Dissapointed with TH's attitude about game piracy

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I totally agree, and to the guy above that said something silly about "a small amount of games will be pirated" is just another justification that doesn't fly in the real world. The dev of COD4 estimated over 70% of the copies played online were pirated. But of course the pirates will say that is a lie cause it makes their case sound even more stupid. As for the Bioshock drm thing. How many of you would really have it installed on more than 5 machines anyhow? I would love to see the stealing of games go down for two main reasons, one, I think it is a real threat to the future and quality of pc gaming, and two, I think it sucks that I spend hard earned money for games, (some of the cost can probably be related to the price of the drm's) and then hear people feeling that they are entitled to the game for free cause the makers try to make it harder to get for free.

And how do you relate prohibition to piracy? Were people stealing alcohol from retailers to have the "speak easy's? No, they were making it themselves. If you don't like the way they make their games, don't buy it, make your own...
 



Well I have 2 desktops and a laptop that I use for gaming. I suppose I wouldn't be too bothered about having it on the 2nd desktop however.

The problem comes a little down the line. For example, in the last 3 months, I have had 3 motherboards. A Gigabyte GA-X38-DQ6, then an Asus P5N-T Deluxe, and now an Asus Striker II Formula.

That means my desktop (had I been an avid Bioshock player and installed it on all of them) would have eaten up at least 3 of my installs during that time, the Laptop 2 (as I have shifted it from Vista x86 to Vista x64).

Yeah I know that there is now a deactivation tool, but firstly, you don't always get the choice, Windows sometimes decides not to boot and needs to be reinstalled, a piece of hardware can die, forcing replacements and possibly Windows reinstalls - and when you get a new motherboard or other core piece of hardware you usually don't even think to yourself "oooh must remember to deactivate my Bioshock install!!"

I have a Steam copy of Bioshock but I didn't play it long before getting bored of it to be honest so it hasn't affected me. The REAL issue was when it was released. An excerpt from a statement by Activision:

Starting immediately, we will be upping the activation count to a 5 by 5 plan. We will be raising the maximum amount of computers a user can have BioShock installed on simultaneously from 2 to 5, and allowing a user to reinstall BioShock on each of those computers from 3 times to 5 times.
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As you can see, at release it was limited to 2 installs, and if you remember, there was an issue with the authentication server making it impossible to deactivate it. THIS was what caused the controversy, but even today it is possible for a legitimate user to fall foul of it.

Its just another thing end users shouldn't have to deal with. The only people that are hurt by DRM are the legitimate customers. The pirates have their crack, and the 5 install limit will never affect them.

Publishers make tighter and tighter DRM, all the while reducing the perceived value of their product relative to a pirate copy, and then go on to talk about the "genuine advantage". For example, MP3s that play anywhere, anytime, vs buying "playsforsure" music that, ironically, is sure not to play ever again... Seriously, they need to ADD value not reduce value. This could be done by :

1. DLC that requires you to register with a CD-Key. If you really want to be secure, fingerprint it automatically with a CD-key hash, meaning you can simply ban anyone that releases the DLC to P2P networks from online play and future DLC, and so that for it to work with a copy of the game, the CD-key used to download it and the CD key of the install must match. - THIS IS EASY. If a small site like www.cheathappens.com can do this with game trainers they don't want released to the wild before a certain date (quite effectively I might add!) then I'm sure EA games can manage it.

2. Tech support forums should only be usable by those that have registered their game, with the forum putting indicators in the posters profile to show they are registered - a number of games already do this at least partly. Bioware have this system iirc, and Egosoft did at the release of X3:Reunion, but they removed the post limit after releasing a Steam version without a CD-Key.

These two ideas could go a long way toward fighting piracy imho. While we are at it, remove overly restrictive DRM. If you must waste your money putting Safedisc or Securom on your game then fine, but make it apparent when it crashes that it is because of it being a pirate copy, and DON'T use things like Starforce and ridiculously complex and overly restrictive activation systems...

You will never eliminate piracy completely. That's unfortunate but realistic. All DRM will be broken. The solution is not "MOAR DRMS!!!!!111!!", it is to give people a reason to buy a legitimate copy, rather than giving them a reason to download it. The carrot works better than the stick.
 
