Build Advice DS/AI/ML build - first build in fifteen years - does it all work together?

[thill3]

Approximate Purchase Date: Nothing required. Soon would be good though. I'm ready to order things now.

Budget Range: 1500 USD ish

System Usage from Most to Least Important:
1. Data Science/Artificial Intelligence/Machine Learning. My main interest is convolutional neutral networks (image processing), but i want to be able to run other ML too.
2. Might do some occasional solo gaming. Talos Principle, Euro Truck Simulator, stuff like that.
3. Want to plug it into the TV to watch movies (I have an extra HDMI cord so that the TV functions like a giant monitor)

Are you buying a monitor: No

Parts to Upgrade: Starting from scratch. A lot has changed in fifteen years since i last did this.

Do you need to buy OS: No. Windows 11 makes me uncomfortable due to bloatware and preinstalled spy/surveillance stuff in their code. I think i will probably go for a Linux distribution. Ubuntu maybe. Don't know a lot about all the differences yet.

Preferred Website(s) for Parts: I'm not partial. Seems that i can get better deals if I'm willing to shop around. Amazon, Newegg, manufacturer sites, all are options.

Location: Rochester, NY. If you can find a local shop, that's great

Parts Preferences: AMD for the processor. Geforce for the GPU. I'm led to understand that those are, in general, preferable to Intel and Radeon for my use case. After that I'm not much concerned about the manufacturer of the other parts as long as the quality is reasonable.

Overclocking: Not interested.

SLI or Crossfire: Maybe. If the motherboard can handle multiple GPUs and I can eventually afford to invest that kind of money.

Your Monitor Resolution: TV is 43 inches and 1920x1080. Might add or switch to Monitor that is 22 inches of 1920x1080.

Additional Comments:
Quiet would be nice but is not a deal breaker.
I'm not opposed to buying extra case fans if necessary.
I'm looking for a case that has fan spots on the bottom, top, front, and rear. (Bottom appears to be the hardest to find.)
I'm not interested in water cooling.
I'm not interested in overclocking.
I don't care about RGB lighting.
I want to minimize plastic (acrylic, abs, etc.). I understand i may not be able to remove all of it, but as much as possible would be nice.
I am not sure how to look up whether all the components will fit with each other and the case.
Making the build extendable is a side goal. More RAM, extra GPU, another SSD, that sort of thing when time and money permit.

And Most Importantly, Why Are You Upgrading: My laptop died earlier this year;and my interest in ML/AI is high right now. I have a monitor and TV that aren't doing much right now and would be great for watching DVDs (probably get an external drive) or streaming. Also want to be able to watch TV and do a little gaming when I have time.



I'm thinking of the following set of parts.
==========
PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/s8TQ28

CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 7900 3.6 GHz 12-Core Processor ($399.00 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Thermalright Assassin X 120 Refined SE 66.17 CFM CPU Cooler ($17.89 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B650 EAGLE AX ATX AM5 Motherboard ($179.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 96 GB (2 x 48 GB) DDR5-5600 CL40 Memory ($279.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Black SN770 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive ($138.99 @ Amazon)
Case: NZXT H6 Flow ATX Mid Tower Case ($93.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $1109.85
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-04-13 14:49 EDT-0400
==========
Not listed is a 3060 ti GPU and an 850w PSU.
What can you say about compatibility?
Will the parts fit together?
Will the parts fit in the case?
Can the CPU use 192 GB RAM at DDR-5600 without overclocking, or do i have to choose between learning to overclock and limiting myself to 128 GB at DDR5-5200?

 

[Lutfij]

Not listed is a 3060 ti GPU and an 850w PSU.
What is the make and model of the PSU and it's age?

Can the CPU use 192 GB RAM at DDR-5600 without overclocking, or do i have to choose between learning to overclock and limiting myself to 128 GB at DDR5-5200?
All you'll need to do is enable AMD E.X.P.O r X.M.P in BIOS.

 

[thill3]

Not listed is a 3060 ti GPU and an 850w PSU.
What is the make and model of the PSU and it's age?

Hadn't settled on anything in particular yet. Expecting to buy PSU new (or refurbished) alongside everything else. Was leaning toward a semi-modular due to it having a lower price than a fully modular.


As I've said earlier, i have an additional goal here.

Making the build extendable is a side goal. More RAM, extra GPU, another SSD, that sort of thing when time and money permit.

