Demorgorgon question

James

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I'm trying a genoless-polyself-less extinctionist game (and may
I recommend against Arch-Lich summoning as a strategy? Don't ask,
take my word for it :)

Anyway, I was hoping to fight Demogorgon this game, but Asmodeus,
Yeenoghu, Juiblex and Orcus all died from things they summoned.
I never laid a finger on 'em.

So unless Rodney himself can summon Demogorgon, I'm out of luck, right?
And it looks like he *can't* despite an ambiguous thing in the
Demogorgon FAQ that suggests he can.

Either Rodney can summon Demogorgon directly, or he has to summon
a demon to do it for him. Who knows the story? Have you actually
seen Rodney gate in Demogorgon after Orcus and Yeeno and company are all
dead? Can any of these demons return after being disintegrated or
otherwise destroyed?

Also, does a game count as extinctionist if you don't meet Demogorgon?


Thanks!

Nesta, elven ranger.
 
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<fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote:
>So unless Rodney himself can summon Demogorgon, I'm out of luck, right?
>And it looks like he *can't* despite an ambiguous thing in the
>Demogorgon FAQ that suggests he can.

I've never actually seen him do it that I can remember, but Google Groups
just kindly provided me with a post from Wes Irby about seeing a master
lich summon Demogorgon, and my own experience of examining the source
code says that he is capable of doing so, so he certainly can.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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In article <DBO3e.284023$FM3.118452@fed1read02>, james wrote:

> Either Rodney can summon Demogorgon directly, or he has to summon
> a demon to do it for him. Who knows the story? Have you actually

I'm really not sure who summoned Demogorgon, but once in the Molochs
sanctum a valk of mine met two Rodneys, the High Priest and Demo. This was
on one of the two NAO tournament ascensions. There might have been
nalfeshnees or somesuch, but don't really remember.


--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
 

James

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In article <Xjo*Km-Kq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>I've never actually seen him do it that I can remember, but Google Groups
>just kindly provided me with a post from Wes Irby about seeing a master
>lich summon Demogorgon, and my own experience of examining the source
>code says that he is capable of doing so, so he certainly can.

Ok, I'll keep plugging along.

Extinction takes a while, but I'll be ready to summon Arch-Liches on the
VS level pretty soon. Arch-Lich > Master-Lich, right?

Next puzzlement: How do you generate sea life to extinction? Create
monster on the plane of water? Any less drastic approaches?
 
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james wrote:
> I'm trying a genoless-polyself-less extinctionist game (and may
> I recommend against Arch-Lich summoning as a strategy? Don't ask,
> take my word for it :)
>
> Anyway, I was hoping to fight Demogorgon this game, but Asmodeus,
> Yeenoghu, Juiblex and Orcus all died from things they summoned.
> I never laid a finger on 'em.
>

I don't see wishless mentioned, so how about wishing for a statue of
Demogorgon, and then casting stone to flesh on it? (It worked when I
just started a Healer with nethack -D to start with a wand of wishing.)

-Harold Hill
 
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fishbowl@conservatory.com (james) writes:

> I'm trying a genoless-polyself-less extinctionist game (and may
> I recommend against Arch-Lich summoning as a strategy? Don't ask,
> take my word for it :)
>
> Anyway, I was hoping to fight Demogorgon this game, but Asmodeus,
> Yeenoghu, Juiblex and Orcus all died from things they summoned.
> I never laid a finger on 'em.
>
> So unless Rodney himself can summon Demogorgon, I'm out of luck, right?

I'm by no means a specialist for demon--summoning, and
am too lazy to check with the source. Hence I rely on
the spoiler

http://www.nethack.de/spoiler/demon_summoning.txt

in my answer. However, this itself seems contradictory
about this issue. First it is stated that

| Major demons may be created in three ways: by random
| generation, which includes summoning spells and monsters
| popping into the level,

and in the next paragraph

| Random generation will only generate Demons.

(as opposed to Demon lords/princes).

