Demogorgon & Yeenoghu

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I had a bit of an unusual experience while ascending a healer. Here's
what I think happened, I didn't write down details:

On the last Gehennom level w/ high priest and The Amulet, Demogorgon
appears suddenly (summoned by a high-level monster, I suppose). I was
wearing a ring of conflict. While he was teleported away, with telepathy
I noticed that he apparently killed the high priest. I went to look for
the amulet and it wasn't there, so I figured Demo took it. After that,
Yeenoghu appears, probably summoned by Demo. I really had no chance of
killing either as it was, I could only take a few hit points from Demo
and maybe 10-20 from Yeenoghu before they teleported away. In any case I
managed to make it to the stairs after one of them or both went
upstairs, and on the next level on the upstairs I finally slayed
Yeenoghu. He had the amulet and I saw no sign of Demo on that level or
ever since. Yeenoghu also left the amulet for me.

This is weird because I never noticed them hitting each other while they
were next to me. Could the ring of conflict have caused them to hit each
other at the upstairs while I was some 10-20 squares away beyond line of
sight, and if so, would Yeenoghu really have managed to slay Demo?
 
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I doubt Yeenoghu could kill Demogorgon. Demo could've summoned Yeenoghu
and allowed Y to take the Amulet. Then Y and D 'port and you go up
without the D. If you REALLY want to know, try going back down to the
Sanctum and blindfolding yourself. Of course, if he's really there, you
don't want to go back down.
 
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Ari Nieminen <artani.rem.ove@utu.rem.ove.fi> writes:
> I had a bit of an unusual experience while ascending a healer. Here's
> what I think happened, I didn't write down details:
>
> On the last Gehennom level w/ high priest and The Amulet, Demogorgon
> appears suddenly (summoned by a high-level monster, I suppose).

Or as a post-killing-Wizard random intervention.

> I was wearing a ring of conflict. While he was teleported away, with
> telepathy I noticed that he apparently killed the high priest. I
> went to look for the amulet and it wasn't there, so I figured Demo
> took it. After that, Yeenoghu appears, probably summoned by Demo. I
> really had no chance of killing either as it was, I could only take
> a few hit points from Demo and maybe 10-20 from Yeenoghu before they
> teleported away. In any case I managed to make it to the stairs
> after one of them or both went upstairs, and on the next level on
> the upstairs I finally slayed Yeenoghu. He had the amulet and I saw
> no sign of Demo on that level or ever since. Yeenoghu also left the
> amulet for me.
>
> This is weird because I never noticed them hitting each other while
> they were next to me. Could the ring of conflict have caused them to
> hit each other at the upstairs while I was some 10-20 squares away
> beyond line of sight, and if so, would Yeenoghu really have managed to
> slay Demo?

Both Yeenoghu and Demogorgon have the M3_WANTSAMUL flag, which mean
they'll attack anyone who has the Amulet, monster or player (though
they won't turn down attacks on the player should he be around). It's
by no means impossible that Yeenoghu would have won the duel, given
that he has a paralysis attack and most of Demogorgon's special
attacks (spells, disease) aren't usable in monster-monster combat;
and, indeed, in a quick wizmode deathmatch I just ran up, he got the
victory. In your case, he was probably hurt badly enough that he
retreated upstairs at your approach.

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "Nothing matters very much, and few things matter at all." :
: -- A.J. Balfour :
 
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Adam Borowski wrote:
[snip]
> reflection: in my mode, all it is good for is averting the risk of
wands
> of lightnings (rare!) destroying your rings (if the wand goes past
your
> AC, which is unlikely). In hell, you keep getting hit by fire and/or
> cold from sources that ignore reflection and ac, so you can't keep
> potions and scrolls in your main inventory anyway -- and except for
> early game, you _do_ have MR or you're dead so wands of death don't
> count. HP loss from wands? Who gives a damn about hp!

The reason I stick with reflection with any character is that
I usually don't like to see my armor disintegrated by a dragon breath.
Anyway, I've had a 500+ HP character taken down by wizard+friends, so
I do give a damn. Cursed BoH, or cursed shield + weapon is more than
enough for such an accident to happen.
 
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psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan O'Donnell) writes:

> Both Yeenoghu and Demogorgon have the M3_WANTSAMUL flag, which mean
> they'll attack anyone who has the Amulet, monster or player (though
> they won't turn down attacks on the player should he be around). It's
> by no means impossible that Yeenoghu would have won the duel, given
> that he has a paralysis attack and most of Demogorgon's special
> attacks (spells, disease) aren't usable in monster-monster combat;
> and, indeed, in a quick wizmode deathmatch I just ran up, he got the
> victory.