^ Well I wouldn't really crack it but return it. I offer to bring in my computer too show them on the next Thursday, right? The trick is to scare them (they don't wanna organize) into returning the game. Or keep the receipt and go to a store that offers returns (I hate restocking fees of 10%).

Anyways I've only ever had two incidents with DRM anyway. Its not a big deal but I still prefer no DRM tho.....................
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sorry ive just returned here, and read that......

in the UK there isnt a store i can think of that will let me return a PC game, so if i buy a game and DRM breaks it, there is nothing i can do.


As for the Bioshock drm thing. How many of you would really have it installed on more than 5 machines anyhow?
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your not looking at the bigger picture, i bought this game, in the last 6 month i have reinstalled XP twice, and recently upgraded to VISTA to try it out, i will be going back to XP soon, ok i had to reinstall XP due to a crash and couldnt uninstall Bioshock properly, then when i upgraded to vista i forgot about it, so i have 2 activations of Bioshock left.....


so if my computer crashes, and i have to reinstall again or if i simply forget to uninstall it properly i will quickly be one my way to re-buy the game(i wont) but ill be pissed off.




one last thing...

you cant compare piracy figures to sale figures, if 70% of COD4 online is a pirate copy, how many of those pirates went out and bought the game after playing? how many just left the pirate copy on to avoid reinstalling the game? how many of those are registering as a pirate copy because they are using a No-cd crack(but have bought the game)?

you can chuck percentages and statistics around all you want but there completely useless sums unless you take all the other variables into account.
 
Piracy is bad for the industry and defending it is stupid and counterproductive, however DRM is worse for the industry and defending it is just downright idiotic. I have not heard a single good argument for it and there are many good ones against it.
 
I realize I come a little late to this thread and the whole debate, but reading through it, it seems to me that most of you have missed out on a rather important facet of the whole piracy problem.
We can discuss as much as we like such issues as drm, the definition and moral value of digital theft and how it affects the industry. But when doing so, we shouldn't lose track of a few facts that I will try to present here.

First thing is that as far as piracy or for that matter drm are concerned, we have no reliable numbers to work with.
The fact is, nobody really knows the real numbers for piracy (like the number or games or movies downloaded), what we can get at best are estimates, and then, even for those, most of the time they come from quite unreliable sources, namely the entertainment industry.
The second important number we don't know, is how much pirated copies affect real copy sales. The industry is keen on making a direct translation of their estimated number of pirated copies to an estimated number of lost sales. However, everybody here knows this to be untrue as many people download pirated content they would never buy otherwise. We could get estimates on that number, but that would require costly studies, and it might be the resulting numbers wouldn't please the industry so much.

So, as it appears, there are so few real numbers about piracy that both the pirates and the industry can pretty much say what they want about it. The main difference being that the industry has a huge marketing machine and is keen to use it to further its commercial interests.

So now, let's ask ourself, when an entertainment industry compagny sees its sales or going down or is on the verge of going bankrupt, what is the best position to hold from a commercial point of view? :

- To acknowledge that you've made some mistakes in management or in product design or even that your industry is going slower or might in fact enter a recession (the shareholder seldom look kindly on that).

or

- To blame it all on the pirates who are responsible for all the woes in the industry. A pity that nobody can verify they are actually the cause of anything or even a major contributing factor. But if one manages to convince the public and the investors, that pirates are the root of the problem, it will do for now.

What I'm getting at is that the communication and 'marketing' around piracy have quite a big commercial impact on the industry. Therefore it would be both foulish and naive to imagine that they will be honest about it.
Let us not forget that no matter how piracy really affect sales, these people have a commercial interest in the way the public perceives piracy.
 
Let me get this straight:

Since the company has a policy of not allowing returns on open PC games, my staff would forward all customers to me. I understand that this is a moot point since most retailers will not allow the return on open PC software
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Even the store Facelifter manages does not accept returns on open software. I live in Canada too and every store that sells software here has a sign saying 'No Returns'. Even IF we accept Facelifter's claim that he only given 3% returns we need to multiply this number up because most people know the rule of no return, so they do not try. Then, of those who try, what percent are diswaited by Facelifter's staff? And what percent hit a DRM issue and go online and get a crack so they can run the game they bought? Or the percent who smash the DVD and swear never to buy from that company again?

Look Facelifter, I have a difficult time accepting that someone in the industry could not see the harm DRM is doing. I have stopped impulse buying games because of my bad COD4 experience. So in your opinion, what percent of sales in Games are impulse buys? Because that's the minimum that game companies have lost from me.