> And it looks like he *can't* despite an ambiguous thing in the
> Demogorgon FAQ that suggests he can.

The above-mentioned spoiler suggests that while in Gehennom,
Rodney can, instead of pet-summoning, perform minion--summoning
(1/10 chance) like a chaotic demon prince. This would, in turn,
result in summoning a demon prince in 5% of the cases. So I'd
say that you would have to wait 200 Rodney-summonings on average
to meet Demogorgon, if the spoiler was written and interpreted
correctly. Since he's not summoning every turn, this can be
quite a waiting time.

Major Demons may also be summoned as a result of summon
nasties cast by a high-level caster, but I think that's
different from the above minion--summoning.

Best,
Jakob
 
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Quoting james <fishbowl@conservatory.com>:
>So unless Rodney himself can summon Demogorgon, I'm out of luck, right?
>And it looks like he *can't* despite an ambiguous thing in the
>Demogorgon FAQ that suggests he can.

He did it to me in the tournament, so I would say he can.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Potmos, April.
 
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fishbowl@conservatory.com (james) writes:

> (and may I recommend against Arch-Lich summoning as a strategy?
> Don't ask, take my word for it :)

Summon some cockatrices first (preferably on another level).
 
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hhill@thinksystem.net wrote:

>
> james wrote:
>> I'm trying a genoless-polyself-less extinctionist game (and may
>> I recommend against Arch-Lich summoning as a strategy? Don't ask,
>> take my word for it :)
>>
>> Anyway, I was hoping to fight Demogorgon this game, but Asmodeus,
>> Yeenoghu, Juiblex and Orcus all died from things they summoned.
>> I never laid a finger on 'em.
>>
>
> I don't see wishless mentioned, so how about wishing for a statue of
> Demogorgon, and then casting stone to flesh on it? (It worked when I
> just started a Healer with nethack -D to start with a wand of
> wishing.)
>

Because this doesn't work in a normal game.

Jorge
 
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jorge estrada wrote:
> hhill@thinksystem.net wrote:

>> I don't see wishless mentioned, so how about wishing for a statue of
>> Demogorgon, and then casting stone to flesh on it? (It worked when I
>> just started a Healer with nethack -D to start with a wand of
>> wishing.)

> Because this doesn't work in a normal game.

But he wasn't testing in wizard mode. He was playing in discovery mode,
which is in all aspects the same as a normal game, except for the wand
of wishing you start with and the fact that you can decline to die.

More specifically, discovery mode does *not* give unlimited wishing
possibilities.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:

> jorge estrada wrote:
>> hhill@thinksystem.net wrote:
>
>>> I don'tpreviousshless mentioned, so how about wishing for a statue
>>> of Demogorgon, and then casting stone to flesh on it? (It worked
>>> when I just started a Healer with nethack -D to start with a wand
>>> of wishing.)
>
>> Because this doesn't work in a normal game.
>
> But he wasn't testing in wizard mode. He was playing in discovery
> mode, which is in all aspects the same as a normal game, except for
> the wand of wishing you start with and the fact that you can decline
> to die.
>
> More specifically, discovery mode does *not* give unlimited wishing
> possibilities.
>

Well, all i know is that i tried this in a real game and it did not
work. It might have been a previous version of nethack but i did try
it because i wanted to kill demogorgon for some reason or other.

Jorge
 
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hhill@thinksystem.net writes:

> I don't see wishless mentioned, so how about wishing for a statue of
> Demogorgon, and then casting stone to flesh on it? (It worked when I
> just started a Healer with nethack -D to start with a wand of wishing.)

If I have understood statues of unique monsters (that have not been
created by hitting the real thing with a c corpse) correctly, they are
actually statues of doppelgangers that only takes the shape of the
unique monster. So this method gives you a nasty monster that can kill
you in a few turns, but Demogorgon will not show up on the list of
killed monsters.

But I have been confused about this before, so I might be wrong.

