D&D Equivalent to Unix "Touch"

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There is a unix command that allows you to update datestamps and stuff on
files in the directory structure. (I'm sure it has other uses, I'm not a
unix geek).

Is there a spell in D&D that will allow lesser wizards to create something,
and then have it resist the effects of a dispel magic at a higher level?

For example, a minor wizard casts some citybuilding spell(Continual Light,
say) in some city. The wizards in the city don't want them to be dispelled
at will, so they get their big wizard dude to run around every now and then
and "shore up" the caster level of the spell in question with this "Touch"
spell or whatever you'd want to call it. Instead of being dispelled as if a
caster of 3rd level, now you're dispelling the spell as a caster of 20th+
level. The first guy casts the spell, the second guy casts "Touch" and it
updates the caster level to 20th level or whatever the level of the caster
of touch.

It's really roughly laid out, I know, but thoughts are appreciated.

BTW, I don't know if the rules for dispelling are different in 3E, but in
2E, you have a base 50% chance, +- 5% per level of difference between the
casters.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
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Michael Scott Brown wrote:

> That's complete cheese, Jeffie. You have the 20th level caster
casting
> a spell. Imagine what happens if he .. casts the spell himself! Why
involve
> the lower level caster at all? Foolish. If the high level caster
doesn't
> know the spell, have the rookie write him a scroll.

What if he's a specialist? If it's a school he can't cast in the first
place a scroll won't do him any good.

Furthermore, I don't think it's nessisarily unrealistic as a situation.
I can eaasily see a high level caster being willing to "shore up
defenses" but being unwililng to do the magical equivalent of servant's
work. This happens IRL all the time (though not with magic,
obviously). I code some grunt stuff and a much better programmer will
look at it and make minor alterations to enhance stability.
 
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Michael Scott Brown wrote:

> Use a little logic here, jackass. The wizard apparently has the
time to
> cast a bunch of empowering spells on every spell someone else has
cast -
> whatever "work" he does, it INCLUDES CASTING A SPELL FOR EVERY SINGLE
SPELL
> THEY WANT REINFORCED.

I think what is or is not in character for a specific high level wizard
seems to be best left out of a debate.

> > The minor caster casts the appropriate spells,
> > and maybe this spell would be an area effect type of thing,
affecting
> dozens
> > of spells at once or something.
>
> Wish. Carry on!

This I agree with. If he's that high a level wish (or the lesser
version thereof) will do this just fine.

Then again, this seems like a basic enough concept that it shouldn't
require a wish to get it done. I don't think a spell that accomplishes
this should be more than first level, personally. Just have it scale
in size with caster level (ten feet or so plus 5/level) and you make a
caster level check versus the caster of the spell. if you succeed the
level based effects take on your own properties.

I wouldn't call it particularly useful, but not bad for utility. I've
always thought the game was a touch light of actual utility spells
anyway, and this one is interesting. it sounds like the sort of thing
magic geeks would come up with to me.
 
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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:nt6dndKLTdSE6qrfRVn-tg@comcast.com...
> Instead of being dispelled as if a
> caster of 3rd level, now you're dispelling the spell as a caster of 20th+
> level. The first guy casts the spell, the second guy casts "Touch" and it
> updates the caster level to 20th level or whatever the level of the caster
> of touch.
> It's really roughly laid out, I know, but thoughts are appreciated.

That's complete cheese, Jeffie. You have the 20th level caster casting
a spell. Imagine what happens if he .. casts the spell himself! Why involve
the lower level caster at all? Foolish. If the high level caster doesn't
know the spell, have the rookie write him a scroll.

> BTW, I don't know if the rules for dispelling are different in 3E,

What about the words "online SRD" don't you understand?

-Michael
 
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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tPSZd.12156$cN6.11038@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> That's complete cheese, Jeffie. You have the 20th level caster
casting
> a spell. Imagine what happens if he .. casts the spell himself! Why
involve
> the lower level caster at all? Foolish. If the high level caster doesn't
> know the spell, have the rookie write him a scroll.

Maybe he's got other stuff to do? You know, a high level wizard's work is
never done, type of thing. The minor caster casts the appropriate spells,
and maybe this spell would be an area effect type of thing, affecting dozens
of spells at once or something. Maybe the high level wizard just doesn't
want to be bothered with such trivialities. I don't know, I'm just
spitballing.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:geydnWjEq7NhvqXfRVn-jA@comcast.com...
> "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:tPSZd.12156$cN6.11038@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > That's complete cheese, Jeffie. You have the 20th level caster
casting
> > a spell. Imagine what happens if he .. casts the spell himself! Why
involve
> > the lower level caster at all? Foolish. If the high level caster
doesn't
> > know the spell, have the rookie write him a scroll.
>
> Maybe he's got other stuff to do? You know, a high level wizard's work is
> never done, type of thing.

