Dungeons and Dragons online

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Turbine + mmorpg * 1999 = Asheron's Call = happy Grackle

and so it follows from the above that

Turbine + mmorpg * 2005 = Dungeon's and Dragons Online = ecstatic Grackle


The screenshots are very impressive. I still consider AC (my first exposure
to mmorpgs) the best one so far. I'm looking forward to DDO.
 
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On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:48:10 -0400, "Grackle" <nobody@lalaland.ca>
wrote:

>Turbine + mmorpg * 1999 = Asheron's Call = happy Grackle
>
>and so it follows from the above that
>
>Turbine + mmorpg * 2005 = Dungeon's and Dragons Online = ecstatic Grackle
>
>
>The screenshots are very impressive. I still consider AC (my first exposure
>to mmorpgs) the best one so far. I'm looking forward to DDO.
>
Sounds like fun - but then, they ALL do. :)

I'll probably get it, and try the first month, see how it goes.

I like how they treat rogues, but am not sure about the lack of
high-end solo content.

We'll see - sounds like the beta isn't too far off. Fingers crossed
for another Fileplanet exclusive, as I've had luck with them in the
past.

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I like several things about the game but don't like some others.
The one thing I'm really liking is the 'no exp for killing monsters'.
Finally a MMORPG where camping/grinding shouldn't be there at all.
I don't like them going real time action twitch based combat, but I'll
have to test it before I can really comment on that.
 
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Actually I didn't like AC1 either. So far for me it's been Turbine 0/2.
Maybe third time's the charm
 

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On 2005-04-03, Grackle <nobody@lalaland.ca> wrote:
> Turbine + mmorpg * 1999 = Asheron's Call = happy Grackle
>
> and so it follows from the above that
>
> Turbine + mmorpg * 2005 = Dungeon's and Dragons Online = ecstatic Grackle

They screwed up AC2 big time.
 
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well of course if they are stupid enough to make all quests 'hack and
slash' then they didn't accomplish anything.
Basically, (and just like in D&D) you really don't get exp by killing
monsters, but by 'overcoming obstacles'. Basically, in 3rd edition, if
you need to get from point A to point B and there's a big troll in the
middle, you get the same exp if:
- You kill the troll
- You summon a kobold and make it taunt the troll into chasing him
while you cross
- You use a scroll of fly
- You pay the troll to let you pass
This is the idea they're implementing. How will they pull it off? I
don't know for sure, that's why I want to see it in action, but you can
be sure that camping a spot to kill the same mobs over and over *cough
EQ cough* will not be there, at least not for exp
 
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>>I don't like them going real time action twitch based combat, but
I'll
>>have to test it before I can really comment on that.

> It doesn't have to be any more twich based than NWN, which used 6
>second rounds

It doesn't have to be, but that's not what they decided. They're
making it twitch based, basically you can move in and out of combat and
make the opponent miss if you're not there. That's the part I don't
like, a hit or miss following D&D rules should depend entirely on your
character's abilities, not yours. But let's see how it goes.
 
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wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:

>>>I don't like them going real time action twitch based combat, but
>
> I'll
>
>>>have to test it before I can really comment on that.
>
>
>> It doesn't have to be any more twich based than NWN, which used 6
>>second rounds
>
>
> It doesn't have to be, but that's not what they decided. They're
> making it twitch based, basically you can move in and out of combat and
> make the opponent miss if you're not there. That's the part I don't
> like, a hit or miss following D&D rules should depend entirely on your
> character's abilities, not yours. But let's see how it goes.

If they factor in AC and player ability, perhaps it could be done.
Gothic did it pretty well (although it was a little on the twitchy
side), but I can see it being really screwed up.
 
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On 4 Apr 2005 07:18:23 -0700, wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:

>I like several things about the game but don't like some others.
>The one thing I'm really liking is the 'no exp for killing monsters'.
>Finally a MMORPG where camping/grinding shouldn't be there at all.

What makes you say that? Instead of gridning through monsters one
at a time you just grind them in groups to get your "quest" xp. Sure
they'll spout a lot of about being able to sneak or talk your way
though some encounters but there won't be anyone completing quests
without a significant amount of hack and slash, it would be too
unbalanced otherwise.