 

[USAFRet]

Making the build extendable is a side goal. More RAM, extra GPU, another SSD, that sort of thing when time and money permit.

Buy the RAM you need now. Even possibly more than you need now.
"adding RAM later" is a path to fail.

SSDs and GPU can be added, no problem.

 

[35below0]

Can the CPU use 192 GB RAM at DDR-5600 without overclocking, or do i have to choose between learning to overclock and limiting myself to 128 GB at DDR5-5200?

If you want to avoid memory overclocking, you have to stick to 4800Mhz. It's hardly a big difference, but something you should know.

And nope, i wasn't paying attention. You were correct. Sorry.
It depends entirely on the motherboard and it's specs. That said, the difference is small and most people seem to gravitate towards 6000Mhz.

 

[thill3]

Buy the RAM you need now. Even possibly more than you need now.
"adding RAM later" is a path to fail.

SSDs and GPU can be added, no problem.

At the risk of completely derailing the thread I'm going to point out that your point could be made much more usefully and helpfully by pointing out *why* adding RAM later is a problem and what I should do in *the future* given that I'm already butting up against my budget (that was explicitly stated in the original post).

 

[35below0]

Do you care about USB-C? The motherboard you chose has only gen 1 port & header.

And just fyi, a quiet cooler is going to cost a little extra but is so worth paying for. In my opinion.

*why* adding RAM later is a problem and what I should do in *the future*

It's complicated.
tl;dr - RAM upgrades are simplest when old RAM is taken out and new RAM installed in it's place. Mixing RAM is a path to frustration. And that's the short answer...

 

[USAFRet]

At the risk of completely derailing the thread I'm going to point out that your point could be made much more usefully and helpfully by pointing out *why* adding RAM later is a problem and what I should do in *the future* given that I'm already butting up against my budget (that was explicitly stated in the original post).

OK, the "why".

Mixing RAM is a crapshoot. Buying 2x today, and adding 2x next year often fails.
Even if you buy the (supposed) exact same.

It may come from 2 different factories.

This is a question asked here daily, and always the same answer.
"It may work, it may fail. The only guarantee of 'working' is to purchase RAM sold as a set. It has been tested at the factory to work together."


I've personally had RAM of the same manufacturer and model fail.

Orig:
2x 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4

Add:
2x 32GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4

So...96GB, right?

System boots up just fine. Reports all 96GB.

A very few minutes later, ethernet drops out.

Playing around, nothing would fix it.

Remove the new RAM, system works fine
Swap in only the 2x 32GB, system works fine.

In no config would all 4 sticks work together.

Each pair, no problem.

Months later, the system is working with the 2x 32GB (64GB total) just fine.

 

[35below0]

There is an issue with the chosen Vengeance RAM. It's not listed on the Gigabyte QVL for that Eagle motherboard.

You'd have to go with this $400 kit if you wanted 2x48: https://pcpartpicker.com/product/xb...dr5-6800-cl34-memory-f5-6800j3446f48gx2-tz5rk

I think either of these two motherboards would be an improvement:

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/Lw...fi-atx-am5-motherboard-mag-b650-tomahawk-wifi

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/KrWJ7P/gigabyte-b650-aorus-elite-ax-v2-atx-am5-motherboard-b650-aorus-elite-ax-v2

MSi has better audio and better VRM, Gigabyte supports faster RAM both with and without OC. In other aspects they are very similar.

I've gone with MSi. Here's the build:

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 7900 3.6 GHz 12-Core Processor ($399.00 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Scythe Mugen 6 Dual Fan 60.29 CFM CPU Cooler ($54.99 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: MSI MAG B650 TOMAHAWK WIFI ATX AM5 Motherboard ($199.00 @ MSI)
Memory: Crucial CT2K32G52C42U5 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-5200 CL42 Memory ($193.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Crucial CT2K32G52C42U5 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-5200 CL42 Memory ($193.99 @ Amazon)
Alternate Memory: G.Skill Trident Z5 RGB 96 GB (2 x 48 GB) DDR5-5600 CL40 Memory ($299.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Blue SN580 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive ($119.00 @ iBUYPOWER)
Case: NZXT H6 Flow ATX Mid Tower Case ($93.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $1253.96 ($1165.97 with 96Gb RAM)
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-04-14 17:36 EDT-0400

It costs $150 more but gets you a more solid motherboard, quiet cooler, 128Gb of RAM that both MSi and Crucial say is compatible and works in 4 slots.
Now, Crucial does not sell that RAM in a 4x32 kit, so those are two 2x32 kits. That is risky because they may not want to work together, but MSi's QVL swears blind the CT32G52C42U5.M16G1 is compatible in 1/2/4 slots.

