Dangerous Waters : review at the Wargamer

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Hi,

Read it here :

http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/dangerous_waters/

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <1108993495.799153.99590@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...
> Hi,
>
> Read it here :
>
> http://www.wargamer.com/reviews/dangerous_waters/

A quote:

"Although the game engine appears very solid, it has crashed on my
system two or three times during the course of play for reasons I have
yet to identify."

I'm not sure I would characterize a program that had crashed "two or
three times" as "appearing very solid." I mean, what would the software
need to do to be described as "buggy shitware?" Physically burn out his
display?

And I'm still scratching my head over what this game is supposed to be.
Harpoon4? A sub sim? A flight simulator? I'm getting the impression
that the designers weren't entirely clear about what they were building.
When I hear a reviewer observe, "In many ways, Dangerous Waters is 11
simulators in one," I start to wonder how many games have managed to
cram even *two* divergent simulators in one package without disastrous
compromises and inappropriate abstractions.

And what do we make of:

"Crew stations are well portrayed, functional and believable. Most
consist of various screen displays, dials and buttons, while others,
such as a submarine=3Fs sail or the .50 caliber machine gun on the FFG,
allow players to look around and appreciate their surroundings."

Uh, you can man a machinegun? Even more disturbing, do you *need* to
man the machinegun, or suffer the same poor performance one got from the
"autocrew" functions in SUB COMMAND?

"Although the automated crew does a reasonable job at identifying
general contacts, I found at times that they are next to useless when it
comes to classifying most contacts. In these circumstances, the player
needs to intervene and use the platform=3Fs instruments to make a final
assessment."

A huge red flag flaps cheerfully atop my mental halyards when I read
this sort of thing




--
Giftzwerg
***
"I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
mean, *we*?'

It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
blah.

If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
would never have taken place."
- Jay Nordlinger
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Giftzwerg <giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1c83d4631d9e77e98a1b6@news-east.giganews.com:

> A huge red flag flaps cheerfully atop my mental halyards when I read
> this sort of thing

Well, you can't say it wasn't an informative review :) - the stuff
between the lines and the things blatantly unsaid are just as well a
part of a review.

I've downloaded the demo, now I'm waiting for an opening in my schedule
to actually play it - which will probably be after the release of COTA
as that gets priority #1 right now.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <nc7k115q1smfmvq41bqtu0ipfstla1j0dp@4ax.com>,
sbartman@visi.com says...

> The biggest problem I have with these games (Harpoon et al) is the
> tortured lengths designers must go to in order to make up scenarios.
> Pretty much what-if/never-happened WWIII-type things. Many/most
> military gamers prefer playing actual events and trying to best
> history.

Well, bad news for wargamers was certainly good news for the human race,
in that the most interesting scenarios - large-scale hot-war clashes
between Soviet bloc and NATO forces - never took place. This leaves
scenario designers needing a certain amount of poetic license or the
game wouldn't even be taking place.

HARPOON scenarios generally had some verisimilitude going for them.


--
Giftzwerg
***
"I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
mean, *we*?'

It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
blah.

If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
would never have taken place."
- Jay Nordlinger
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

Steve Bartman wrote:

> The game is fun. It didn't crash once in over three hours of play.

> Steve

The game locks up on me after about 10 minutes if I leave the little 3D
window open on the main map. XP Proffesional SP2 is really hard to
lockup so bad that you can't do anything but press the hard wired reset
button. Gotta be a video issue with Radeon cards I'd guess. Not the
first time Sonalysts had video issues. Somehow I think they treat Radeon
as an after thought which is weird since Radeon is basically the graphic
card market leader right now.

Other than that DW looks like Sub Command with the added ability to play
some surface and air platforms.

It'll be worth buying after it's been released for a month or two.

--
Werewolf

Peace is Good.
Freedom is BETTER!
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> And I'm still scratching my head over what this game is supposed to be.
> Harpoon4? A sub sim? A flight simulator?

Sonalyst started with a 688i sim, in 1997 (the one published by Jane's), and
built from there. "Fleet Command" added a full 3D modern naval battlefield,
"Sub Command" added two more subs (the Akula and the Seawolf) and now
"Dangerous Waters" brings the Kilo, the P-3 Orion, the Seahawk and the Perry
frigate. Seven platforms modeled over eight years (while expanding the core
engine instead of re-inventing the wheel every time) seems a good pacing to
me - exp. if you consider that Sonalyst's main job is to create
multi-million dollar sims for the Navy, so I think that some of their
experience translated here.

> And what do we make of:
>
> "Crew stations are well portrayed, functional and believable. Most
> consist of various screen displays, dials and buttons, while others,
> such as a submarine=3Fs sail or the .50 caliber machine gun on the FFG,
> allow players to look around and appreciate their surroundings."