Falcon688
 
RE: baba264

indeed. however they are screwing over legitimate customers to no gainful effect. At all.

The longest I have ever seen it take for a crack to come out is 3 days after release, and most games are cracked on the first day if not sooner.

You are not stopping the pirates and barely slowing them down if at all and at what cost? I can personally vouch for games losing sales due to DRM. I, and many people I know research DRM before purchasing games now, and if the DRM is particularly annoying, we do not buy the game. It comes down to this. They are almost certainly not inhibiting piracy with DRM, and they are definitely losing sales to DRM though it is unknown to what degree.

What is worse is that I know of people who have taken to pirating games that they would have purchased because they didn't want to deal with the DRM and they didn't want to support it financially.

Why pay big money on an inconvenience or outright screwing of legitimate customers for no beneficial effect whatsoever and quite probably a significant negative effect? It makes very poor business sense and it boggles the mind why it not only continues but gets worse with every generation.

For the good of the industry this needs to end.
 
How about this. We get the a special FBI computer Ops involved that tracks down pirates and blows their brains out. And then make a national public announcement with pictures of the victim. Then they can make one of those cute commercials that goes like "Johnny pirated, don't end up like Johnny."
 
I'm sorry for trying to shove a number in your faces, I think that many times people try and use numbers instead of intelligence.

I understand your point, infornography42, but I still believe that it is a much lower number than what people on this forum are saying. As a side note, I no longer work for EB Games. I am a PC Gamer, BIG TIME, and as such, I highly enjoyed getting into conversations with my customers on the topic of PC games. The shear amount of people that I got to talk to over the three years that I worked for EB should give me somewhat of a informed opinion on the issue. If people aren't talking about the games they love they are complaining about something or another.

I don't want to dispute the fact that DRM's is a bad thing. I just don't think it's a reason to pirate. Most of the DRM issues that people have claimed they've had in this thread, we can assume are due to other pirated games or pirating software that they've had on their computers in the first place. I know that some of you have had legitimate issue's with DRM and that is why DRM sucks.

YOU CAN RETURN PC GAMES!! You just need to know how.
If a game doesn't disclose what type of software is included then you will be able to return it. If a game doesn't properly list the requirements, them you WILL be able to return it. These requirements should also include the requirements of the DRM! You may have to talk to the manager and or the district manager, but it WILL get it returned. For anyone who's thinking of trying this(and I really hope someone does)I would highly recommend bringing in some information on the DRM that was included with the game in question. The only reason why people get talked out of returning open PC games is because of what is written on the outside of the box. If you use this against them you will win. If the information is not correct then you have a right to return it, and a return is what you'll get.
If you're calm and informed you can get anything returned!

If more people did this when they had a problem with DRM then publishers would stop using DRM faster than we could debate about it. The retailers forced the publishers to write all that crap on the box so that they could start turning away people that had issues.
 
Good lord, this is a never-ending thread. I mean, wow. I'm not saying a lot of this discussion hasn't been interesting and certainly worthwhile, but seriously, I think we're going in circles now. It feels like that scene in the movie "Miracle" with the endless suicide drills, back and forth all night, and I'm Mike Eruzione, about to puke my guts out and collapse on the ice.
 

What you're saying is funny to me, because I actually went with Hellgate London into the EB Games where I bought it with the original box (opened), and told them "This game has a lot of errors and is basically unplayable". LOL TOO BAD, it's a PC game.

Yeah, that's why I only buy games I've already played, and know I like. If we're going to play the blame game, and say that it's pirates faults that game companies are failing, let's go ahead and go a step further and blame the companies that made games **** enough to force people into piracy.
 

Ahh, RobWright. Every time someone pirates a game, a single tear drops down your face. :)
 


"It's like you're unraveling a big cable-knit sweater that someone keeps knitting and knitting and knitting and knitting and knitting and knitting..."
--Pee-wee Herman
 
Ok, I'm going to use a bit of an extended line of logic here so I appreciate not all will agree.

You've all seen the news story about MS shutting down their "PlaysForSure" authentication servers.

Now, lets consider the name of that DRM system for a second, "PlaysForSure". It seems obvious and logical to me that this was a name chosen to reassure potential buyers that they were not going to have issues getting their product to work - the DRM wasn't going to be a headache.