Incredible. Puny Yeenoghu beats Demogorgon. Seems like a
rock-paper-skissors situation. Well, Yeenoghu seems like
a good pet choice after all.. [would a tame Yeenoghu still
attack me for the amulet?]

Best,
Jakob
 
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Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>Incredible. Puny Yeenoghu beats Demogorgon. Seems like a
>rock-paper-skissors situation. Well, Yeenoghu seems like
>a good pet choice after all.. [would a tame Yeenoghu still
>attack me for the amulet?]

It is impossible to obtain a tame Yeenoghu in normal play; he is a unique
(implies cannot be produced by polymorph) covetous (implies cannot be made
tame) monster.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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james wrote:

> In article <fAB*vGvLq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps you are making some other false assumption.
>
> No, I'm working from experience with the Lich Dragon tango.
>
> Disintegration resistance does not protect your inventory!

It protects you inventory from disintegration blasts. It does not protect
your armour from being destroyed by a lich or golden naga. For this, you
need MR.

--
Benjamin Lewis

A small, but vocal, contingent even argues that tin is superior, but they
are held by most to be the lunatic fringe of Foil Deflector Beanie science.
 
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Jakob Creutzig wrote:
> Incredible. Puny Yeenoghu beats Demogorgon. Seems like a
> rock-paper-skissors situation.

It's just the same case as a vampire lord being tougher than an
arch-lich: if you drop the special properties, Demogorgon has nothing
to be afraid of.

It's just the player's perspective that is highly biased towards special
attacks.

It calls for a longer rant about playing style:
<rant>
* most experienced players go for level 14, 150hp, reflection, using
Elbereth, watching out for possible danger, cautious play and the
full-pants-if-you-see-a-big-scary-minotaur-mode. It's something that
requires actually thinking when playing.
* what I prefer is level 30, 600+hp, and the 5-archons-are-nothing-but
spam mindless mode. If you eat your wraiths and don't waste !oGL on
pets, you don't even need alchemy or prayer for the hp.
This explains why more than half of rgrn disagrees with me about
reflection: in my mode, all it is good for is averting the risk of wands
of lightnings (rare!) destroying your rings (if the wand goes past your
AC, which is unlikely). In hell, you keep getting hit by fire and/or
cold from sources that ignore reflection and ac, so you can't keep
potions and scrolls in your main inventory anyway -- and except for
early game, you _do_ have MR or you're dead so wands of death don't
count. HP loss from wands? Who gives a damn about hp!
It's also a strong argument against displacement: if you can ignore hp
loss, having special attacks 15 times more likely to affect you is a bad
thing.

If you compare the two modes, you can note that the first one promotes
clever techniques. Stoning grenades, etc, are good if you need to
dispose of monsters fast -- but if you can afford the whole two rounds
it takes to kill a demon lord with a good weapons combo, you don't need
to bother with thinking. In fact, some extreme cases like me just whack
them with Magicbane.
</rant>

And this leads to extreme results. If your character is beefy enough,
you ignore everything but special attacks. You stop caring about the
damage from minotaurs, archons or Yeenoghu -- but you still are afraid
of sickness from Demogorgon, level drain or having your source of MR stolen.

> Well, Yeenoghu seems like a good pet choice after all.. [would a tame
> Yeenoghu still attack me for the amulet?]

He's not pettable. Nothing that has any of the M3_WANTSxxx flags is.

1KB
 
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Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> writes:

> This explains why more than half of rgrn disagrees with me about
> reflection: in my mode, all it is good for is averting the risk of wands
> of lightnings (rare!) destroying your rings (if the wand goes past your
> AC, which is unlikely).

Once you're *-resistant and powerful enough, you can ignore
reflection. Survival issues are important almost exclusively
*before* you hit the castle and become a killing machine.

> > Well, Yeenoghu seems like a good pet choice after all.. [would a tame
> > Yeenoghu still attack me for the amulet?]
>
> He's not pettable. Nothing that has any of the M3_WANTSxxx flags is.

I should have guessed as much.

Best,
Jakob
 

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In article <apwtre7kvq.fsf@fb04349.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de>,
Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:

>Once you're *-resistant and powerful enough, you can ignore
>reflection.

If your MR comes from a cloak (or any other item) and you ignore reflection,
you won't have MR (or survival) for very long.
 