>I don't like them going real time action twitch based combat, but I'll
>have to test it before I can really comment on that.

It doesn't have to be any more twich based than NWN, which used 6
second rounds.

--
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of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
 

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Thus spake Mark Morrison <drdpikeuk@aol.com>, Sun, 03 Apr 2005 23:46:10
+0100, Anno Domini:

>On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:48:10 -0400, "Grackle" <nobody@lalaland.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>Turbine + mmorpg * 1999 = Asheron's Call = happy Grackle
>>
>>and so it follows from the above that
>>
>>Turbine + mmorpg * 2005 = Dungeon's and Dragons Online = ecstatic Grackle
>>
>>
>>The screenshots are very impressive. I still consider AC (my first exposure
>>to mmorpgs) the best one so far. I'm looking forward to DDO.
>>
>Sounds like fun - but then, they ALL do. :)
>
>I'll probably get it, and try the first month, see how it goes.
>
>I like how they treat rogues, but am not sure about the lack of
>high-end solo content.
>
>We'll see - sounds like the beta isn't too far off. Fingers crossed
>for another Fileplanet exclusive, as I've had luck with them in the
>past.

What can a D&D mmorpg possibly offer that NWN hasn't tried already? I mean,
what's the incentive in having a whole lot of l33t boyz running around with
you compared to loss of cohesive storyline & complex quest structures? :-/

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Well, the part about it not really being D&D can't be argued. Besides
the changes to combat there will be changes to the magic system (I
seriously doubt that a level 1 wizard will only have two first level
spells available for the whole day). The end result will be a game
that uses D&D licensed terms for classes, items, monsters, etc but is
not D&D. Whether the game is good or not, and only time will tell us
this, the fact that it is not really D&D is going to drive off those
players who link how well a MMOG follows the PnP rules to how much they
enjoy the MMOG.
 
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On 4 Apr 2005 07:18:23 -0700, wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:

>I like several things about the game but don't like some others.
>The one thing I'm really liking is the 'no exp for killing monsters'.
>Finally a MMORPG where camping/grinding shouldn't be there at all.
>I don't like them going real time action twitch based combat, but I'll
>have to test it before I can really comment on that.

How do you gain XP then? I thought they were implementing 3ed rules
where monsters also have levels so the XP reward is based on that.

Lynley
 

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On 2005-04-04, Lynley James <lynley.james@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4 Apr 2005 07:18:23 -0700, wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>I like several things about the game but don't like some others.
>>The one thing I'm really liking is the 'no exp for killing monsters'.
>>Finally a MMORPG where camping/grinding shouldn't be there at all.
>>I don't like them going real time action twitch based combat, but I'll
>>have to test it before I can really comment on that.
>
> How do you gain XP then? I thought they were implementing 3ed rules
> where monsters also have levels so the XP reward is based on that.

I think like VTM: Bloodlines. You get XP by completing quests.
 
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shadows wrote:
> On 2005-04-04, Lynley James <lynley.james@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On 4 Apr 2005 07:18:23 -0700, wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I like several things about the game but don't like some others.
>>>The one thing I'm really liking is the 'no exp for killing monsters'.
>>>Finally a MMORPG where camping/grinding shouldn't be there at all.
>>>I don't like them going real time action twitch based combat, but I'll
>>>have to test it before I can really comment on that.
>>
>>How do you gain XP then? I thought they were implementing 3ed rules
>>where monsters also have levels so the XP reward is based on that.
>
>
> I think like VTM: Bloodlines. You get XP by completing quests.

While that was interesting, it also "forced*" some side quests on you
that you might not do (if you are role playing). I found that to be
somewhat annoying and frustrating.

*If you wanted enough XP to actually fight the boss(es) at the end.
 