Some people will have spent hundreds of dollars, maybe even thousands, filling up their music players with this music, secure in the knowledge that they are supporting the artists, they are on the right side of the law, and that when they drop their MP3 player in the lake while on a jog - they can replace the player and the music is safe!

What happens now? MS turn off the activation servers. You'd better not upgrade that MP3 player or PC, you'd better not have a hard disk failure or put your MP3 player through the washing machine. If the MP3 player has a non-replaceable battery, you'd better hope it doesn't wear out, because if any of these happen your invested money is just GONE.

Given this as an example of how untrustworthy the DRM-pushers are, (and MS are also a software company) it's not hard to see why people get nervous with restrictive DRM - even when it WORKS. As I say, I can never see them doing it, but if Valve shut down Steam, what recourse do you have? If 2K go out of business and the Bioshock activation servers die, who do you complain to about your bricked game?

I can't say I will EVER buy a music track with DRM after the MS PlaysForSure rip off. I can see it pushing people to illegal downloads - which will never break. What's that, DRM causing piracy you say? Shock! Horror!!

When companies feel free to act like this, there is little wonder cracking and piracy are rife. The companies feel no moral obligation to avoid ripping off customers, why should the customers feel a moral obligation to avoid ripping off the companies?

Seriously I think MS should be facing a class action suit for this. They should be forced to keep the activations server running indefinitely, or be required to release a tool to strip off the DRM - which they would struggle to get the content owners to authorise.

I know my example is based on a music distribution service, but it was done by a software company, and it COULD happen to a game or application.

This gives pirated software a perceived added value. I don't understand why they would want to do this. Alienate your customers, rip them off, and then complain when they respond in kind?!
 
Meh.

If I don't like a particular DRM in a game I simply will not buy it.

As a fan of X2: The Threat, I was greatly anticipating it's sequel; X3: Reunion. However, I decided not to buy it since it was being released with StarForce.

I bought the game only after an official patch was released to that did not install StarForce when a newly installed X3 was first launched.

Apparently, the game publisher (Enlight) decided that DRM wasn't really worth it anymore (too many complaints and slowing sales perhaps). Enlight allowed the developer (EgoSoft) to release a patch that no longer installed StarForce. EgoSoft also released a utility to remove StarForce as well if it has already been installed.
 
Pleas don't get me wrong Darkstar, I have had issues with some older Ubi and EA games copy protection, and it really pi$$ed me of bad. But I also totally understand the publishers side of it all when hundreds of thousands of their games are getting played for free and then people bitching about them trying to stop it.
And also remember that this is all opinion, but this is really a chicken or the egg thing. The early games had a keycode, and as far as I know that was it. The people stealing the games in the first place is what gave way to all this complicated drm crap to begin with. All I can do is hope that they get it figured out soon and have a seamless solution, instead of giving up on giving the pc the "A" list high value titles. Cause we all know that people aren't going to stop stealing them. And the PC is still the best gaming platform with the most potential.
 


Man, I must be getting old....

It's Snake Plissken. In order to redeem yourself, Physx7, you must watch "Escape From New York" ASAP. But please don't download it 😉
 



:)
:)
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never ending but makes great discussion :)

DRM FTL

while many say that DRM is to make it harder to pirate so people will be discouraged, what they don't see is that the only one who the DRM effects is the person cracking it, everyone else downloading the cracked copy never notices the DRM

so basically there spending almost a half million dollars to just annoy 1 or 2 people who end up cracking often a day after a game comes out or in many cases a week before the game comes out on store shelves.

DRM companies know that they cant stop piracy, and thats not their focus, their focus is to encourage piracy so they can keep their jobs


look at crime on the streets

in NY just pulling out my PDA for a few seconds to see the time caused 2 people to try and steal it from me

the police can easily just get people of different age groups to walk around the city while holding onto a PDA or ipod or other electronics while a few undercover police follow them from a distance then when someone tries to rob them, they just arrest them, if they do this enough then the streets will be a safe place where you don't have to be scared take out anything worth more than $5.

but the police don't do this because if they stop the most common type of crime (theft which is stealing in a way that deprives the victim of the item), which will cause law enforcement to downsize which means they could loose their jobs.

same with government defense, keep the public always scared of terrorism then they wont mind taxing the hell out of them in order to fund a non existent defense.
 
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