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Quoting james <fishbowl@conservatory.com>:
>Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>>Once you're *-resistant and powerful enough, you can ignore
>>reflection.
>If your MR comes from a cloak (or any other item) and you ignore reflection,
>you won't have MR (or survival) for very long.

I suspect you believe that even disintegration-resistant characters can
have armour disintegrated. This is not the case.

Perhaps you are making some other false assumption.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Mania, April.
 
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On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Michal Brzozowski wrote:
> The reason I stick with reflection with any character is that
> I usually don't like to see my armor disintegrated by a dragon breath.
You do eat your first blackie, don't you?

> Anyway, I've had a 500+ HP character taken down by wizard+friends, so
> I do give a damn. Cursed BoH, or cursed shield + weapon is more than
> enough for such an accident to happen.
That's why I said "pure hp loss". What killed you was the wizard's
special attack (cursing), not his hand-to-hand attacks.

KiloByte, killed by pure hp loss
--
,-=========================================-. Rule #35: That which
| 1KB | does not kill you has
`-------------------------------------------' made a tactical error.
- The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
 
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Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Michal Brzozowski wrote:
>
>> The reason I stick with reflection with any character is that
>> I usually don't like to see my armor disintegrated by a dragon breath.
>
> You do eat your first blackie, don't you?
>

Your armor can eat dragons? When did this happen?

--
____ (__)
/ \ (oo) -Shadow
|Moo. > \/
\____/
 

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In article <fAB*vGvLq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Perhaps you are making some other false assumption.

No, I'm working from experience with the Lich Dragon tango.

Disintegration resistance does not protect your inventory!
 
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On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, james wrote:

> In article <fAB*vGvLq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps you are making some other false assumption.
>
> No, I'm working from experience with the Lich Dragon tango.
> Disintegration resistance does not protect your inventory!

Disint resistance doesn't protect against liches crumbling your armour to
dust, yeah. You need _magic_ resist for this.

--
,-=========================================-. Rule #35: That which
| 1KB | does not kill you has
`-------------------------------------------' made a tactical error.
- The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
 
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On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Shadow wrote:
> Adam Borowski wrote:
>> [disint resistance]
>> You do eat your first blackie, don't you?
> Your armor can eat dragons? When did this happen?

I see you have never heard of vorpal bunny slippers...


,-=========================================-. Rule #35: That which
| 1KB | does not kill you has
`-------------------------------------------' made a tactical error.
- The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
 
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fishbowl@conservatory.com (james) writes:


[Quoting inserted]
> >>> Once you're *-resistant and powerful enough, you can ignore
> >>> reflection.
+-
|> >> If your MR comes from a cloak (or any other item) and you ignore
|> >> reflection, you won't have MR (or survival) for very long.
+-
> In article <fAB*vGvLq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> >I suspect you believe that even disintegration-resistant characters can
> >have armour disintegrated. This is not the case.

> >Perhaps you are making some other false assumption.
>
> No, I'm working from experience with the Lich Dragon tango.
>
> Disintegration resistance does not protect your inventory!

Nevertheless, your above (marked) statement is completely
wrong. If you have MR and DR, neither a disint nor a
destroy-armor-attack can destroy any of your armor.
It is convenient to have reflection, mainly due to
the lightning business, but not for disint/destroy-armor
reasons.

Best,
Jakob
 
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Quoting james <fishbowl@conservatory.com>:
>David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>Quoting james <fishbowl@conservatory.com>:
>>>If your MR comes from a cloak (or any other item) and you ignore reflection,
>>>you won't have MR (or survival) for very long.
>>Perhaps you are making some other false assumption.
>No, I'm working from experience with the Lich Dragon tango.

Your "experience" cannot happen in game.

>Disintegration resistance does not protect your inventory!

It does from disintegration beams from the dragon. MR protects you from
the lich destroying armour. You can sit there and laugh at that tango all
day.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Aponoia, April.
 
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james wrote:

> In article <Pine.LNX.4.62.0504072309480.21914@angband.pl>,
> Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> wrote:
>
>> Disint resistance doesn't protect against liches crumbling your armour
>> to dust, yeah. You need _magic_ resist for this.
>
> Exactly my point. I think someone believes that disintegration
> resistance with magic resistance means you can get away without
> reflection, and that's a dangerous belief.