I'm still waiting for the game, but I belive that stopping a terrorist
motorboat (or another player's ship) with your .50 is more fun than leaving
it to the AI 😱)

There is a good review of the game written by a former P-3 Orion officer
here:
http://www.biohazcentral.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1117&Itemid=25

Anyway, I think that one of DW strengths will be MP. Playing wolfpack
against human manned FFGs and helos beats playing vs. the AI hands down.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

In article <j0sSd.59567$2h5.23474@tornado.fastwebnet.it>,
reckall@hotmail.com says...

> > "Crew stations are well portrayed, functional and believable. Most
> > consist of various screen displays, dials and buttons, while others,
> > such as a submarine=3Fs sail or the .50 caliber machine gun on the FFG,
> > allow players to look around and appreciate their surroundings."
>
> I'm still waiting for the game, but I belive that stopping a terrorist
> motorboat (or another player's ship) with your .50 is more fun than leaving
> it to the AI 😱)

I have no trouble believing that, but my chief problem with SUB COMMAND
was always that I had to wear every friggin' hat on the boat to achieve
anything worthwhile. Thus talk of "manning machineguns" leads me to
believe that the player "commanding" a PERRY-class frigate is going to
be very busy, indeed.

--
Giftzwerg
***
"I was reading an op-ed piece by Fareed Zakaria in the Washington Post,
and he began by quoting Jon Stewart, the comedian, who said, 'We did it!
We had the election. And now we can say to Iraq, "Goodbye!"'

The words 'We did it!' brought me up short. I thought, 'What do you
mean, *we*?'

It will be just like the Cold War, I think. George W. Bush and his
allies will make progress in the Middle East, and then, with selective
amnesia, those who fought Bush & Co. tooth and nail will say, 'We,
we, we.' We liberalized Afghanistan, we liberalized Iraq, blah, blah,
blah.

If it had been up to Jon Stewart and his ilk, that election in Iraq
would never have taken place."
- Jay Nordlinger
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

> The game locks up on me after about 10 minutes if I leave the little 3D
> window open on the main map. XP Proffesional SP2 is really hard to
> lockup so bad that you can't do anything but press the hard wired reset
> button. Gotta be a video issue with Radeon cards I'd guess.

Have you tried the -atifix switch? On my rig in SC it solved the problems
with Radeon.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:20:07 -0600, Werewolf <nunya@no-way.net> wrote:

>Steve Bartman wrote:
>
>> The game is fun. It didn't crash once in over three hours of play.
>
>> Steve
>
>The game locks up on me after about 10 minutes if I leave the little 3D
>window open on the main map. XP Proffesional SP2 is really hard to
>lockup so bad that you can't do anything but press the hard wired reset
>button. Gotta be a video issue with Radeon cards I'd guess. Not the
>first time Sonalysts had video issues. Somehow I think they treat Radeon
>as an after thought which is weird since Radeon is basically the graphic
>card market leader right now.

As a point of comparison I have XP Home SP2 and an NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti
4600.

I recall video problems with 688i that were solved by turning off the
acceleration slider in Advanced Settings. I had no problems with Sub
Command video lock-ups on this machine or the previous P2 400 mhz with
an ATI card.

Steve
--
www.thepaxamsolution.com
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 06:36:15 -0500, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> I'm still waiting for the game, but I belive that stopping a terrorist
>> motorboat (or another player's ship) with your .50 is more fun than leaving
>> it to the AI 😱)
>
>I have no trouble believing that, but my chief problem with SUB COMMAND
>was always that I had to wear every friggin' hat on the boat to achieve
>anything worthwhile. Thus talk of "manning machineguns" leads me to
>believe that the player "commanding" a PERRY-class frigate is going to
>be very busy, indeed.

Perry is *by far* the most complex platform in the game. Kilo is
technically simpler than other subs, but it's deceptive, because it's
*tactically* lot more complex than nukes. P3 and especially MH-60 are
fairly simple to play, and are recommended for newbies. It's not hard
to wear "every hat" on those two platforms.

It's good that MH-60 is one of two drivables in the demo.
Whoever finds MH-60 too complex for his taste - well, DW is perhaps
not his cup of tea.

O.
 
Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:18:47 +0100, Oleg Mastruko <oleg@bug.hr> wrote:


> It's good that MH-60 is one of two drivables in the demo.
>Whoever finds MH-60 too complex for his taste - well, DW is perhaps
>not his cup of tea.

The -60 is a blast to drive. So used to subs and the inability to
"teleport" to a new location at 150 kts. Can really develop some quick
crossed-bearings solutions.

As to simple, I did manage to put my -60 into the drink last night, on
autopilot, when I ordered an altitude to 20 feet while going 150 kts.
Made a nice splash.

Steve
--
www.thepaxamsolution.com