Denoisers, do they work?

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My main interest is capturing video from a PAL VCR or live
TV reception and burning some of it to DVD.

Many of my tapes (beta) are 10 years and older and look barely
acceptable when played on TV.

Put them through digitising and encoding and the final output
from DVD is much worse.

In theory it makes sense to blunt some of the blemishes with
a denoiser before encoding, as that means shorter files and less
digitally emphasized grain.

But how well do denoisers work? How hard is it to find proper
settings?

Has anybody used the Alparysoft denoiser?

What about the 'plugins' for VirtualDub?

If any of you have used denoisers with good or indifferent
results perhaps you could share your experience with the group
or via email to me directly?

Any response greatly appreciated
Max

--

maxh@pipeline.com.au
 
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Dietmar Haltermann wrote:
> What about the 'plugins' for VirtualDub?
>
> If any of you have used denoisers with good or indifferent
> results perhaps you could share your experience with the group
> or via email to me directly?

I think noise reduction filters work great. They can often be extremely
CPU intensive, but the end result is well worth it.

You can grab the VirtualDub filters that I use to clean up analog
broadcast television here:
http://mythhelper.sourceforge.net

If you get the source zip for mythhelper, you can use the VirtualDub
settings files. In particular, DVD.vcf
Depending on the quality of your source, you could play with the noise
reduction settings to make them more aggressive.


-WD
 
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Dietmar Haltermann <maxh@pipeline.com.au> wrote:

>My main interest is capturing video from a PAL VCR or live
>TV reception and burning some of it to DVD.
>
>Many of my tapes (beta) are 10 years and older and look barely
>acceptable when played on TV.
>
>Put them through digitising and encoding and the final output
>from DVD is much worse.

I wouldn't encode them at any higher than half-D1 resolution (352x576
for PAL, I think). That usually looks as good or better than full D1
when encoding from a videotape source - especially when the source is
of less than perfect quality.

>In theory it makes sense to blunt some of the blemishes with
>a denoiser before encoding, as that means shorter files and less
>digitally emphasized grain.
>
>But how well do denoisers work? How hard is it to find proper
>settings?
>
>Has anybody used the Alparysoft denoiser?
>
>What about the 'plugins' for VirtualDub?
>
>If any of you have used denoisers with good or indifferent
>results perhaps you could share your experience with the group
>or via email to me directly?

The noise reduction tool in the TMPGEnc encoder is easy to use, and it
can produce very good results. It operates during the process of MPEG
encoding. It's pretty easy to use, and you can see a still frame
preview of the result with your current settings. However, it can be
exceedingly slow.
 
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Will Dormann wrote:
>
> Dietmar Haltermann wrote:
> > What about the 'plugins' for VirtualDub?
> >
> > If any of you have used denoisers with good or indifferent
> > results perhaps you could share your experience with the group
> > or via email to me directly?
>
> I think noise reduction filters work great. They can often be extremely
> CPU intensive, but the end result is well worth it.
>
> You can grab the VirtualDub filters that I use to clean up analog
> broadcast television here:
> http://mythhelper.sourceforge.net
>
> If you get the source zip for mythhelper, you can use the VirtualDub
> settings files. In particular, DVD.vcf
> Depending on the quality of your source, you could play with the noise
> reduction settings to make them more aggressive.

Small comment. Temporal filters (denoisers, ivtc, etc.) don't work
when using VDub's framesever (see www.virtualdub.org).

Wilbert
 
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Wilbert Dijkhof wrote:

>
> Small comment. Temporal filters (denoisers, ivtc, etc.) don't work
> when using VDub's framesever (see www.virtualdub.org).

Uh-oh. Better not tell me that, because I've been doing it for nearly
a year now! (Using temporal filters in VirtualDub and frameserving to
other programs)


-WD
 
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Will Dormann wrote:
>
> Wilbert Dijkhof wrote:
>
> >
> > Small comment. Temporal filters (denoisers, ivtc, etc.) don't work
> > when using VDub's framesever (see www.virtualdub.org).
>
> Uh-oh. Better not tell me that, because I've been doing it for nearly
> a year now! (Using temporal filters in VirtualDub and frameserving to
> other programs)

Sorry about that :(

http://www.virtualdub.org/docs_frameserver

"Which options do not work during frameserving?

The following options will work:

(...)

The following options will not:

* Inverse telecine (IVTC/3:2 pulldown removal).
* Audio conversion.
* Audio interleaving -- this is handled by the client app.
* Audio and video compression.
* Any filter that shows a lag value in its description, particularly the
"temporal smoother.""