-- Johan
 
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Johan Wallen wrote:
> hhill@thinksystem.net writes:
>
> > I don't see wishless mentioned, so how about wishing for a statue
of
> > Demogorgon, and then casting stone to flesh on it? (It worked when
I
> > just started a Healer with nethack -D to start with a wand of
wishing.)
>
> If I have understood statues of unique monsters (that have not been
> created by hitting the real thing with a c corpse) correctly, they
are
> actually statues of doppelgangers that only takes the shape of the
> unique monster. So this method gives you a nasty monster that can
kill
> you in a few turns, but Demogorgon will not show up on the list of
> killed monsters.
>

Well, OK. I repeated the test and also wished for a ring of protection
from shape changers. Putting it on after I stone-to-fleshed the statue
did change it from Demogorgon to a doppelganger. I guess that method
doesn't work (unless your goal is just to fight something that is a
difficult as the big D).


--
-Harold Hill
 

Eric

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On 4 April 2005, james wrote:
> Next puzzlement: How do you generate sea life to extinction? Create
> monster on the plane of water? Any less drastic approaches?

Try pudding farming on a level with a polymorph trap.
Wood chucks come up that way, too, but I haven't seen the Mail Daemon or
any other unique monsters.

- Eric
 
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>Eric wrote:
>>On 4 April 2005, james wrote:

>> Next puzzlement: How do you generate sea life to extinction?
Create
>> monster on the plane of water? Any less drastic approaches?

>Try pudding farming on a level with a polymorph trap.

IIRC reverse genociding also works and it might be less painful.
 
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Jakob Creutzig <creutzig@mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de> writes:
> I'm by no means a specialist for demon--summoning, and
> am too lazy to check with the source. Hence I rely on
> the spoiler
>
> http://www.nethack.de/spoiler/demon_summoning.txt

This spoiler seems mostly correct, but confused on some details (and,
as you note, partly self-contradictory). The Demogorgon FAQ _is_
correct, but (because it concentrates, naturally enough, on
Demogorgon), only concerns itself with chaotic demon prince summoning,
leaving other aspects sketched over.

> The above-mentioned spoiler suggests that while in Gehennom,
> Rodney can, instead of pet-summoning, perform minion--summoning
> (1/10 chance) like a chaotic demon prince.
>
> Major Demons may also be summoned as a result of summon
> nasties cast by a high-level caster, but I think that's
> different from the above minion--summoning.

There are two quite distinct effects (possibly three) being confused
here.

a) Most demons can, as an adjunct to their attack, gate in other
demons. These demons will always be co-aligned with the attacker,
and at most of one rank (prince/lord/common) higher.

b) The monster-cast 'summon nasties' spell. In Gehennom only, this has
a 1/10 chance of summoning demons; these can (as of 3.4.0, when a
bug was fixed) be of either alignment regardless of the alignment
of the caster, and have the same prince/lord/common distribution as
a demon prince's gating effect as above. In the case of the Wizard,
he accompanies this with a cry of "Destroy the thief, my pets!",
but it's still the same spell.

c) The periodic "suddenly surrounded with nasties" effect after having
killed the Wizard. This is effectively b) without an actual caster,
and can (in Gehennom) result in demons in the same manner; it
doesn't have an associated message, though.

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "Nothing matters very much, and few things matter at all." :
: -- A.J. Balfour :
 

Eric

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On 5 April 2005, Jacobs wrote:
>>Eric wrote:
>>>On 4 April 2005, james wrote:
>
>>> Next puzzlement: How do you generate sea life to extinction?
> Create
>>> monster on the plane of water? Any less drastic approaches?
>
>>Try pudding farming on a level with a polymorph trap.
>
> IIRC reverse genociding also works and it might be less painful.

I'm wrong; the polymorph trap will produce sea life, but not to
extinction. It looks like reverse genocide is the best way; create
monster and random generation on a water level probably should produce
sea life, but never does; a fix is likely to be messy.

- Eric