Archived from groups: rec.games.mahjong (
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<d_lau@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1104196359.235292.305030@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
[...]
>
> We must remember that Mahjong is a game played by folks, it is not a
> game to be judged -- i.e., there is no judge sitting behind each player
> to enforce the rules. So the MJ rules, in general, only deal with what
> is visible to other players. At the end of a hand, there is no rule
> that says everyone must reveal what tiles are in their hand to make
> sure they adhere to every rule during play.
I agree. Since winning is an obvious goal of a player, and since keeping a
Flower in a concealed hand will not allow a player to win (with the art.
5.20 ruling), there is no point for a player to keep a Flower in his
concealed hand, even there is no judge sitting behind him ^_^
So with that in mind, let
> us look at art. 5.20 again (note, this is only based on what Cofa
> posted, since I don't have access to the official CMCR rules):
I just found out a public access of CMCR online:
http://www.mjclub.com/RulesAndScore/Sports/
(Note, the site calls it China Mahjong Sports Rules.)
The following link will bring you sub-articles 20, 17 & 18 (for the latter
two, see next):
http://www.mjclub.com/RulesAndScore/Sports/Rule_05.asp
>
>> Art. 5.20 Replacing Flowers
>> After having drawn a Flower, the player shall place it in front of
> his
>> concealed hand, and draw a tile from the end of the wall as a
>> replacement tile.
>
> This rule is clear in only one thing: That the player who has a flower
> tile in his possession can place it in front of his concealed hand and
> draw a replacement tile. It does not stipulate when this is to take
> place, there is no "immediately" in the rule, nor is there any
> restriction that the replacement tile must be drawn before he is
> allowed to discard a tile.
It is true that there is no word of "immediately" in art. 5.20. But if you
read articles 5.17 (Chowing a tile) and 5.18 (Ponging a tile), you'll see
there is no word of "immediately" either. It's understood (or implied) that
the act must be done immediately. That's what I meant by "What Art. 5.20
says is in the same way other CMCR articles stipulating what a player could
or could not do" in my previous post. And that's why I think the answer in
Q&A 16 was wrong (it has the lack of consideration of the above factor).
Since Article 5 deals with "basic terms and general stipulations",
sub-articles 5.17, 5.18 and 5.20 shall have the authority to govern what and
how a player should perform in those appropriate moves. (Also see some new
finding next.)**
>
> What Cofa inferred (that the flower replacement tile must be drawned
> immediately) is not found in Art. 5.20. It may be found elsewhere in
> the rules, but not from the posted words of Art. 5.20.
Article 7 (Proceeding of the game)
(http://www.mjclub.com/RulesAndScore/Sports/Rule_07.asp), sub-article 7.4
(Discarding a tile) says:
After having drawn, chowed, ponged, konged, or replacing a Flower, if a
player cannot win he must discard a tile. (Cofa's translation)
Note that "replacing a Flower" is dealt with equally with drawing, chowing,
ponging and konging in this article, which stipulates when a player is to
discard a tile. Although the word is missing, it is understood the player
must discard a tile *immediately* if he cannot win.
And there is no other article elsewhere in the CMCR deals with how a Flower
is to be handled. (Therefore, any added explanations must comply with the
written rules, unless the original written rules are revised accordingly.)
**I just noticed now, that in this part of the rules more articles deal with
how a move is to be proceeded: art. 7.3 (drawing a tile), art. 7.4
(discarding a tile), art. 7.5 (chowing a tile), art. 7.6 (ponging a tile)
and art. 7.7 (konging a tile). ALL but art. 7.7 don't have the word
"immediately" in the rules. However, I believe, the meaning "immediately" is
implied in all these articles.
However, the
> Q&A 16 clarification makes sense because it basically says the
> "immediate replacement" is not an enforcable rule, so why bother. The
> player with the flower is allowed to replace the tile anytime he
> chooses. It makes perfect sense. I'd be willing to accept the "flower
> replacement must be immediate" rule if Cofa can convince me that the
> rule is enforcable without a judge sitting behind every player.
>
[cut & paste quote]
What is also clear is that a player with a
> flower tile in his concealed hand (note the choice of words "concealed
> hand" in Art. 5.20, in other words, no other player should know what
> tile is inside the concealed hand) cannot declare win, as determined by
> the rules for winning.
So if a player should want to win (he should, because it's a goal of the
game), he shall not keep the Flower in the concealed hand and therefore Art.
5.20 is generally enforceable by itself. (I use "generally" here because a
player can still keep the Flower in his concealed hand if he chooses not to
win.)
Let me know if you are now convinced or not ^_^
--
Cofa Tsui
www.iMahjong.com
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