Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (
More info?)
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Patrick,
>
> You may think me stupid enough not to catch the gist of your implied
> insults, even when I am working at 4 AM and stealing valuable sleep
> time to respond to you, but you'd be wrong.
Because you choose to answer do you think any one gives a damn if you
miss sleeping. That is your choiced pal. Now you sound like the holy one.
>
> > Another example of slight of hand to mislead is the above five
> paragraghs.
> > My op linked directly to the dye vs pigment section and the title of
> my post
> > reflected that section. Yet the first half of your post is with
> regards to
> > other sections not referenced by myself.
> >
>
>
> Hardly, I address numerous examples of the problems with the Lyson
> article. You gave a url, you did not indicate anyone should only read
> certain sentences of it. The whole article uses the same technique
> throughout. The Lyson article plays games I am not interested in
> playing, and I'm even less interested in continuing wasting my time
> with playing them with you, so this will be my late exchange with you
> about it. Anyone who has a bit of wordsmithing ability can make a
> bold and outrageous statement and then qualify it in the next dozen
> sentences to a mere shadow of the original intent, in the hopes most
> people will not read carefully enough to recognize the technique.
>
> The Lyson article starts each section with a statement and then uses a
> bunch of contradictory statements to "qualify" the original to the
> point where it has little to no import at all.
>
> I have just written a small piece using the same technique:
>
> ======================
>
> Everyone who lives in Florida knows you had better be prepared because
> it snows like heck there! Citrus crops freeze, ponds freeze over,
> water pipes can burst, and the roads become slick and dangerous,
> especially with their elderly population who have a hard time driving
> during better weather. You'd wish more people used snow tires and
> chains on those days.
>
> The median temperature in Florida is around 65 degrees F year round,
> and they can have days, sometimes even occasionally weeks, where it
> goes over 100. But those are not very common except during the peak
> of summer. It's winter when those snow and ice days show up and do
> their damage, so watch out!
>
> ====================
>
> I didn't check the median temperature in Florida, because I don't have
> the time, so it might be slightly off. However, the statements are
> otherwise all true about Florida. You can quote each one and it would
> be correct. HOWEVER, Patrick, they leave a completely bogus
> impression about the weather in Florida, because they start with an
> opening statement that, although true, requires huge qualifiers that
> aren't provided until later on and only in vague and intentionally
> limited fashion. The type of snowstorm this describes has occurred in
> Florida, what, perhaps 3 times in the last 25 years, if that.
>
> Lastly, you may have provided the link to the article in question in
> regard to the dye versus pigment debate, but the article doesn't
> honestly answer that debate either, because it is craftily biased, and
> is misleading, and as such it required additional qualifiers, some of
> which I have provided. You brought up the article, not me. I've put
> more time into discussing it than you have. Selective quoting is
> meaningless in an article written in the manner that one has been. It
> is the analysis of the information which makes or breaks it. It's
> broken.
>
> Art
>
>
>
> Patrick wrote:
>
>>>>> I found the Lyson article to have a bias built into it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Biased perhaps - but was there any mis-information as to quote from
>>>> your
>>>> first reply infers;
>>>> "I don't know what Mr. Lyson was partaking of when he wrote that
>>>> article
>>>
>>
>> "
>>
>>> Creo's website is current, and I used it as my reference. My previous
>>> knowledge of Iris ink sets, plus the current Creo website information
>>> led me to the conclusion that the article in question was biased.
>>
>>
>>
>> So Iris have managed to reduce their fade resistance?
>>
>>
>>> Sometimes misinformation is the direct result of slight of hand. As an
>>> example, he spends a long paragraph speaking about a photographer who
>>> printed a test pattern with a pigment colorant ink set, who then ???put
>>> the inks away for a year??? and then upon reprinting the same chart
>>> found it to be considerably lacking in color. This is an absurd claim.
>>> No one does this, and all pigment inks indicate they should be
>>> agitated before use. He then indicates the same photographer agitated
>>> the inks and got back 90% of the density (of course he did!). Worse
>>> still he indicates that today's pigment inks have much better
>>> suspension
>>> characteristics (up to 18 months), so what was the point of that. How
>>> long ago was that article written and how long ago was that pigment ink
>>> "experiment". Just how long a lifespan does Lyson place on there own
>>> inks (dye or Pigment, for that matter?) As I recall they have a rather
>>> short shelf life.
>>>
>>> That whole section of the article while possibly factually correct, has
>>> only one intent, and that is to mislead.
>>>
>>> In another section, he claims that it is a myth that pigment colorant
>>> inks clog more often than dye do, and in cases that they do, it is
>>> because of badly formulated inks. He also claims the reason for
>>> this is
>>> that the size of the pigment particles are too small to clog the nozzle
>>> or jet.
>>>
>>> What actually causes clogs on most printers is a build up of ink
>>> residue. Depending upon the head design, this can manifest in
>>> different
>>> ways, such as cone formation around the jet or nozzle that slowly
>>> narrows the jet, nozzle deflection, by build up on one side to the
>>> nozzle, or just general build up under the head. While dye inks do
>>> indeed redissolve in the ink still left in the head/cartridge, even
>>> that
>>> can and does eventually become to thick to get self cleaned. But with
>>> pigment inks, the residue becomes caked and is not easily dissolvable,
>>> due to both the pigment itself and the carriers used, which differ form
>>> dye inks. There is a reason some printers do not use pigment colorant
>>> inks at all, because they do tend to be harder to keep flowing.