Use a little logic here, jackass. The wizard apparently has the time to
cast a bunch of empowering spells on every spell someone else has cast -
whatever "work" he does, it INCLUDES CASTING A SPELL FOR EVERY SINGLE SPELL
THEY WANT REINFORCED. .

Is there any arena where you can actually display even the smallest,
tiniest shred of *thought* before posting?

> The minor caster casts the appropriate spells,
> and maybe this spell would be an area effect type of thing, affecting
dozens
> of spells at once or something.

Wish. Carry on!

-Michael
 
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In article <nt6dndKLTdSE6qrfRVn-tg@comcast.com>, autockr@comcast.net wrote:

>There is a unix command that allows you to update datestamps and stuff on
>files in the directory structure. (I'm sure it has other uses, I'm not a
>unix geek).
>
>Is there a spell in D&D that will allow lesser wizards to create something,
>and then have it resist the effects of a dispel magic at a higher level?

Don't be silly; either Heighten it and/or have someone other than the
apprentice cast the spell.
 

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Alien mind control rays made Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> write:
> There is a unix command that allows you to update datestamps and stuff on
> files in the directory structure. (I'm sure it has other uses, I'm not a
> unix geek).
>
> Is there a spell in D&D that will allow lesser wizards to create something,
> and then have it resist the effects of a dispel magic at a higher level?

"Why are you looking at me like that? I just said that our
arch-nemesis has probably gone up a level or two since we last saw him,
of course I'd want to update my own permanent buffs. When I think
about him, i Touch myself."

regarding your situation, the lower-level spell is always Suggestion,
cast upon the higher level wizard to compel them to cast the other
spell in the first place. but i'd caution, high level wizards have
excellent Will saves and often tons of Fireballs at their disposal.

--
\^\ // drow@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
\ // - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
// \ X-Windows: The cutting edge of obsolescence.
// \_\ -- Dude from DPAK
 
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Mere moments before death, Anivair hastily scrawled:
>
>Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>
>> That's complete cheese, Jeffie. You have the 20th level caster
>casting
>> a spell. Imagine what happens if he .. casts the spell himself! Why
>involve
>> the lower level caster at all? Foolish. If the high level caster
>doesn't
>> know the spell, have the rookie write him a scroll.
>
>What if he's a specialist?

Then the city hires a wizard who can cast the spells they need, and
the specialist gets his walking papers.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
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"Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110985536.240646.167840@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> What if he's a specialist? If it's a school he can't cast in the first
> place a scroll won't do him any good.

Then why on earth should he be expected to be able to augment an
opposition spell in the first place?

> Furthermore, I don't think it's nessisarily unrealistic as a situation.
> I can eaasily see a high level caster being willing to "shore up
> defenses" but being unwililng to do the magical equivalent of servant's
> work.

Hmm. Go to place, cast spell. Go to place, cast spell. Same work.

-Michael
 
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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:QZ_Zd.12365$cN6.976@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote

>> Furthermore, I don't think it's nessisarily unrealistic as a situation.
>> I can eaasily see a high level caster being willing to "shore up
>> defenses" but being unwililng to do the magical equivalent of servant's
>> work.
>
> Hmm. Go to place, cast spell. Go to place, cast spell. Same work.

Something allowing a caster to "bolster" a magic item up to a higher caster
level seems like a useful thing, particularly with signature items that are
added to over the course of many levels. It would be nice to have a spell
or something to accomplish this without resorting to Wish.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:QZ_Zd.12365$cN6.976@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > Furthermore, I don't think it's nessisarily unrealistic as a situation.
> > I can eaasily see a high level caster being willing to "shore up
> > defenses" but being unwililng to do the magical equivalent of servant's
> > work.
>
> Hmm. Go to place, cast spell. Go to place, cast spell. Same work.

Maybe it's something the high level wizard only does infrequently. He waits
until the minor wizards cast all the spells required, and then takes an
entire day's worth of this single spell that will boost the power of each
spell in question. And maybe such a spell would cover an area, not just a
single other spell.

A high level wizard may not want to trivialize his power by casting
continual lights like some minor wizard would do to assist a city, who know?

Geez this was just a thought, it's not like the details are all worked out,
or even ever would be. It seems to me that you would think it would be
useless because the high level wizard could cast the spells in question and
be done with it, right? I suppose that's a valid enough position, assuming
high level wizards don't have anything better to do with their time.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
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Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
>There is a unix command that allows you to update datestamps and stuff on
>files in the directory structure. (I'm sure it has other uses, I'm not a
>unix geek).
>
>Is there a spell in D&D that will allow lesser wizards to create something,
>and then have it resist the effects of a dispel magic at a higher level?

