Does Watercooling Suck?

[fig7]

so I too am a bit concerned for you in the summer

I think the PC will be ok. It's got a temperature display for both the CPU and GPU so I can keep an eye on the temps. I'm not sure about me though: warm weather isn't something us Brits are used to!

 

[fig7]

Everything was fine last summer, but then I was cooling an Athlon64 3000+ (2.0 GHz) and a Radeon 9800.

This year it's a Athlon64 3700+ (@ 2.6 GHz) and a Radeon X1900XT. I reckon I'm probably at the limit of what the Reserator 1 can handle. Like I said it's fine under full load at the moment, but I wonder what the temps will be on the hottest day of summer when I'm playing HL2 Episode 2 (assuming Valve get it finished by then!)

 

[aigomorla]

heres my 2 cents on passive watercooling.

dont get it. Unless u intend on converting a 120x4 radiator to run passively without fans. thats the only passive thing i recomend.

*another one of aigo's watercooling newbies faq 101*

The resererator, like the xspc htp system, ARE NOT TRUE RADIATORS. IF you want to class them, there more like big reservoirs with fins. The liquid is allowed to chill in the container, and convection cools it naturally.

Now a regulator radiator is composed of thin copper tubes tightly compressed. The fins are orientated so maximum amounts of surface is allowed to cool though convection as well, but with the assistance of a fan if needed.

Thin pipe rads are the only thing people should be looking at for decient watercooling temps. There is no arguement here. Unless you intend to BONG your loop, your not going to get better cooling then a 120x1 radiator on medium fan spin on a reserator.

you guys really need to check my guide over at anandtech. Im going to write up a bong section on the rad soon. A fellow member is starting a bong project today.



Lastly, whats wrong with the reserator?

1. its made of alu
2. blocks are made of alu
3. massive pump failures from users.
4. noobs think they can tweek it by adding a copper block to the loop
5. galvanic corrosion will hit them in about 3-4 months, funk will build up in your pumps and cause it to die, and cause a hole in your blocks, as well as the reserator.

So whats wrong with the reserator? look above.


and yes my cousin has had one. And yes he idiotically installed an apogee to it. And yes he melted a nice fat hole on the corner of the reserator near the pump seal, and it leaked all over his floor and almost fryed his system.


Is this bad enough for ya?

if your going to use the reserator, it is VITAL you stay with zalman waterblocks. To be honest, zalman can kiss my butt on waterblocks. There absolutely worthless, and its all just a toy to bling your system out.

 

[fig7]

Well, I guess everyone has different experiences!

You are right that the reserator isn't a true radiator. As far as I can tell it is just a big reservoir with fins, as you said. An expensive one at that.

But I've never had a problem with the pump or "galvanic corrosion", whatever that is, and I've had the thing for a couple of years. And the silence is bliss. Although annoyingly I now get irritated by the sound of the fridge in the kitchen!

 

[knowsitall]

personally water cooling jsut sux, why water cool? in 3 months u could buy a cpu for cheaper that will out perform ur watercooled chip.. just stick to air.

 

[aigomorla]

personally water cooling jsut sux, why water cool? in 3 months u could buy a cpu for cheaper that will out perform ur watercooled chip.. just stick to air.

Here we go again with this:

Yeah water sucks:

ummm so far. my opty minus the ones run on sub ambient cooling, has the lowest temp in the 3ghz range.


This is absolutely not possible on AIR

And yeah, my nas being uber quiet then 2/3rds of all the computers listed on SPCR doesnt help too huh?? i think total db lvl of my unit is well withiin under 30db. Infact the loudest part of my NAS is the ticking noise the HD makes when someone tries to access it.


Also, having a E6600 @ 3.6ghz at 1.42v pushing 37C loaded = sux huh?

oh did i mention my old apogee block, as well as my new apogeeGT and GTX and my dtek fusion can mount to virtually ANY board thats on the market now or thats been on the market in the past 3 yrs.

I dont think your tuniq can even do that. And btw... your tuniq would idle at around 34-37C at my settings. I think having load temps being YOUR idle temps merit itself in value.

Please dont talk about somethign you have no experience in. IT just makes you look stupidier

Anyhow to answer fig7: thats becuase you played smart and deicded to keep all your parts to zalman. If you stay inside companys, you'll be safe from corrosion. But the moment you see Copper on any of the blocks, thats NOT PLATED BY SOMETHING ELSE. ie, a typical waterblock, from DD or swiftech, you will start the galavinic corrosion cycle.