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MAG-B650-TOMAHAWK-WIFI/support#mem
If they don't work, you'd have to return them and settle on a 2x48 kit or try your luck with different RAM.
You are limited to 128Gb by the CPU, so your only options are 2x48 96Gb RAM, or x32 128Gb RAM.

On a minor note, i've swapped the SSD for a WD Blue instead of Black. Any particular reason you wanted the Black?
I would rather have the boring Blue or even a Crucial P3 PCIe 3.0 NVMe, but it's up to you. Afterall it is your money and your computer.

 

[thill3]

Do you care about USB-C? The motherboard you chose has only gen 1 port & header.

Looks like it has 2 to me.
===
USB 2.0 Headers
3
USB 2.0 Headers (Single Port)
0
USB 3.2 Gen 1 Headers
1
USB 3.2 Gen 2 Headers
1
USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 Headers
0
===

And just fyi, a quiet cooler is going to cost a little extra but is so worth paying for.

The Thermalright Peerless Assassin i proposed is the same price, quieter, And moves more air than the Scythe Mugen 6 that you propose. Why should i use yours instead of the one i had originally?

There is an issue with the chosen Vengeance RAM. It's not listed on the Gigabyte QVL for that Eagle motherboard.

Looks like it's on the list for the other GB MB you proposed.
https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/B650-AORUS-ELITE-AX-V2/support#support-memsup

MSi has better audio and better VRM, Gigabyte supports faster RAM both with and without OC.

I'm not much concerned about audio or video aside from watching some movies, news, or YouTube occasionally. As i said in my original post i'm mostly concerned about training AI/ML models with datasets of images. I also like that the GIGABYTE board has 2580/25110 slots for more or bigger SSDs in the future.

You are limited to 128Gb by the CPU

I've been informed elsewhere that the processor was developed before 48GB DIMMS existed, so AMD may have limited its "max RAM" spec number on this processor to the 4x32=128 that was available at the time. How accurate is that statement likely to be?

i've swapped the SSD for a WD Blue instead of Black. Any particular reason you wanted the Black?

No reason in particular. It was what popped up. I wanted a 2 TB SSD on an M.2 connection with NVMe interface.

 

[35below0]

Looks like it has 2 to me.
===
USB 2.0 Headers
3
USB 2.0 Headers (Single Port)
0
USB 3.2 Gen 1 Headers
1
USB 3.2 Gen 2 Headers
1
USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 Headers
0
===

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/B650-EAGLE-AX/sp#sp
CPU:
- 2 x USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type-A ports (red) on the back panel
- 1 x USB Type-C® port on the back panel, with USB 3.2 Gen 1 support
CPU+USB 2.0 Hub:
- 4 x USB 2.0/1.1 ports on the back panel
Chipset:
- 2 x USB 3.2 Gen 1 ports available through the internal USB header
- 1 x USB Type-C® port with USB 3.2 Gen 1 support, available through the internal USB header
- 4 x USB 2.0/1.1 ports (2 ports on the back panel, 2 ports available throughthe internal USB header)
Chipset+USB 2.0 Hub:
- 4 x USB 2.0/1.1 ports available through the internal USB headers

You got only gen 1. If that is a concern at all. Might not be.

The Thermaltake Assassin i proposed is the same price, quieter, and moves more air than the Scythe Mugen 6 that you propose. Why should i use yours instead of the one i had originally?

I'm not sure it's a better performer. That said, the 7900 doesn't need a world-beater.
I suggested the Mugen as a compromise choice over the Noctua NH-D15. That is a remarkably silent CPU cooler though it does have a price.
You can go with the Assassin. I don't think it will be noisy. And if it does annoy you, you can swap it out later. It's dirt cheap so no great loss.

One advantage of the Mugen 6 is that it's asymmetrical. It's offset away from the RAM so there's no problem with tall RAM clearance.
And it looks like your best bet for a 2x48 Gb kit is a G.Skill Trident Neo which is taller than most RAM sticks.

I'm not much concerned about audio or video aside from watching some movies, news, or YouTube occasionally. As i said in my original post i'm mostly concerned about training AI/ML models with datasets of images. I also like that the GIGABYTE board has 2580/25110 slots for more or bigger SSDs in the future.

