Early fountain strategy?

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(This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when encountering
a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to quaff, so when do
you do this?
 
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Jym wrote:
> wolverinefan@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > (This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when
encountering
> > a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to quaff, so when
do
> > you do this?
>
> Bad things may occur, good things may occur...

Since the bad things can be fatal to an early character,
all I do very early on is note the level.

> Personally, I quaff from early fountain until I'm sure it's a regular
one
> and not a magic one (either an ability gain or a message different
from
> "refreshing").

Interesting point.

> Once I'm strong enough to handle those mocassin/demon, I dip
aboudantly in
> order to have water or blank paper at need, and to be sure to
"destroy"
> those potentially harmfull potions/scrolls (especially scrolls since
it
> only need one deep and potions may often be alchemized into something
> better).

My lawfull characters I tend to reach level 5 and have a
long sword, then I dip until I get Excalibur or die or run
out of fountains. My other characters I tend to save
fountains until I've finished mines-end, sokoban plus my
first altar camp-out and sacrafice fest. Since I tend to
leave that altar crowned (my sign that it is time to move
on but I'm aware this is a minority opinion), by then my
character is powerfull enough to handle the mocasins.
 
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On 2005-03-09, wolverinefan@gmail.com <wolverinefan@gmail.com> wrote:
> (This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when encountering
> a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to quaff, so when do
> you do this?

Do it when you are strong enough to take on a water demon/a nymph/a
heard of water moccasins *EASILY*, able to remove curses with relative
ease, are posion resistant,

The only exception I make to this is if Im lawful and trying to get
excalibur-- then Ill risk it earilier.

--
Andrew D. Hilton
UPenn Phd Student
 
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On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 wolverinefan@gmail.com wrote:

> (This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when encountering
> a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to quaff, so when do
> you do this?

Bad things may occur, good things may occur...

Personally, I quaff from early fountain until I'm sure it's a regular one
and not a magic one (either an ability gain or a message different from
"refreshing").

This may be dangerous because of demon/mocassins. But, hey, if your
character cannot handle a single water demon or a few mocassin, then it
probably won't be more than half an hour of play lost. As I'm not
restricted in the number of games I play, I take the risk (and
experimentaly, the risk is quite low, I've not loose so many characters
due to early fountains).

Once I'm strong enough to handle those mocassin/demon, I dip aboudantly in
order to have water or blank paper at need, and to be sure to "destroy"
those potentially harmfull potions/scrolls (especially scrolls since it
only need one deep and potions may often be alchemized into something
better).

But I always start by checking the fountain is not magic, except in case
where water/blank scroll is urgently needed. Plus, doing that in the
very early game too also allow me not to remember which fountains have
been tested. They've all been, no one is still magic, they're main use is
dipping.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
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wolverinefan@gmail.com wrote:

> (This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when
> encountering a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to
> quaff, so when do you do this?

A lot of people, if not most people, keep away from fountains all the
time.

Some others only touch them in the middle game (after finishing either
the Quest or the Castle), or if they desperately need a wish, and don't
feel ready for the Castle yet.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.
 
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In article <Pine.LNX.4.51.0503092102180.25075@hagen.loria.fr>,
Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 wolverinefan@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> (This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when encountering
>> a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to quaff, so when do
>> you do this?

Short answer? You don't

>Bad things may occur, good things may occur...

But the bad things can be very bad.

>Personally, I quaff from early fountain until I'm sure it's a regular one
>and not a magic one (either an ability gain or a message different from
>"refreshing").

Messages like snakes, contaminated water, monster summoning or random
items being cursed? No thanks for me.

SNIPPAGE...

>Once I'm strong enough to handle those mocassin/demon, I dip aboudantly

That probably means that you don't know how to convert fountains into a
permanent safe dipping area. Here's the procedure:

1) Get yourself a pick-axe, broad pick, or wand of digging. The first two
are easy to scare up in the 1st couple of levels of the Mines.

2) Find a fountain that outside of the main path between stairs on a
level.

3) Make sure that your pet isn't in the room. Make sure it's either on
another level or locked up.

4) Use your implement from 1) above to dig into the fountain.

The vast majority of the time the fountain will convert into 1 or more
pools of water. They are permanent. you can jump in with a whole sackful
of potions/scrolls/spellbooks. And the only possible bad side effect is
inadvertent erasure/dilution of good items and rusting of equipment. That's
why you pick a spot that off the beaten path.

I haven't dipped/quaffed in ages. It would be only a despiration measure if
I needed something cursed/uncursed or if I was super ultra despirate for
a wish, of which there is virtually no chance of getting.

Converting to pools is in fact the safest and lost logical action to do
with a fountain.

BAJ
 
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wolverinefan@gmail.com wrote:

> (This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when
> encountering a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to
> quaff, so when do you do this?