STay with zalman blocks, and you'll be safe. However alu is a terrible watercooling heat dispenser. Personally if i could get access to one, id love to use a silver block.

 

[Groveling_Wyrm]

Not responding to you taco....

....just adding to the thread... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

If you haven't already researched, you may be interested in finding out what exactly is in those heatpipes on the new coolers coming out, such as the Thermalright 120 Ultra, the Tuniq Tower 120, the Noctua....

You would be surprised....it almost makes this thread moot.....ALMOST....

(Although it does lend credence to your arguement about radiators, Taco...)

LOL!!!

 

[aigomorla]

could use use coretemp 95 or speedfan 4.32 for temps? Those are far more accurate than the ntune (or you could use core temp 94, but that is 15c too low)

This tuesday i am rebuilding my system with these parts:

ApogeeGTX - Bowed
Thermochill PA120.2
BlackICE GTS 120.1
DD 680i chipset block -NB
Swiftech MCW30 chipset block -SB
EK FC7900 - my 2 gpus in SLI
Laing DDC-2 /w Petra Top x 2
EK Reservoir


This is all going into my armor. I need to swap out my defective AR to a newly advance RMA'd A1 <3 EVGA

Anyhow, i will orthos, with CORETEMP and TAT. I will also push her at 1.53V max voltage on NB/SB also the NB->SB.

I'll show you the power of water on a L631B120 E6600 chip.

But you'll have to wait til tuesday. My GTX is taking forever by stupid UPS.

 

[Groveling_Wyrm]

What I was leading to was that the newer heat-pipe style coolers were filled with fluids such as distilled water in vacuum to increase the heat transfer...thus....making them a relative hybrid self-contained water cooling setup...

.....and this being a similar situation to a vehicle radiator, with the exception that it uses convection in closed environment rather than open loop...

 

[RichPLS]

So if watercooling suks, then air cooling blows! :lol:

 

[The_Interloper]

I've been watching this topic as it progressed. At one point, I was into video editing which kept my slow overheating cpu at 100%. I dove into watercooling without a second guess to combat the temperature issues. My first experience with w/c was with koolance. Later I found that it was less superior than custom kits but more superior and quieter than air. My current setup consist of a sandy 4000 an a x850xt that I watercool as well as my southbridge using a TDX, Maze 4 gpu and chipset block. My cpu idles at 36 and gpu is equal to the current water temp but never higher than the cpu. Load is 44 on the cpu. Some may feel thats high but I'm using 3/8 inch Tygon, a BIP 120 with the fan configured for 5v, another 5v 120 case fan, an a D5 pump turned all the way down. I'm going for a good balance between sound and temps and I still get better performance compared to air. Results will vary due to the case you choose, cooling components, and pc components you decide to cool but if you do it correctly, you won't regret it.

 

[ZOldDude]

A good case with exit fan guard removed for full air flow along with a good air cooler can get the same cooling as a non-chilled water system.

I have an Optron with a 950Mhz OC and Thermalright SI-120 cooler in a CM Stacker and it runs only 2C over room temp.

Correct air flow is they key....try to get intake/exit all in the same dirrect path to avoid "twister effect" that seems to only mix the air inside the case (IE: side fans).
Using this methodeyou just saved over $300 and alot of work.

 

[sirheck]

but I am considering taking my (IHS) off to get a higher overclock, that should give me an edge over all almost all aircoolers on the market and get me water stability

8O

how do you plan to do that and why?

 

[sirheck]

i wouldnt want to try that. if you do good luck.

i would say get an arctic freezer pro64.

BUT i got both of mine for 19.99 and the first one for 39.99.
last time i checked them they were 69.99 8O

nevermind, just checked and they are back to 29.99.

 

[clue69less]

The way you get below ambient temps is by using the peltier I have been rambling on on about that nobody seems to notice, that's the only way besides phase change, and basically, the same concept applies, you use a ton of resistant to basically get one side on fire (you really need a powerful radiator for the stronger peltiers) and the other side gets basically freezing, so in the end you idle at close to 0c with cool running cpus like conroes or low clocked x2s

You could buy a chiller like those used in laboratory instrumentation. Basically, a chiller is a refrigerator coupled to a heat exchanger. You can run an aqueous coolant like water plus antifreeze and run subambient. I've used such systems and they are flexible, reliable and expensive. One advantage over a phase system is that multiple blocks can be run so GPUs, NBs and CPUs can be cooled by one chiller. But I've never seen an aqueous heat exchange liquid chiller that will run as cool as a Vapochill, so it's not the best setup for an extreme OC rig. But a gamer looking to OC the CPU and GPUs could make good use out of a chiller.