I think all three choices mentioned are ok. Eagle is just ok and honestly overpriced a little bit for it's spec. Aorus Elite v2 and Tomahawk cost more but make better long term choices. Toss a coin between them. If you've had good experiences in the past with Gigabyte, stick with them. Just consult their memory QVL so as to know which RAM to buy.

I don't think you'll see any "must have" 2580/25110 drives. 2280 form already offers a lot of variation in storage space, speed, and cost. I think it's a waste to buy a motherboard with wide NVMe support unless you already have those drives ready to buy and use.

I've been informed elsewhere that the processor was developed before 48GB DIMMS existed, so AMD may have limited its "max RAM" spec number on this processor to the 4x32=128 that was available at the time. How accurate is that statement likely to be?

AMD said so and never bothered updating their CPU specs page. The MSi MAG B650 Tomahawk does support up to 256Gb of RAM, so if the 7900 doesn't limit you to 128Gb, you could go higher.

No reason in particular. It was what popped up. I wanted a 2 TB SSD on an M.2 connection with NVMe interface.

Ok, well some say a fast OS drive is very important while others say they can't notice any difference between gen3 and gen 4 drives, whether they be "fast" os "slow".

Since data is probably important to you, you might want to err on the side of long term reliability and look for a drive with good warranty. That would be a sign the manufacturer is sure they're well built and wont need to be returned and replaced.
The WD Blue is not particularly fast but is reasonably durable and comes with a 5y warranty. Other good choices would be Inland Prime, Crucial P3, or for a higher price the WD SN850X, or Samsung 980/990 Pro. More expenisve but more durable.

 

[thill3]

Having trouble getting a parts list with links, so here's one without.

===
PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/Jv2tYN

CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 7900 3.6 GHz 12-Core Processor ($399.00 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 SE 66.17 CFM CPU Cooler ($33.90 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B650 AORUS ELITE AX V2 ATX AM5 Motherboard ($199.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 96 GB (2 x 48 GB) DDR5-5600 CL40 Memory ($279.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Blue SN580 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive ($119.00 @ iBUYPOWER)
Video Card: MSI AERO ITX OC GeForce RTX 3060 12GB 12 GB Video Card ($279.99 @ Newegg)
Case: NZXT H6 Flow ATX Mid Tower Case ($93.99 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: MSI MAG A850GL PCIE5 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply ($89.00 @ MSI)
Total: $1494.86
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-04-14 20:19 EDT-0400
===

I think I'll start with the assassin cooler. As you pointed out i can switch it out in the future if i really think that's necessary.
So far as i can tell the corsair ram is compatible with the GB MB.
I may switch out the RAM in the future if it turns out that the CPU can handle more.
I honestly don't know how important speed will be for my use of the SSD. If i have problems with the blue then i can switch out.
The GPU listed there may be a placeholder. I want something similar; i may or may not go with exactly what's listed.
i know we didn't discuss the case.
I Like it because it has fan spots on bottom, top, front, and rear.
I'm not really sure how to tell whether the PSU is appropriate or overkill. I went with a slightly more expensive version than the minimum cost so that i could upgrade from bronze to gold.

Thank you for your input.
Feel free to make any more comments.

 

[35below0]

I know gaming isn't a concern for you, and that's good because it keeps the costs down a little.

That said, the 3060 may not be a great choice. It's pretty weak and kinda expensive when 4060's start at just $10-30 more. Like this PNY 4060: https://pcpartpicker.com/product/qnGhP6/pny-verto-geforce-rtx-4060-8-gb-video-card-vcg40608dfxpb1
The 4060 is no great shakes at gaming either, but it should be better for AI related work. Won't kill your budget either. Next year the 50XX series will offer new options so you may think about an upgrade.
The 3060 does have more VRAM but i think that will not be useful to you.

The PSU is ok, but maybe this would be even better:
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/Yp...ertified-fully-modular-atx-power-supply-bn504

I did not challenge your case pick because it's best if it's your call. You will look at it. Also i don't know any case that has very little plastic or such. Maybe the FD North? It's metal ...and wood. (i do like it, but it's hit or miss. and expensive)

Also, don't know if you missed it but i edited my post above to add that the Scythe Mugen is offset and has no RAM clearance issues. That and being quiet are reasons i picked it.
Peerless Assassin is a very good cooler so no complaints there.