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"shadows" <shadows@whitefang.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd52r84.1eeb.shadows@helena.whitefang.com...
> On 2005-04-03, Grackle <nobody@lalaland.ca> wrote:
>> Turbine + mmorpg * 1999 = Asheron's Call = happy Grackle
>>
>> and so it follows from the above that
>>
>> Turbine + mmorpg * 2005 = Dungeon's and Dragons Online = ecstatic Grackle
>
> They screwed up AC2 big time.

They screwed it like a $2 crack whore.
But AC1 I loved, having nothing else to compare it with at the time.
Technically, I can't remember any problems with the game or their servers.
Having Microsoft to back them helped a lot, I'm sure.
 
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On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:09:36 +1000, Nostromo
<nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:

>What can a D&D mmorpg possibly offer that NWN hasn't tried already?

A decent game out of the box, without waiting for third party missions
?

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They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses !
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What do they need such good eyesight for anyway ?
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On 4 Apr 2005 11:41:03 -0700, wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:

>>>I don't like them going real time action twitch based combat, but
>I'll
>>>have to test it before I can really comment on that.
>
>> It doesn't have to be any more twich based than NWN, which used 6
>>second rounds
>
>It doesn't have to be, but that's not what they decided. They're
>making it twitch based, basically you can move in and out of combat and
>make the opponent miss if you're not there.

So it's not D&D at all then, just a lame RPG using the D&D license.
I'll give it a pass then.

--
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of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft
 
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"Johnny Bravo" <baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fri3519sjfea9olg78su7e51vcgfs6qdem@4ax.com...
> On 4 Apr 2005 11:41:03 -0700, wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>>>I don't like them going real time action twitch based combat, but
>>I'll
>>>>have to test it before I can really comment on that.
>>
>>> It doesn't have to be any more twich based than NWN, which used 6
>>>second rounds
>>
>>It doesn't have to be, but that's not what they decided. They're
>>making it twitch based, basically you can move in and out of combat and
>>make the opponent miss if you're not there.
>
> So it's not D&D at all then, just a lame RPG using the D&D license.
> I'll give it a pass then.
>

Wow, such foresight, can I have next week's lottery numbers too?
 
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>Basically, in 3rd edition, if
> you need to get from point A to point B and there's a big
> troll in the middle, you get the same exp if:
> - You kill the troll
> - You summon a kobold and make it taunt the troll into
> chasing him while you cross
> - You use a scroll of fly
> - You pay the troll to let you pass
> This is the idea they're implementing.


Problem solving in an MMOG?? What fun is that??
See monster, kill monster! That's the name of the game!

-st
 
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The problem D&DO will have is, basically, people thinking of it as a
MMORPG instead of D&D. People will want uber stuff, people will want
crafting, PvP, they'll want to carry 100000 gold pieces and 8 backpacks
full of armor and weapons. D&D has clear rules about that, a frail
mage can carry about 40 pounds, about the weight of one single two
handed sword. Will D&DO change D&D rules to go the MMORPG way?
Without dying, will people loose CON every time they're defeated? will
they loose levels?
What happens if there's PvP? Will a lucky lvl 1 mage be able to charm
a lvl 14 fighter?

So D&DO devs have a really tough road ahead, that of trying to make D&D
followers happy and trying to make MMORPG followers happy too, almost a
no win situation
 
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wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:

> The problem D&DO will have is, basically, people thinking of it as a
> MMORPG instead of D&D. People will want uber stuff, people will want
> crafting, PvP, they'll want to carry 100000 gold pieces and 8 backpacks
> full of armor and weapons. D&D has clear rules about that, a frail
> mage can carry about 40 pounds, about the weight of one single two
> handed sword. Will D&DO change D&D rules to go the MMORPG way?
> Without dying, will people loose CON every time they're defeated? will
> they loose levels?
> What happens if there's PvP? Will a lucky lvl 1 mage be able to charm
> a lvl 14 fighter?

The problem is that in D&D a mage after about level 12 you are so uber
that nothing can touch you.

A fighter maxes out about level 8 and a Ranger/Cleric is uber at 10 or
12. There are far too many classes that can make an uber character very
quickly.