How is that exactly your point? As Adam says, with disintegration
resistance and magic resistance your armor is safe from black dragons and
liches, whether or not you have reflection.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Evelyn the dog, having undergone further modification, pondered the
significance of short-person behavior in pedal-depressed panchromatic
resonance and other highly ambient domains... "Arf", she said.
 
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Jakob Creutzig wrote:

> It is convenient to have reflection, mainly due to
> the lightning business, but not for disint/destroy-armor
> reasons.

It is not just *convenient*. It is quite often that my PC has teleport
control only from a ring. Tengu are not that frequent and they don't
give TC at 100%. If that ring is destroyed by a wand of lightning, your
game may be destroyed as well.
 
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Quoting KASSNER Klaus <Klaus.Kassner@physik.uni-magdeburg.de>:
>Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>>It is convenient to have reflection, mainly due to
>>the lightning business, but not for disint/destroy-armor
>>reasons.
>It is not just *convenient*. It is quite often that my PC has teleport
>control only from a ring. Tengu are not that frequent and they don't
>give TC at 100%. If that ring is destroyed by a wand of lightning, your
>game may be destroyed as well.

Huh? I can see you might get into a situation where you're messed up
without TC, but obviously a no-reflection player wouldn't do that without
reserve sources of TC, if prudent.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Aponoia, April.
 
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David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting KASSNER Klaus <Klaus.Kassner@physik.uni-magdeburg.de>:
>
>>Jakob Creutzig wrote:
>>
>>>It is convenient to have reflection, mainly due to
>>>the lightning business, but not for disint/destroy-armor
>>>reasons.
>>
>>It is not just *convenient*. It is quite often that my PC has teleport
>>control only from a ring. Tengu are not that frequent and they don't
>>give TC at 100%. If that ring is destroyed by a wand of lightning, your
>>game may be destroyed as well.

> Huh? I can see you might get into a situation where you're messed up
> without TC, but obviously a no-reflection player wouldn't do that without
> reserve sources of TC, if prudent.

What reserve sources? I have had TC in *all* my games in which I
ascended, but I think that in about half of them I never got another
source of TC than the single ring of TC that I had found or wished for.
Of course, you can keep a reserve wish just for that occasion where
you are blasted by a wand of lightning and your ring disintegrates
(hopefully you've kept your wand of wishing in a bag...). But that is
precisely a situation where I would say that reflection is a bit more
than just *convenient*. It can save you from having to use up a wish
that might be your life insurance in other ways, to remedy a stupid
accident.

I am not talking about no-reflection conduct, by the way. Conducts are
a different matter, and they are not an argument against regarding
reflection essential in a regular game. (It is no longer essential once
you are on the Astral Plane, and of course you can throw away your ring
of TC as soon as you enter Earth. In slashem you might even do so as
soon as you have the Amulet, although I would not consider that a clever
strategy. But you can free the ring slot.)

--
Klaus Kassner
 

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In article <Pine.LNX.4.62.0504072309480.21914@angband.pl>,
Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> wrote:

>Disint resistance doesn't protect against liches crumbling your armour to
>dust, yeah. You need _magic_ resist for this.

Exactly my point. I think someone believes that disintegration
resistance with magic resistance means you can get away without
reflection, and that's a dangerous belief.
 
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David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> Quoting KASSNER Klaus <Klaus.Kassner@physik.uni-magdeburg.de>:
> >Jakob Creutzig wrote:
> >>It is convenient to have reflection, mainly due to
> >>the lightning business, but not for disint/destroy-armor
> >>reasons.
> >It is not just *convenient*. It is quite often that my PC has teleport
> >control only from a ring. Tengu are not that frequent and they don't
> >give TC at 100%. If that ring is destroyed by a wand of lightning, your
> >game may be destroyed as well.
>
> Huh? I can see you might get into a situation where you're messed up
> without TC,

TC is extremely useful for shortening your journey back
to lvl 1, thus diminishing the risk of a Rodney-related
YAA/SD. However, before going for the amulet, I'm
always resourceful enough to get tengi-TC.

Best,
Jakob
 
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Klaus Kassner <Klaus.Kassner@physik.uni-magdeburg.de> wrote:
>What reserve sources? I have had TC in *all* my games in which I
>ascended, but I think that in about half of them I never got another
>source of TC than the single ring of TC that I had found or wished for.

Unless you are relying on black dragons and 'trice flesh to kill Rodney
every time, it is unlikely that you never found another perfectly
reliable source of teleport control in a successful game. You just have
to be willing to take the Luck hit if you're human.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
Good riddance to the Pope.