Oh, yea, LN2 and dry ice are other subambinet solutions.

 

[clue69less]

Sounds like a very appealing concept, but since I have just $290, I can't afford anything special, and my monitor is dying on me, so that goes on the upgrade list for taco

If you live near a university or a high tech corridor, you might be able to find a used chiller cheap and refurb it yourself. I've done a refurb, things like new seals, reload coolant, etc. Pretty easy stuff.

 

[aigomorla]

A good case with exit fan guard removed for full air flow along with a good air cooler can get the same cooling as a non-chilled water system.

I have an Optron with a 950Mhz OC and Thermalright SI-120 cooler in a CM Stacker and it runs only 2C over room temp.

Correct air flow is they key....try to get intake/exit all in the same dirrect path to avoid "twister effect" that seems to only mix the air inside the case (IE: side fans).
Using this methodeyou just saved over $300 and alot of work.

You never stated what your load temps are. You can get near ambient with a tuniq, and you also failed to measure what HSF your on.

And no a good aircooler cant match water. I dont care how hard you try, or what duct system you have. Straight up, unless your on sub ambient, you cant match water. Even the tuniq standing outside with 2 high speed deltas, wouldnt match the cooling capacity of a middle class h2o unit.

So for the love of god, stop telling people air will match water. The physics behind it doesnt even make sense. The rad just gives you way more surface area to cool then any air cooler on the market.

And if it makes you feel better, im sure ur using a mobo monitor to messure temps. On a good h2o cooling kit, coretemp will report a lower temp then your mobo temp. just to let you know.

 

[Mugz]

Check about two pages back. Somebody went into the maths of how much air an engine pulls.

Another engine type that is commonly aircooled are radial-type aircraft engines - the ones with the cylinders sticking out in all directions from the crank.

 

[Opterondo]

ancient chinese proverb: watercooling suck if you suck at installing watercooling; blowing of air better than sucking of water if coinage not allow Zalman monkey and Swiftech bear.

 

[gondo]

I did not read all the posts. But here is my take.

Yes, a radiator cooled water cooler will not cool much better than a good heatsink, therefor the extra expense and maintenance of a watercooler is not worth it.

However when you are overclocking, a watercooler is typically more capable of handling the extra heat. There is a difference in temp at idle, and full overclock load.....the water cooler performs better at full overclock load.

As far as noise goes, the water cooler wins. You can have larger and quieter fans strapped to a radiator. Heatsinks have small fast fans that are loud.

Watercooling has the option of tweaking. You can chill your water by running it through a refrigeration unit. I built a water cooler in a small bar fridge like 8 years ago when water cooling was just starting off.

I agree for 99% of the market a regular heatsink is the way to go. Water cooling is a good option for extra cooling, coolness factor, and for those who take computer hardware as a hobby. You can get UV dyes for the water, etc....

Now for those really wanting the extra edge and to go way beyond what todays awesome heatsinks can provide. I'd say refrigerated phase cooled cases are the way to go. Such as the Vapochill units. This is where you wanna be for extreme cool.

So overall you are partly right in saying watercooling quite isn't what it used to be. It may not suck, but it isn't what it used to be compared ot todays heatsinks. But there is still a niche market for those who want to adapt watercoolers to tricked out homemade cases and tweak them for looks. Colored water, special acrylic water reservoirs, etc... Water cooling is nice hobby when you get into this side of things, it cools half decent, and its quiet. Very nice if you wanna spend the extra cash as a hobby.

 

[aigomorla]

I did not read all the posts. But here is my take.

Yes, a radiator cooled water cooler will not cool much better than a good heatsink, therefor the extra expense and maintenance of a watercooler is not worth it.

However when you are overclocking, a watercooler is typically more capable of handling the extra heat. There is a difference in temp at idle, and full overclock load.....the water cooler performs better at full overclock load.

As far as noise goes, the water cooler wins. You can have larger and quieter fans strapped to a radiator. Heatsinks have small fast fans that are loud.