I would allow Permanency to do this. Costs XP as usual, though.

Donald
 
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"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1PWdnfJDlpNwFqXfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
> > Hmm. Go to place, cast spell. Go to place, cast spell. Same work.
>
> Something allowing a caster to "bolster" a magic item up to a higher
caster
> level seems like a useful thing, particularly with signature items that
are
> added to over the course of many levels. It would be nice to have a spell
> or something to accomplish this without resorting to Wish.

A *magic item* can be re-enchanted at the higher caster level as easy as
you please. It's not immediately clear to me whether this would cost the
same as making it from scratch or not.

-Michael
 
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Michael Scott Brown <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1PWdnfJDlpNwFqXfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
>> > Hmm. Go to place, cast spell. Go to place, cast spell. Same work.
>>
>> Something allowing a caster to "bolster" a magic item up to a higher
> caster
>> level seems like a useful thing, particularly with signature items that
> are
>> added to over the course of many levels. It would be nice to have a spell
>> or something to accomplish this without resorting to Wish.
>
> A *magic item* can be re-enchanted at the higher caster level as
> easy as you please. It's not immediately clear to me whether this
> would cost the same as making it from scratch or not.

It wouldn't. Upgrading a item costs based on the delta in market value.

Consider: bumping a sword from +1 to +2 only costs 6k gold, not 8k.
Bumping a wand from caster level 3 to caster level 5 should only cost
750 * 2 * $spelllevel * $chargesleft / 50, if you were to allow it.

Wands might not be a good example, actually. RAW, you can't recharge
them (i.e. add more power to them), I can see this being an argument
against allowing level bumps. Ruling out upgrading charged items may be
quite reasonable.

Actually, probably disallow upgrading of 'single-spell charged items'
(wands, scrolls, potions).

A wizard's staff is a bigger symbol, and upgrading the staff certainly
has precedent. Even if you disallow upgrading other charged items, I'd
strongly consider upgrading the staff (especially since caster level is
based on user level anyway, if it exceeds the level of the staff).


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13
 
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In article <1110985821.031674.133950@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Anivair <anivair@gmail.com> wrote:
>Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>> Use a little logic here, jackass. The wizard apparently has the
>time to
>> cast a bunch of empowering spells on every spell someone else has
>cast -
>> whatever "work" he does, it INCLUDES CASTING A SPELL FOR EVERY SINGLE
>SPELL
>> THEY WANT REINFORCED.
>
>> > The minor caster casts the appropriate spells,
>> > and maybe this spell would be an area effect type of thing,
>affecting
>> dozens
>> > of spells at once or something.
>>
>> Wish. Carry on!
>
>This I agree with. If he's that high a level wish (or the lesser
>version thereof) will do this just fine.
>
>Then again, this seems like a basic enough concept that it shouldn't
>require a wish to get it done. I don't think a spell that accomplishes
>this should be more than first level, personally. Just have it scale
>in size with caster level (ten feet or so plus 5/level) and you make a
>caster level check versus the caster of the spell. if you succeed the
>level based effects take on your own properties.

I still don't see this answering MSB's point above -- why have a high-level
caster go around casting "fixup" spells rather than the original spells
herself? It might work out better as a feat with some large number of uses
per day.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
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"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:d1a5i1$69h$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> I still don't see this answering MSB's point above -- why have a
high-level
> caster go around casting "fixup" spells rather than the original spells
> herself? It might work out better as a feat with some large number of
uses
> per day.

Maybe such a spell could affect an area rather than a single effect? That
would bump it's level up, for sure, but even with such a level bump, it
would probably be more effective if you were shoring up, say, city defenses.
You've got a city of limited wizards, and only one really high level guy.
Let the guys who are of minimum casting level do the grunt work, and then
have the high level guy come in and cast "Touch/Bump/Shoreup/whatever" on
the end result of many wizard's work to give it a little more permanence.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
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"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
news:slrnd3h4m3.qsv.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
> Michael Scott Brown <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > A *magic item* can be re-enchanted at the higher caster level as
> > easy as you please. It's not immediately clear to me whether this
> > would cost the same as making it from scratch or not.
>
> It wouldn't. Upgrading a item costs based on the delta in market value.

Very true. I was just musing about those items that don't have
caster-level based pricing (my recollection is that many wondrous items are
insensitive to manufacturer level). This has long been what I think is a
big oversight in the rules (after all, would not a far more durable set of
Boots of Speed be worth more?) - and without addressing that, we have a
strange situation - how does a wizard who made his Item of Foo back when he
was 10th level crank it up to creator-level 20 without making it again from
scratch?