I leave them alone until the mid game.(after sokobon and mines end
usually) When i can handle the snakes and demon and have a way to
uncurse my stuff then i scum them all until the castle. I also wait
until my luck is high since i use them mainly for the magic affect
(since !ofGA are rare.) Any wish or enlightenment is gravy.

Only exception is for a lawful with a longsword. Then i dip as soon as
i get to exp level 5.

Jorge
 
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wolverinefan@gmail.com wrote:
> (This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when encountering
> a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to quaff, so when do
> you do this?

Normally I don't quaff, and only dip to
a) uncurse my stuff in the early game (I tend to put on the first
mithril coat/hard hat I see and don't bother with pet-testing).
b) get excalibur as a lawful
c) get a wish in midgame (working upwards from dlvl 13).

Lars
 
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On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, Byron A Jeff wrote:

> In article <Pine.LNX.4.51.0503092102180.25075@hagen.loria.fr>,
> Jym <moyen@loria.fr> wrote:
> >On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 wolverinefan@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> (This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when encountering
> >> a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to quaff, so when do
> >> you do this?
>
> Short answer? You don't
>
> >Bad things may occur, good things may occur...
>
> But the bad things can be very bad.
>
> >Personally, I quaff from early fountain until I'm sure it's a regular
> > one and not a magic one (either an ability gain or a message different
> >from "refreshing").
>
> Messages like snakes, contaminated water, monster summoning or random
> items being cursed? No thanks for me.

I only quaff in the early game, so no cursing. For the rest, well, loosing
1/2h of play is not a big waste (maybe iif I start a huge early game such
as wand of wishing on DL 1 I'll be more careful and won't drink in
fountains). On the other hand, gaining 1 ability point is very valuable,
especially in early game.

Plus I can usually handle mocassins/demon (by running/Elbereth if needed)
quite early, on average, my levels 5 monks manage to survive if they do no
start the fight in too bad shape. Maybe I should develop another strategy
if I played another class.

> >Once I'm strong enough to handle those mocassin/demon, I dip aboudantly
>
> That probably means that you don't know how to convert fountains into a
> permanent safe dipping area. Here's the procedure:

That more likely mean that I was too lazy to remember that... I should
probably do that as I often have trouble to find not dryed fountains in
the eraly mid-game.

> I haven't dipped/quaffed in ages. It would be only a despiration measure if
> I needed something cursed/uncursed or if I was super ultra despirate for
> a wish, of which there is virtually no chance of getting.

I don't count on wishes from fountains (never was in such a desperate
need). Just quaffing for the 1/7 chance of free potion of gain ability.

> Converting to pools is in fact the safest and lost logical action to do
> with a fountain.

I think I'll still start by checking the fountain is not magic.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
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Boudewijn Waijers schrieb:
> wolverinefan@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>(This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when
>>encountering a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to
>>quaff, so when do you do this?
>
>
> A lot of people, if not most people, keep away from fountains all the
> time.
>
> Some others only touch them in the middle game (after finishing either
> the Quest or the Castle), or if they desperately need a wish, and don't
> feel ready for the Castle yet.

I usually don't quaff, but start dipping items when I am strong enough.
I believe that dipping is less dangerous than quaffing - is it
possible at all for your inventory to become cursed on dipping?


--
Klaus Kassner
 
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Klaus Kassner <Klaus.Kassner@physik.uni-magdeburg.de> wrote:
>I usually don't quaff, but start dipping items when I am strong enough.
> I believe that dipping is less dangerous than quaffing - is it
>possible at all for your inventory to become cursed on dipping?

Dipping can curse the dipped item (but is much more likely to uncurse it
if it's already cursed), but cannot cause the 20%-chance-per-item curse
effect, nor can it make you vomit or drain your strength. It can still
give you snakes, demons, or nymphs.

Conversely, it can't give you see invisible or enlighten you, nor can it
score you the gain ability effect of a magic fountain.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
 
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Hi!

I have just a couple of questions regarding fountains:

1) I always thought the most important use of fountains(or water
pools, as stated earlier in this thread) is to dilute useless potions
and make them water, which can be made holy on an altar. Is that not
so? Is there a better way of getting holy water which IS very useful
IMO?

2) how can you identify a fountain being magic?

grateful for answers
 
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Väinämöinen wrote:

> 1) I always thought the most important use of fountains(or water
> pools, as stated earlier in this thread) is to dilute useless potions
> and make them water, which can be made holy on an altar. Is that not
> so? Is there a better way of getting holy water which IS very useful
> IMO?

I like to use fountains for uncursing, but yes, also for diluting potions.
Some people don't use fountains at all for fear of water moccasins and
demons, but I for one don't much mind losing a character in the early
game and in the later game I can stand up to a water demon or a handful
of snakes.