Watercooling has the option of tweaking. You can chill your water by running it through a refrigeration unit. I built a water cooler in a small bar fridge like 8 years ago when water cooling was just starting off.

I agree for 99% of the market a regular heatsink is the way to go. Water cooling is a good option for extra cooling, coolness factor, and for those who take computer hardware as a hobby. You can get UV dyes for the water, etc....

Now for those really wanting the extra edge and to go way beyond what todays awesome heatsinks can provide. I'd say refrigerated phase cooled cases are the way to go. Such as the Vapochill units. This is where you wanna be for extreme cool.

So overall you are partly right in saying watercooling quite isn't what it used to be. It may not suck, but it isn't what it used to be compared ot todays heatsinks. But there is still a niche market for those who want to adapt watercoolers to tricked out homemade cases and tweak them for looks. Colored water, special acrylic water reservoirs, etc... Water cooling is nice hobby when you get into this side of things, it cools half decent, and its quiet. Very nice if you wanna spend the extra cash as a hobby.

Personally i prefer TEC's over a VAPO/Phase change.

You cant phase gfx cards unless you got a multi stage unit. Even then, you'd most likely need dual phase units to pull that off.

And if i remember correctly, my X2, was loading nicely at -11C

But these are a bit extreme. And when i say TEC, i dont mean the really shitty and craptasic monsoon coolers, which are AIR TEC products. Nor do i mean the overpriced stupidly inefficient Coolit Freezone either.


Theres only 1 way to pull tec's off right. Thats with its own PSU, and on Water blocks to cool the hotside. Any otherway of using TEC's is simply too wasteful.

 

[gondo]

Well when I said phase change I meant electrical cooling in general. Using electricity to produce refrigeration. Phase change, peltier, tec, etc... Not air nor water, but refrigeration, air conditioning, whatever you wanna call it.

Nowadays that is the way to go. Water cooling just isn't what it used to be 8 years ago. We have heat pipes, and tons of copper now, and motherboards made to fit a zalman. The expense of watercooling is not worth the performace compared to todays heatsinks. TEC is the way to go.

 

[aigomorla]

Well when I said phase change I meant electrical cooling in general. Using electricity to produce refrigeration. Phase change, peltier, tec, etc... Not air nor water, but refrigeration, air conditioning, whatever you wanna call it.

Nowadays that is the way to go. Water cooling just isn't what it used to be 8 years ago. We have heat pipes, and tons of copper now, and motherboards made to fit a zalman. The expense of watercooling is not worth the performace compared to todays heatsinks. TEC is the way to go.

if watercooling isnt worth the performance then how the heck do you intend to cool the tecs?

If you say heatpipe air coolers like the monsoon. Im sorry pal, you need to head over to xtremesystems.org/forums and do some newbie TEC reading.


Also air heat pipe coolers as efficeint as water? Not by a longshot... You show me an air cooler that will keep a C2D @ 1.45V under 35C idle. Then maybe you got a shot. As for now, thats known as the infamous "i got a tuniq and these temps are bad" thread which has been intensly poping up.


also the transfer of heat on mediums for air vs water -> favors water by almost 10x if you do all the math.

So where was i?? oh yeah.. air caught up to water? bwahahaha... maybe if i was running 1.45v and the guy on the tuniq was running 1.35v



But just to clear things up with people about TEC's. You learn to watercool first, and then you jump to TECs. Not the other way around, or on the first bat. TEC's and phase is a different world my friend. Your seriously stepping up to the big league.

 

[cletus_slackjawd]

Another idea is to lower the ambient by putting in an A/C unit in the window (but this unfortunately doesn't add any street cred to your rig).

I have another idea: Use a tropical fish tank as a radiator, heating it in the process. Just have a backup heater for when CPU is not running. The tank would probably need to be 20 gallons for overclocking headroom.

Lastly: Has anyone ever thought about using Brass-O metal polish to clean thermal surfaces when reapplying HS Compound? Is there anything in the cleaner that could impede thermal transfer or all good? I know you can buy stuff to remove the old compound but taking it off plus polishing the surface at the same time is appealing.

 

[aigomorla]

correctly me if im wrong, but doesnt that cleaner have some form of acid to make it shiny?

i think it would okey to use on blocks, however i would keep that stuff far far away from your radiator.