Wilbert
 
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In article <QsLDc.167296$DG4.20225@fe2.columbus.rr.com>, Will Dormann
<URL:mailto:wdormann@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> Dietmar Haltermann wrote:
> > What about the 'plugins' for VirtualDub?
> >
> > If any of you have used denoisers with good or indifferent
> > results perhaps you could share your experience with the group
> > or via email to me directly?
>
> I think noise reduction filters work great. They can often be extremely
> CPU intensive, but the end result is well worth it.
>
> You can grab the VirtualDub filters that I use to clean up analog
> broadcast television here:
> http://mythhelper.sourceforge.net
>
> If you get the source zip for mythhelper, you can use the VirtualDub
> settings files. In particular, DVD.vcf
> Depending on the quality of your source, you could play with the noise
> reduction settings to make them more aggressive.
>


Thanks Will, I had a look at mythhelper, looked all very confusing to me.
Especially, as the accompanying text sounded, as if it were very simple.
Also I have never been able to get VirtualDub to work. Complains about
not finding something.
I use Win 2K Pro, Canopus ADVC-100 to Firewire card and Ulead VS8. I can
capture AVI and MPEG-1 / MPEG-2 files and get good DVD results with good
TV or VHS input. I have some older tapes though that end up looking
rather ordinary and thought there may be stand-alone filtering of the AVI
files before encoding to DVD.

Max

maxh@pipeline.com.au
 
G

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If you have access to Premiere 6
or 6.5, try the Vixen plugin.
It fixes lots of video problems.

They say it plugs into Ulead Media
Studio, as well.

http://www.xentrik.demon.co.uk

Try a "30" setting on the noise
control, and a "30" setting on the sharp
control, with "2" for Mask and "30" for
offset (narrows the effects, in
combination with the Mask).

The noise reduction is recursive
and motion adaptive. The side
effects are sometimes noticable,
but end results are better than
tape noise.

Other controls are similar to
video studio production controls
(vectorscope, etc.).

Good luck,
George
 
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Dietmar Haltermann wrote:

>
> Thanks Will, I had a look at mythhelper, looked all very confusing to me.
> Especially, as the accompanying text sounded, as if it were very simple.
> Also I have never been able to get VirtualDub to work. Complains about
> not finding something.

Don't capture with VirtualDub. Just edit and/or filter.
Open your captured video with VirtualDub.
Open the DVD.vcf preset file. (This is assuming you've downloaded and
installed the two filters linked from the mythhelper website)
Frameserve to your favorite application if you like. (You may need the
combination of ReadAVS and VFAPIConverter, depending on the app you're
frameserving to)

If you don't want to frameserve (you have gobs of extra disk space
and/or you want the filtered video to be very responsive for the editing
process), then you can just have VirtualDub save as an AVI and then work
with that as you like.

If you're confused about how VirtualDub and/or frameserving works, check
this:
http://www.videohelp.com/virtualdubframeserve.htm


-WD
 
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Wilbert Dijkhof wrote:

>
> Will Dormann wrote:
>
>>
>>Uh-oh. Better not tell me that, because I've been doing it for nearly
>>a year now! (Using temporal filters in VirtualDub and frameserving to
>>other programs)
>
>
> Sorry about that :(
>
> http://www.virtualdub.org/docs_frameserver
>
> "Which options do not work during frameserving?
> * Any filter that shows a lag value in its description, particularly the
> "temporal smoother.""

I cannot vouch for this "temporal smoother" filter, but I can say that
the temporal cleaner filter that I use works just fine with
frameserving. I use the combination of Smart Smoother HQ and Temporal
Cleaner, so that both 2D and temporal filtering occurs.


-WD
 
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Will Dormann wrote:
>
> Wilbert Dijkhof wrote:
>
> >
> > Will Dormann wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Uh-oh. Better not tell me that, because I've been doing it for nearly
> >>a year now! (Using temporal filters in VirtualDub and frameserving to
> >>other programs)
> >
> >
> > Sorry about that :(
> >
> > http://www.virtualdub.org/docs_frameserver
> >
> > "Which options do not work during frameserving?
> > * Any filter that shows a lag value in its description, particularly the
> > "temporal smoother.""
>
> I cannot vouch for this "temporal smoother" filter, but I can say that
> the temporal cleaner filter that I use works just fine with
> frameserving. I use the combination of Smart Smoother HQ and Temporal
> Cleaner, so that both 2D and temporal filtering occurs.

I assume the author of VDub knows it better than you do. But if you
get acceptable quality ...

Did you compare for this difference between with and without this
temporal cleaner?

Wilbert
 
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"Wilbert Dijkhof" <w.j.dijkhof@tue.nl> wrote in message news:40E149F6.518B8D2A@tue.nl...
> I assume the author of VDub knows it better than you do. But if you
> get acceptable quality ...
>
> Did you compare for this difference between with and without this
> temporal cleaner?