>>>
>>> In fact, when reading over his section about this, he actually
>>> contradicts himself, fist claiming pigment inks are no more likely to
>>> clog a head than dye, but later in the same section he admits pigment
>>> inks are more difficult to redissolve.
>>
>>
>>
>> Another example of slight of hand to mislead is the above five
>> paragraghs.
>> My op linked directly to the dye vs pigment section and the title of
>> my post
>> reflected that section. Yet the first half of your post is with
>> regards to
>> other sections not referenced by myself.
>>
>>
>>> Probably the most questionable section is the area about Dye versus
>>> Pigment inks. In fact, I would go as far as suggesting he uses some
>>> very intentional word smithing to mislead the reader. Firstly, only
>>> some
>>> Iris inks have reasonable longevity claims, and only when used with
>>> certain papers.
>>
>>
>>
>> He states that;
>> "It's worth noting that many fine art reproduction houses use Iris
>> inkjet
>> printers to produce "Giclee" prints, which are renowned for their
>> longevity.
>> All Iris printers use dyebased inks."
>>
>> I've looked - and he's right - a many do atleast I presume they do - as
>> there is a website discussing their use in fine art.
>>
>>
>>> On the other hand, in the case of most pigment inks
>>> almost the opposite exists, you have to go out of your way to find
>>> papers that make them less fade resistant than most dye inks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Again from the article;
>> "It's true that pigments generally are more fade-resistant,
>> particularly
>> for outdoor exposure where the intensity and type of light is very
>> different
>> than artificial illumination.
>> It looks like he agrees with you.
>>
>> > also say that Iris dye inks are less "renowned" for their
>> longevity that
>>
>>> most pigment inks. Iris has indeed built a niche market for high color
>>> gamut prints, but left many artists in the lurch when their older inks
>>> did not prove to be as light stable as originally claimed or expected.
>>
>>
>>
>> From WIR;
>> "Iris machines, which can print images as large as 34X46 inches, were
>> designed for direct digital proofing, making comps, and technical
>> applications. These of course are throw-away things, not photographs or
>> works of art. The initial inksets provided by Iris Graphic were never
>> intended for making prints to be matted, framed, and displayed."
>>
>>
>>
>>> I recall Iris having numerous failed ink sets (especially the yellow
>>> and
>>> magenta inks) along the way, which were supposed to be stable.
>>
>>
>>
>> I recall reading somewhere that Epson had problems with some of their
>> ink.
>>
>>
>>> Further, great strides have occurred in pigment particles and how they
>>> lay on paper, and the gamut differences have been bridged for the most
>>
>>
>> part.
>>
>> to quote again;
>> " The latest pigment preparation technology improves the color
>> quality by
>> grinding the particles to the smallest possible size and using resins to
>> coat the particles, which helps smooth out the rough surface."
>> You and Mr Lyson agree again.
>>
>>
>>> His section on warranties and 3rd part inks, IMHO, stinks, but is
>>> structured similarly to the rest of the article. On the one hand he
>>> implies that the law protects you for being refused warranty
>>> coverage if
>>> you use 3rd party inks, and that the ink jet printer company must prove
>>> that non-OEM inks caused the damage, and then just two sentences later
>>> he suggests always keeping a set of OEM inks on hand to place in your
>>> printer to fool the repair and warranty people. That shows how much he
>>> relies upon the law for protection, when he suggests you use deceit.
>>
>>
>>
>> Or does it suggest that the printer makers will try to avoid their legal
>> obligations and to avoid any such sittuations place OEM cartridges in
>> the
>> printer.
>>
>>
>>> Regarding your experiences with framed color photo prints, no one uses
>>> color photography as the bellweather for permanence. It has always
>>> been
>>> considered a transient medium. Black and white is another matter
>>> entirely. In color, oil paints or even some watercolor were considered
>>> a more reasonable goal to strive for.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fair comment. I used it to illustrate 'Client expectations'
>>
>>
>>> And no, I was not referring to OEM/manufacturers when I stated that
>>> newer improved and longer lasting dye inks were coming, along with new
>>> paper technologies. Better dyes are coming.
>>
>>
>>
>> Yep! Better cars, computers, televisions..... When you think about it
>> just
>> about anything you can think of will be improved upon. - I see why
>> you are
>> so good at spotting 'slight of hand' to mislead.
>>
>>
>>
>>> And lastly, that 120 year Iris ink... it's the black only.
>>
>>
>>
>> I appogise for that it was not my intention to mislead. I assumed the
>> 120
>> rating given to the 'Lysonic' inkset was indeed colour as they appear
>> on the
>> same matrix as colour inksets and the Lyson website states their
>> 'Lysonic'
>> ink is colour.
>> So I may continue to learn - can you direct me to the resource that
>> indicates 'Black only'.
>>
>>
>>> Some dye inks, used with the right papers can be used to create long
>>> lasting art.
>>
>>
>>
>> to quote myself;
>> "The 'Don't use dye-based inks for 'keepers' ' without qualification
>> is to
>> spread mis-information."
>>
>> So we agree also.
>>
>> --
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>>
.
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