> 2) how can you identify a fountain being magic?

You can't, until you quaff from it and get the effect ("Wow! This makes
you feel great! You feel <attribute>!"). There's no way whatever to know
that in advance.

Raisse, killed by a water moccasin

--
irina@valdyas.org LegoHack: http://www.valdyas.org/irina/nethack/
Status of Raisse (piously neutral): Level 8 HP 63(67) AC -3, fast.
 

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In article <f71a443c.0503120707.2356260e@posting.google.com>,
Väinämöinen <shyaamlaal@yahoo.com> wrote:

>1) I always thought the most important use of fountains(or water
>pools, as stated earlier in this thread) is to dilute useless potions
>and make them water, which can be made holy on an altar. Is that not
>so? Is there a better way of getting holy water which IS very useful
>IMO?

Using fountains for this is terribly limited. But if you pickaxe the
fountain into a pool, you can use the pool forever. But to do that, you
need, e.g. water walking or magical breathing. This is often only
necessary for those potions that don't cancel, since the *best* way to
make blank scrolls and potions is to zap a cancellation spell at them.

>2) how can you identify a fountain being magic?

"A feeling of loss comes over you" (In other words, you can't,
before you make use of it, then it's too late of course.)

Nesta, killed by a water moccasin
% - a piece of food (elf corpse named Nesta)
 
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The Prophet james known to the wise as fishbowl@conservatory.com, opened the Book of Words, and read unto the people:
>In article <f71a443c.0503120707.2356260e@posting.google.com>,
>Väinämöinen <shyaamlaal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>2) how can you identify a fountain being magic?
>
>"A feeling of loss comes over you" (In other words, you can't,
>before you make use of it, then it's too late of course.)

That's not actually true. The only special thing magic fountains do is
increase your stats (or do nothing) when you drink from them, and
that's the only way to recognize them. The "feeling of loss" message
comes from getting the random "uncurse object" effect from #dipping
into a fountain when dipping an already uncursed or blessed
object. This effect occurs with equal probability in magic and
nonmagic fountains.

--
D. Jacob (Jake) Wildstrom, Math monkey and freelance thinker

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
-Alfred Renyi

The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily endorsed by the
University of California or math department thereof.
 
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On Sat, 12 Mar 2005, Raisse the Thaumaturge wrote:

> Väinämöinen wrote:

> > 2) how can you identify a fountain being magic?
>
> You can't, until you quaff from it and get the effect ("Wow! This makes
> you feel great! You feel <attribute>!"). There's no way whatever to know
> that in advance.

If you get a message different from "The cool draught refreshes you", then
the fountain is *not* magic and you can (should) leave it alone. This may
allow you to separate them before being hurt by the too harmfull aspect of
non-magic fountains.

Hypocoristiquement,
Jym.
 
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In article <2eFYd.16785$KK5.9117@fed1read03>,
james <fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote:
>In article <f71a443c.0503120707.2356260e@posting.google.com>,
>Väinämöinen <shyaamlaal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Using fountains for this is terribly limited. But if you pickaxe the
>fountain into a pool, you can use the pool forever. But to do that, you
>need, e.g. water walking or magical breathing.


Just jump into the pool! No water walking or magical breathing necessary.
In fact I find that the items actually get into the way of the objective as
they get you back to either one item, or one turn at a time. Just jumping in
automagically put you out of the pool each turn a diultes/erases each turn.


Just make sure you take off and drop all things metal, because they will rust.


BAJ
 
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begin quoting Byron A Jeff <byron@cc.gatech.edu>:
>james <fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote:
>>Using fountains for this is terribly limited. But if you pickaxe the
>>fountain into a pool, you can use the pool forever. But to do that, you
>>need, e.g. water walking or magical breathing.
>Just jump into the pool! No water walking or magical breathing necessary.

Indeed. If you are not above the weight limit - I simply am always
unburdened, rather than looking up what it is - you will never die doing
this.

>In fact I find that the items actually get into the way of the objective as
>they get you back to either one item, or one turn at a time. Just jumping in
>automagically put you out of the pool each turn a diultes/erases each turn.

On the other hand, with maximised luck, jumping in can take a very long
time to affect every item. Also once you have the ability to
emergency-teleport, you can't jump in.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is First Leicesterday, March.
 
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In article <i-q*8JCJq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>begin quoting Byron A Jeff <byron@cc.gatech.edu>:
>>james <fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote:
>>>Using fountains for this is terribly limited. But if you pickaxe the
>>>fountain into a pool, you can use the pool forever. But to do that, you
>>>need, e.g. water walking or magical breathing.
>>Just jump into the pool! No water walking or magical breathing necessary.
>Indeed. If you are not above the weight limit - I simply am always
>unburdened, rather than looking up what it is - you will never die doing
>this.