The caveat applies only when using VirtualDub's built-in functionality
for accessing the previous frame(s). If the filter does it internally using
it's own storage, things are OK.

Don
 
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Wilbert Dijkhof wrote:

>
> Will Dormann wrote:
>
>>
>>I cannot vouch for this "temporal smoother" filter, but I can say that
>>the temporal cleaner filter that I use works just fine with
>>frameserving. I use the combination of Smart Smoother HQ and Temporal
>>Cleaner, so that both 2D and temporal filtering occurs.
>
>
> I assume the author of VDub knows it better than you do. But if you
> get acceptable quality ...
>
> Did you compare for this difference between with and without this
> temporal cleaner?


Of course. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother with it. :)
But don't take my word for it:
http://dormcam.mine.nu:8080/tc/


-WD
 
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Donald Graft wrote:
>
> "Wilbert Dijkhof" <w.j.dijkhof@tue.nl> wrote in message news:40E149F6.518B8D2A@tue.nl...
> > I assume the author of VDub knows it better than you do. But if you
> > get acceptable quality ...
> >
> > Did you compare for this difference between with and without this
> > temporal cleaner?
>
> The caveat applies only when using VirtualDub's built-in functionality
> for accessing the previous frame(s). If the filter does it internally using
> it's own storage, things are OK.

Ha, ok. I guess looking at the source is the only way to know which
situation you are dealing with?

Wilbert
 
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"Wilbert Dijkhof" <w.j.dijkhof@tue.nl> wrote in message news:40E28AC9.E1303DE0@tue.nl...
>
>
> Donald Graft wrote:
> >
> > "Wilbert Dijkhof" <w.j.dijkhof@tue.nl> wrote in message news:40E149F6.518B8D2A@tue.nl...
> > > I assume the author of VDub knows it better than you do. But if you
> > > get acceptable quality ...
> > >
> > > Did you compare for this difference between with and without this
> > > temporal cleaner?
> >
> > The caveat applies only when using VirtualDub's built-in functionality
> > for accessing the previous frame(s). If the filter does it internally using
> > it's own storage, things are OK.
>
> Ha, ok. I guess looking at the source is the only way to know which
> situation you are dealing with?

That's definitive, yes, but difficult for the average user.

Another way is to try it with high settings and see if it functions properly.

Don
 
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In article <YESDc.17149$bs4.11600@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>,
<URL:mailto:DeepOne@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Dietmar Haltermann <maxh@pipeline.com.au> wrote:
>
> >My main interest is capturing video from a PAL VCR or live
> >TV reception and burning some of it to DVD.
> >
> >Many of my tapes (beta) are 10 years and older and look barely
> >acceptable when played on TV.
> >
> >Put them through digitising and encoding and the final output
> >from DVD is much worse.
>
> I wouldn't encode them at any higher than half-D1 resolution (352x576
> for PAL, I think). That usually looks as good or better than full D1
> when encoding from a videotape source - especially when the source is
> of less than perfect quality.
>
> >In theory it makes sense to blunt some of the blemishes with
> >a denoiser before encoding, as that means shorter files and less
> >digitally emphasized grain.
> >
> >But how well do denoisers work? How hard is it to find proper
> >settings?
> >
> >Has anybody used the Alparysoft denoiser?
> >
> >What about the 'plugins' for VirtualDub?
> >
> >If any of you have used denoisers with good or indifferent
> >results perhaps you could share your experience with the group
> >or via email to me directly?
>
> The noise reduction tool in the TMPGEnc encoder is easy to use, and it
> can produce very good results. It operates during the process of MPEG
> encoding. It's pretty easy to use, and you can see a still frame
> preview of the result with your current settings. However, it can be
> exceedingly slow.
>
>

But I seem to be cursed about both VirtualDub and TMPGEnc, none were
ever able to accept DV files as captured via firewire. These were
captured with ULEAD Video Studio-7, also trial version VS-8.
I always get an error messageregarding the file type.
What am I doing wrong?


Max

--

Max Haltermann, Geelong VIC
maxh@pipeline.com.au
 
G

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Dietmar Haltermann <maxh@pipeline.com.au> wrote:

>But I seem to be cursed about both VirtualDub and TMPGEnc, none were
>ever able to accept DV files as captured via firewire. These were
>captured with ULEAD Video Studio-7, also trial version VS-8.
>I always get an error messageregarding the file type.
>What am I doing wrong?

Are you getting that message as soon as you load the file?

You said you have an ADVC-100; that's what I use. I have WinXP
instead of Win2K, and I capture in DV format with Ulead DVD Movie
Factory 2. TMPGEnc version 2.521.58.169 has no problem handling these
captured files.