-Michael
 
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Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>>> A *magic item* can be re-enchanted at the higher caster level as
>>> easy as you please. It's not immediately clear to me whether this
>>> would cost the same as making it from scratch or not.

Keith Davies wrote:
>> It wouldn't. Upgrading a item costs based on the delta in market value.

> Very true. I was just musing about those items that don't have
> caster-level based pricing (my recollection is that many wondrous
> items are insensitive to manufacturer level).

Indeed, CL only rarely increases the cost of a wondrous item, because
wondrous spell effects always use the lowest possible caster level in
the CL x SL x gp calculation. For example, items that produce lesser
restoration effects have a cost of 1 x 1 x base, because paladins can
cast it as a 1st-level spell.

> This has long been what I think is a big oversight in the rules (after
> all, would not a far more durable set of Boots of Speed be worth
> more?) - and without addressing that, we have a strange situation -
> how does a wizard who made his Item of Foo back when he was 10th level
> crank it up to creator-level 20 without making it again from scratch?

Easy, he uses the upgrade rules. Since there's no difference in cost,
the upgrade is free, except for the creation time (minimum 1 day, as
usual).
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
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Bradd W. Szonye <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
>For example, items that produce lesser restoration effects have a
>cost of 1 x 1 x base, because paladins can cast it as a 1st-level
>spell.

Actually, 1 x 2 x base, since a Paladin gains spells at 4th level
(Caster Level = 2)...

Donald
 
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"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd3h8ju.ouf.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> > This has long been what I think is a big oversight in the rules (after
> > all, would not a far more durable set of Boots of Speed be worth
> > more?) - and without addressing that, we have a strange situation -
> > how does a wizard who made his Item of Foo back when he was 10th level
> > crank it up to creator-level 20 without making it again from scratch?
>
> Easy, he uses the upgrade rules. Since there's no difference in cost,
> the upgrade is free, except for the creation time (minimum 1 day, as
> usual).

I'm open to that solution (and, in the absence of other information, it
is _the_ answer). The item isn't any more effective in such cases, it just
resists dispels better. Wa-hoo. I don't see any problem making a wizard
spend a few days to "bolster his items" when he levels. Perhaps that's what
they were doing all that time when we had training rules. :)

Raises an interesting implication - any spellcaster NPC's wondrous items
ought to be at his creator level, not the default...

-Michael
 
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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Nu1_d.12467$cN6.6819@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
> news:slrnd3h8ju.ouf.bradd+news@szonye.com...
>> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>> > This has long been what I think is a big oversight in the rules (after
>> > all, would not a far more durable set of Boots of Speed be worth
>> > more?) - and without addressing that, we have a strange situation -
>> > how does a wizard who made his Item of Foo back when he was 10th level
>> > crank it up to creator-level 20 without making it again from scratch?
>>
>> Easy, he uses the upgrade rules. Since there's no difference in cost,
>> the upgrade is free, except for the creation time (minimum 1 day, as
>> usual).

What page are the upgrade rules on?

> I'm open to that solution (and, in the absence of other information, it
> is _the_ answer). The item isn't any more effective in such cases, it
> just
> resists dispels better. Wa-hoo. I don't see any problem making a wizard
> spend a few days to "bolster his items" when he levels. Perhaps that's
> what
> they were doing all that time when we had training rules. :)

Sounds good to me.

> Raises an interesting implication - any spellcaster NPC's wondrous
> items
> ought to be at his creator level, not the default...

Sure thing.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6bKdnXhGaPOFMKXfRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
> Maybe such a spell could affect an area rather than a single effect?

And what area, pray tell, is littered with low-level caster's spells
that need shoring up against dispels?

-Michael
 
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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:U72_d.10304$oO4.7220@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:6bKdnXhGaPOFMKXfRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
> > Maybe such a spell could affect an area rather than a single effect?
>
> And what area, pray tell, is littered with low-level caster's spells
> that need shoring up against dispels?

The various "wall of X" type spells, for example.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
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On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:16:53 -0500, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
scribed into the ether:

>"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:tPSZd.12156$cN6.11038@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> That's complete cheese, Jeffie. You have the 20th level caster
>casting
>> a spell. Imagine what happens if he .. casts the spell himself! Why
>involve
>> the lower level caster at all? Foolish. If the high level caster doesn't
>> know the spell, have the rookie write him a scroll.
>
>Maybe he's got other stuff to do?

So, he has better things to do than to cast Continual Flame on lampposts,
but he doesn't have better things to do than to go around to a bunch of
already cast Continual Flame spells and reinforce them?

That makes a lot of sense...to you (and noone else).