Stressed or above causes problems. Since I almost always strip naked, it
never occured to me that weight was an issue.

I also get stressed to overtaxed in a game under some very controlled
conditions. Jumping into a pool isn't one of them.


>>In fact I find that the items actually get into the way of the objective as
>>they get you back to either one item, or one turn at a time. Just jumping in
>>automagically put you out of the pool each turn a diultes/erases each turn.
>On the other hand, with maximised luck, jumping in can take a very long
>time to affect every item. Also once you have the ability to
>emergency-teleport, you can't jump in.

Both true. It's the one place where having teleport at will is actually
an issue.



BAJ
 
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David Damerell wrote:
> begin quoting Byron A Jeff <byron@cc.gatech.edu>:
>>
>>Just jump into the pool! No water walking or magical breathing necessary.
>
> Indeed. If you are not above the weight limit - I simply am always
> unburdened, rather than looking up what it is - you will never die doing
> this.

Can you die? I remember to have been stressed (or strained; don't remember)
and the effect was that I lost my gear. It was a pain to get it back (don't
tell me I know the methods to do so), mainly because necessary items have
been in my bag (which was lying in the pool) and autopickup did not work.

Janis
 
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David Damerell wrote:

> begin quoting Byron A Jeff <byron@cc.gatech.edu>:
>>james <fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote:
>>>Using fountains for this is terribly limited. But if you pickaxe
>>>the
>>>fountain into a pool, you can use the pool forever. But to do
>>>that, you need, e.g. water walking or magical breathing.
>>Just jump into the pool! No water walking or magical breathing
>>necessary.
>


> On the other hand, with maximised luck, jumping in can take a very
> long time to affect every item. Also once you have the ability to
> emergency-teleport, you can't jump in.

Sure you can, you just have to get rid of your spellpoints first. I
just did that in mine town with a valk. I admit though, i only have
50 SP so that wasn't too hard.
 
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Quoting Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>begin quoting Byron A Jeff <byron@cc.gatech.edu>:
>>>Just jump into the pool! No water walking or magical breathing necessary.
>>Indeed. If you are not above the weight limit - I simply am always
>>unburdened, rather than looking up what it is - you will never die doing
>>this.
>Can you die?

Cursed armour/weapons can't be dropped, and some types of armour are
inherently prohibited from being dropped. If the weight of these alone
puts you over the limit, you will drown.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Brieday, March.
 
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David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com>:
>>David Damerell wrote:
>>>begin quoting Byron A Jeff <byron@cc.gatech.edu>:
>>>
>>>>Just jump into the pool! No water walking or magical breathing necessary.
>>>
>>>Indeed. If you are not above the weight limit - I simply am always
>>>unburdened, rather than looking up what it is - you will never die doing
>>>this.
>>
>>Can you die?
>
> Cursed armour/weapons can't be dropped, and some types of armour are
> inherently prohibited from being dropped. If the weight of these alone
> puts you over the limit, you will drown.

If I interpret that correctly that must be only the case if you have
(e.g.) very heavy plate mail armor and are very low at strength?

<quick wizmode check>

Hmm.. I tried it with heavy dwarven armor and a cursed mattock at St:3;
I survived. I added rocks up to the carrying limit; I survived. I added
a cursed loadstone; I died.

Janis
 
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Quoting Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>Quoting Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com>:
[jumping into pools]
>>>Can you die?
>>Cursed armour/weapons can't be dropped, and some types of armour are
>>inherently prohibited from being dropped. If the weight of these alone
>>puts you over the limit, you will drown.
>If I interpret that correctly that must be only the case if you have
>(e.g.) very heavy plate mail armor and are very low at strength?

Well, you certainly have to work at it. Being punished helps a lot. But my
reply just means "it is theoretically possible to die".

In practice, of course, without WW or MB you don't want to drop stuff
at all.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is First Gouday, March.
 
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In article <slrnd2ulk6.jdl.adhilton@phoenix.adhilton.homelinux.com>,
Andrew D. Hilton <adhilton@seas.upenn.edu> wrote:
>On 2005-03-09, wolverinefan@gmail.com <wolverinefan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> (This question from a newbie) What do you do early on when encountering
>> a fountain? I am afraid to dip something, afraid to quaff, so when do
>> you do this?
>
>Do it when you are strong enough to take on a water demon/a nymph/a
>heard of water moccasins *EASILY*, able to remove curses with relative
>ease, are posion resistant,
>
>The only exception I make to this is if Im lawful and trying to get
>excalibur-- then Ill risk it earilier.

The first room. I feel obligated to quaff from any starting fountain .
.. .

hawk
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