> So D&DO devs have a really tough road ahead, that of trying to make D&D
> followers happy and trying to make MMORPG followers happy too, almost a
> no win situation

I think this will be a poor choice for a game. The casual game will not
be able to keep up and the phat loot means that everyone will have a
+289057475 Holy Avenger by the end of the first month.
 
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"Alex Mars" <alexmars@aol.com> wrote in news:1112667401.379503.87020
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> Well, the part about it not really being D&D can't be argued. Besides
> the changes to combat there will be changes to the magic system (I
> seriously doubt that a level 1 wizard will only have two first level
> spells available for the whole day). The end result will be a game
> that uses D&D licensed terms for classes, items, monsters, etc but is
> not D&D. Whether the game is good or not, and only time will tell us
> this, the fact that it is not really D&D is going to drive off those
> players who link how well a MMOG follows the PnP rules to how much they
> enjoy the MMOG.

The changes to the magic system being used were necessary. There are some
basic assumptions in PnP D&D that are just *not* compatible with making a
MMORPG. The magic system is one of those. In PnP D&D, a party is expected
to rest every 3 or 4 encounters. Due to the fact that encounters,
travelling and numerous other things are resolved *much* faster on a
computer than it would be with PnP, it is not possinle to leave it the
same.

More detail can be seen here:
http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=84


--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
 

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Thus spake Mark Morrison <drdpikeuk@aol.com>, Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:29:45
+0100, Anno Domini:

>On Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:09:36 +1000, Nostromo
><nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:
>
>>What can a D&D mmorpg possibly offer that NWN hasn't tried already?
>
>A decent game out of the box, without waiting for third party missions
>?

Well, the wait was all of a month initially, & now it's not an issue. Don't
get me wrong, I just can't warm to NWN even though I 'struggled' through 2
chapters of the OC. I got HotU & played it for all of a half hour before it
fell by the wayside. There's just something 'dead' or sanitised about the
engine & game world that leaves me dry...now BG2 I can (re)play till the
cows come home!
Anyway, NWN was mentioned just to illustrate the point, not start a debate.
There have been a few persistent worlds that have also been set up that
worked reasonably well for under 100 players, given the engine was never
really designed nor optimised to take more than about 32(?)...

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Reddogfive wrote:

>I think the name is the only thing that D&D Online will have in common with
>the RPG.
>
>

I ran D&D for 25 years, and had a really fanatical following of
players. When NWN came out I tried replicating the campaign and found
it just didn't work. They are not at all the same. D&DOL will likely
be no different in that respect.

To be what we gamemasters want it would have to ignore being playable in
single player or even persistant world. It would have to be a tool for
the GM, including all the spells and abilities that only a GM can
adjudicate. It would have to give total power to the GM. NWN falls way
short of that. I haven't even looked at D&DOL because I cannot imagine
it doing any better. Am I wrong?

>Is this a bad thing? Not if its a good game.
>
>Will it be a good game?
>
>

I doubt it. Every attempt to bring D&D to the computer has failed. I
designed one back in the 80's, and found myself having to depart majorly
from what made D&D what it was. Keep in mind, D&D is not so much a game
system as a way for people to interact. When they go programming it
they always focus on the game system, and ignore people interacting.
That is where they fail, and they don't even have the wit to ask about that.
 
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On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:33:07 -0400, "Grackle" <nobody@lalaland.ca> wrote:

>"Johnny Bravo" <baawa_knight@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:fri3519sjfea9olg78su7e51vcgfs6qdem@4ax.com...
>> On 4 Apr 2005 11:41:03 -0700, wolfing1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>I don't like them going real time action twitch based combat, but
>>>I'll
>>>>>have to test it before I can really comment on that.
>>>
>>>> It doesn't have to be any more twich based than NWN, which used 6
>>>>second rounds
>>>
>>>It doesn't have to be, but that's not what they decided. They're
>>>making it twitch based, basically you can move in and out of combat and
>>>make the opponent miss if you're not there.
>>
>> So it's not D&D at all then, just a lame RPG using the D&D license.
>> I'll give it a pass then.
>>
>
>Wow, such foresight, can I have next week's lottery numbers too?

Maybe so but I'd put money on him being right!