquisition card; why give me something I can't
> > use?
>
> Oh, acquirement does that all the time.

I know, but it makes me so angry.

--
Jeremey
 
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bork bork bork Jeremey Wilson bork 6:12:02 PM bork 1/3/2005 bork bork:

> As if NH isn't tedious enough without special conducts.
>
> (I'm trying to start a fight.)

Criticizing *Nethack* on rgrm is not a particular effective way to do it (not
guaranteed not to work, mind you, but a risky proposition). Perhaps you
should start praising Angband instead. :)

Erik
 
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Jeremey Wilson wrote:
> "Darshan Shaligram" <scintilla@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95CEBF8745C7Bscintillagmailcom@130.133.1.4...

> > How on earth did you work in four trips to the Abyss so early?
> > :)

> I believe it was Erolcha, Zot trap, Ogre Mage, Orc with mace of
> disortion.

Sounds like a nice run of luck there.

> Jerm the Ghoul, now in his fourth iteration (or, if you count the
> ones killed by hobgoblins on DL1, 27,483rd iteration), is
> currently in Pandemonium, with Str 46, Int 28, Dex 31 (he's a
> Nemelexite),

We'd never have guessed. :)

> Judging from my experience, the fact that they can only eat meat
> and can't get full is a pretty powerful check on their late game
> activities.

When I have something like 30+ meat rations in hand, and a whole
stack of Hive food, it doesn't feel like a check on their activities
at all.

> I don't think the fact that they can beat Hell and rip through
> Pandemonium without too much trouble means they're necessarily
> unbalanced.

The fact that they can go anywhere and do anything without being
scratched means they're horribly unbalanced, if you ask me. I expect
Crawl to keep me on my toes even in the endgame, and it fails
when it comes to ghouls and mummies.

> > > The entire point of playing a ghoul is an all-rune game, isn't
> > > it?

> > No, my aim was just to go clear Hell, something I've come close
> > to, but never actually accomplished with other characters. I
> > simply don't have the patience for an all-runer. It's too much
> > like playing a NetHack extinctionist.

> As if NH isn't tedious enough without special conducts.

That would be a more credible statement if you weren't doing the
3000-year tour of Pandemonium with a ghoul. :)

> (I'm trying to start a fight.)

I don't seem to have Stormbringer at hand, but a few sacrifices
ought to do it...

> > [...]
> > > The only one I found in my most recent game was Smiting (no
> > > scrolls of acquirement; my first deck of cards was Wonder, and
> > > my first card was acquisition). Ghouls can't use Smiting.
> > > Why not?

> > I understood that smiting involves calling on one of the "good"
> > gods; undead can't do that.

> Orc priests aren't good. Are they?

I don't know about orc priests, but smoke demons can also do the
smiting thing, and I don't think we can call smoke demons good guys.
So the smiting thing is probably a question for Brent.

> > > Got it from an acquisition card; why give me something I can't
> > > use?

> > Oh, acquirement does that all the time.

> I know, but it makes me so angry.

If acquirement were to give you good stuff all the time, why, you
could be playing NetHack. :)

Darshan
 
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Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Jeremey Wilson bork 6:12:02 PM bork 1/3/2005 bork
> bork:

> > As if NH isn't tedious enough without special conducts.

> > (I'm trying to start a fight.)

> Criticizing *Nethack* on rgrm is not a particular effective way to
> do it (not guaranteed not to work, mind you, but a risky
> proposition). Perhaps you should start praising Angband instead.
> :)

What do you have against Angband, anyway? If mindless tedium is your
thing, there is no finer game. :)

Darshan
 
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bork bork bork scintilla@gmail.com bork 12:27:14 PM bork 1/4/2005 bork bork:

[...]

> What do you have against Angband, anyway? If mindless tedium is your
> thing, there is no finer game. :)

Oh, there is *one*: Civilization (well, if we don't insist too much on the
"mindless" part, at least).

Erik
 
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On 4 Jan 2005 03:27:14 -0800, scintilla@gmail.com wrote:

>Erik Piper wrote:
>> bork bork bork Jeremey Wilson bork 6:12:02 PM bork 1/3/2005 bork
>> bork:
>
>> > As if NH isn't tedious enough without special conducts.
>
>> > (I'm trying to start a fight.)
>
>> Criticizing *Nethack* on rgrm is not a particular effective way to
>> do it (not guaranteed not to work, mind you, but a risky
>> proposition). Perhaps you should start praising Angband instead.
>> :)
>
>What do you have against Angband, anyway? If mindless tedium is your
>thing, there is no finer game. :)

Or if you want a tough, tactical game you play Angband without cheesy
scum-tactics.

R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
 
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In article <1104831002.972385.181570@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
<scintilla@gmail.com> wrote:
// Jeremey Wilson wrote:
// > > I understood that smiting involves calling on one of the "good"
// > > gods; undead can't do that.
//
// > Orc priests aren't good. Are they?
//
// I don't know about orc priests, but smoke demons can also do the
// smiting thing, and I don't think we can call smoke demons good guys.
// So the smiting thing is probably a question for Brent.

Orc Priest worship the evil cave orc god, Lord BOG [1]. Demons and
undead and other monsters can also be assumed to be using some form
of unholy smiting. The smiting that comes in sticks, however, is
holy smiting.

Brent Ross


[1] Brian's (BCR) Orc God. BOG was referenced by name in the speach
code at one point, but that caused problems... the deep elf priests also
ended up worshiping him that way, and they are playable as a PC (and why
would they even be worshiping some orc god anyways... especially one
who only accepts cave orc followers). The priest monster descriptions
still elude to these unnamed gods.