 

[thill3]

Like this PNY 4060: https://pcpartpicker.com/product/qnGhP6/pny-verto-geforce-rtx-4060-8-gb-video-card-vcg40608dfxpb1
The 4060 is no great shakes at gaming either, but it should be better for AI related work.

That 4060 has a higher speed and less VRAM. According to some of my reading it is the case that more GPU memory is preferred for the kind of work i want to do because of everything that needs to be held in memory to do the calculations.
The only GPUs at my price point with 12GB of VRAM are 3060s. I am certainly open to other options though. PPP's offerings with 16GB start at 510 Dollars (230 Dollars more than the 3060 12GB).

The PSU is ok, but maybe this would be even better:
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/Yp...ertified-fully-modular-atx-power-supply-bn504

That PSU has the same 80+ gold rating and less power supplied (750 vs 850). It is 20 dollars cheaper though, so perhaps i should run calcs on power usage again.

i don't know any case that has very little plastic or such.

I'm getting that impression. I figured it was worth looking. Turns out that a case with reasonable price and quality that also has fan spots on bottom, top, rear, and front is rare.

I appreciate your input.

 

[35below0]

That PSU has the same 80+ gold rating and less power supplied (750 vs 850). It is 20 dollars cheaper though, so perhaps i should run calcs on power usage again.

Oh, i must have linked the wrong one. I thought i was linking the 850w model which has the same price at newegg.
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/4X...ertified-fully-modular-atx-power-supply-bn505

There are reviews of both PSUs

be quiet! Pure Power 12 M 850W PSU Review - Hardware Busters

Hardware Busters - be quiet! Pure Power 12 M 850W PSU Review -

hwbusters.com

MSI MAG A850GL PCIE5 850W PSU Review - Hardware Busters

Hardware Busters - MSI MAG A850GL PCIE5 850W PSU Review - PSUs

hwbusters.com

That 4060 has a higher speed and less VRAM. According to some of my reading it is the case that more GPU memory is preferred for the kind of work i want to do because of everything that needs to be held in memory to do the calculations.
The only GPUs at my price point with 12GB of VRAM are 3060s. I am certainly open to other options though. PPP's offerings with 16GB start at 510 Dollars (230 Dollars more than the 3060 12GB).

Ultimately, neither of them is really good but either could serve as a start. I think you will have better options when the 50XX series rolls out. You think VRAM trumps speed, then go with it.
Interestingly, in Stable diffusion benchmarks the 3060 Ti beats both the 3060 and 4060 yet it too has 8Gb of VRAM. It's in the $500-600 range. I ...wouldn't. But it's something to consider.

The 4070 remains the meaningfull step up from the ~$300 3060 and 4060.

 

[thill3]

Here's the final list of parts.
I made some adjustments based on my budget and potential use. With all the parts (including a 3060 12gb and six case fans) i was going to be paying well over 1600 dollars before tax and shipping. The changes got me down to a bit over 1500 after shipping and tax.
1. I was originally going to go with the gigabyte mb. I switched to the msi mb because it has six plugs for case fans and the gigabyte mb only had three. Having all those case fans was the main reason i choose my case in the first place.
2. I dropped one of the sets of RAM. This saved me 194 dollars straight up. I figured that 64GB should be a good start, and i can upgrade later.
3. I saved about 30 dollars by going with three extra case fans instead of the six i had originally planned.
4. I bought a used 3060 12gb on ebay. Came out 20 dollars cheaper after shipping and tax than the base price on newegg.

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/FxKgjH

CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 7900 3.6 GHz 12-Core Processor ($399.00 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 SE 66.17 CFM CPU Cooler ($33.90 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: MSI MAG B650 TOMAHAWK WIFI ATX AM5 Motherboard ($199.99 @ Amazon)
Memory: Crucial CT2K32G52C42U5 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-5200 CL42 Memory ($193.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Western Digital Blue SN580 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive ($108.99 @ Newegg)
Case: NZXT H6 Flow ATX Mid Tower Case ($100.98 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: be quiet! Pure Power 12 M 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply ($109.90 @ Amazon)
Case Fan: be quiet! Pure Wings 2 61.2 CFM 140 mm Fan ($9.90 @ Amazon)
Case Fan: ARCTIC P12 56.3 CFM 120 mm Fan ($8.99 @ Amazon)
Case Fan: ARCTIC P12 56.3 CFM 120 mm Fan ($8.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $1174.63
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2024-04-21 10:05 EDT-0400