I think you can download a Canopus DV AVI codec from their website;
maybe that would help.

Or you could try changing the priorities on the VFAPI plug-in tab in
TMPGEnc under Option / Environmental Setting. I've read about people
solving similar problems by moving the DirectShow Multimedia File
Reader to the top of the list there.
 
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On Sat, 03 Jul 2004 06:38:45 GMT, DeepOne@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>Or you could try changing the priorities on the VFAPI plug-in tab in
>TMPGEnc under Option / Environmental Setting. I've read about people
>solving similar problems by moving the DirectShow Multimedia File
>Reader to the top of the list there.

That should work also.
TMPGEnc will then use the Microsoft DV codec (decoder) if no other DV
codec is installed.
 
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In article <QsLDc.167296$DG4.20225@fe2.columbus.rr.com>, Will Dormann
<URL:mailto:wdormann@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> Dietmar Haltermann wrote:
> > What about the 'plugins' for VirtualDub?
> >
> > If any of you have used denoisers with good or indifferent
> > results perhaps you could share your experience with the group
> > or via email to me directly?
>
> I think noise reduction filters work great. They can often be extremely
> CPU intensive, but the end result is well worth it.
>
> You can grab the VirtualDub filters that I use to clean up analog
> broadcast television here:
> http://mythhelper.sourceforge.net
>
> If you get the source zip for mythhelper, you can use the VirtualDub
> settings files. In particular, DVD.vcf
> Depending on the quality of your source, you could play with the noise
> reduction settings to make them more aggressive.
>
>
> -WD
>
But I seem to be cursed about both VirtualDub and TMPGEnc, none were
ever able to accept DV files as captured via firewire. These were
captured with ULEAD Video Studio-7, also trial version VS-8.
I always get an error messageregarding the file type.
What am I doing wrong?


Max

========================================================================

Regards,
Max

--

Max Haltermann, Geelong VIC
maxh@pipeline.com.au
 
G

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Dietmar Haltermann wrote:

>
> But I seem to be cursed about both VirtualDub and TMPGEnc, none were
> ever able to accept DV files as captured via firewire. These were
> captured with ULEAD Video Studio-7, also trial version VS-8.
> I always get an error messageregarding the file type.
> What am I doing wrong?



You probably need to install a VfW DV codec, like this one:
http://users.tpg.com.au/mtam/install_panvfwdv.htm

I use the Matrox one on my system, but the download link for it doesn't
seem to be available anymore.


-WD
 
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G

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In article <UeVDc.1671$Vi5.1551@fe1.columbus.rr.com>, Will Dormann
<URL:mailto:wdormann@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> Dietmar Haltermann wrote:
>
> >
> > Thanks Will, I had a look at mythhelper, looked all very confusing to me.
> > Especially, as the accompanying text sounded, as if it were very simple.
> > Also I have never been able to get VirtualDub to work. Complains about
> > not finding something.
>
> Don't capture with VirtualDub. Just edit and/or filter.
> Open your captured video with VirtualDub.
> Open the DVD.vcf preset file. (This is assuming you've downloaded and
> installed the two filters linked from the mythhelper website)
> Frameserve to your favorite application if you like. (You may need the
> combination of ReadAVS and VFAPIConverter, depending on the app you're
> frameserving to)
>
> If you don't want to frameserve (you have gobs of extra disk space
> and/or you want the filtered video to be very responsive for the editing
> process), then you can just have VirtualDub save as an AVI and then work
> with that as you like.
>
> If you're confused about how VirtualDub and/or frameserving works, check
> this:
> http://www.videohelp.com/virtualdubframeserve.htm
>
>
> -WD

That is a terrific website! I tried to download the msver70.dll file but my
browser won't have it, can't read their version of Java or something.
Anyway I shall try VirtualDub once more using all the advice of videohelp.

Thanks again

Max


maxh@pipeline.com.au
 
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Dietmar Haltermann wrote:

> That is a terrific website! I tried to download the msver70.dll file but my
> browser won't have it, can't read their version of Java or something.
> Anyway I shall try VirtualDub once more using all the advice of videohelp.

Yeah, there's some good stuff on there.
As for the msvcr70.dll file, I'm not sure what your problem was.
Clicking on that link just pops up a google search for that file.
Maybe try Firefox as a web browser... it works great and is secure.

But actually, I've never used the msvcr70.dll file on my machine.
I'd recommend going the readavs route. That works fine for me.

For programs which don't understand frameserving, the VFAPI Converter
utility works great. There's a download link at
http://mythhelper.sourceforge.net


Once you start frameserving, you'll wonder how you ever got by without it!


-WD
 

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