Emblazoned Golem

[peter]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Okay, wait, does THIS actually work too?

Mycosynth Golem gives Emblazoned Golem affinity for artifacts.
Emblazoned Golem says you can't spend colorless mana on X—but you can
reduce the cost of X as much as you want. Nothing limits this X to
being 5 or less. So if you have 10 artifacts in play (including
Mycosynth Golem) when you play Emblazoned Golem, its total cost is
reduced by 10. If you say you want the kicker to be 8, its total cost
is 10, affinity makes it cost 10 - 10 = 0, and you get a free 9/10
creature.


Is kicker included in cost reduction? Or is it a separate cost?

Does this mean I could put out a super-huge Shifting Wall too?

***
Emblazoned Golem {2}
Artifact Creature -- Golem 1/2
Apocalypse Uncommon
- Kicker {X} (You may pay an additional {X} as you play this spell.)
- Spend only colored mana on X. No more than one mana of each color
may be spent this way.
- If the kicker cost was paid, Emblazoned Golem comes into play with X
+1/+1 counters on it.
***
Mycosynth Golem {11}
Artifact Creature -- Golem 4/5
Fifth Dawn Rare
- Affinity for artifacts (This spell costs {1} less to play for each
artifact you control.)
- Artifact creature spells you play have affinity for artifacts. (They
cost {1} less to play for each artifact you control.)
***
Shifting Wall {X}
Artifact Creature -- Wall 0/0
Stronghold Uncommon
- (Walls can't attack.)
- Shifting Wall comes into play with X +1/+1 counters on it.
***

Peter

 

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Peter <knucklehead000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Okay, wait, does THIS actually work too?
>
> Mycosynth Golem gives Emblazoned Golem affinity for artifacts.
> Emblazoned Golem says you can't spend colorless mana on X--but you can
> reduce the cost of X as much as you want. Nothing limits this X to
> being 5 or less. So if you have 10 artifacts in play (including
> Mycosynth Golem) when you play Emblazoned Golem, its total cost is
> reduced by 10. If you say you want the kicker to be 8, its total cost
> is 10, affinity makes it cost 10 - 10 = 0, and you get a free 9/10
> creature.
>
>
> Is kicker included in cost reduction? Or is it a separate cost?

409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability.
Usually this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for
abilities). Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their
text, and some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay. Costs may
include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents,
discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation
cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all cost
reductions. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes "locked in."
If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no
effect.

Any cost reduction is applied to the TOTAL cost. This includes any
kicker.

> Does this mean I could put out a super-huge Shifting Wall too?

Certainly.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Peter, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Okay, wait, does THIS actually work too?
>
> Mycosynth Golem gives Emblazoned Golem affinity for artifacts.
> Emblazoned Golem says you can't spend colorless mana on X—but you can
> reduce the cost of X as much as you want. Nothing limits this X to
> being 5 or less. So if you have 10 artifacts in play (including
> Mycosynth Golem) when you play Emblazoned Golem, its total cost is
> reduced by 10. If you say you want the kicker to be 8, its total cost
> is 10, affinity makes it cost 10 - 10 = 0, and you get a free 9/10
> creature.
>
>
> Is kicker included in cost reduction? Or is it a separate cost?
>
> Does this mean I could put out a super-huge Shifting Wall too?

Actually, this works perfectly well for Shifting Wall but not at all for
Emblazoned Golem, because Emblazoned Golem has what amounts to Sunburst.
(It came out way before Fifth Dawn, but it's the card that inspired the
Sunburst mechanic.) The Golem only gets counters for the colors of
mana you actually spend on its X cost. Even if you could somehow get
around this, you can't give it 8 counters because there aren't eight
colors.

(Dave D: I'm curious - will the Oracle text of Emblazoned Golem be
changed to say "Kicker - Sunburst", following the "Modular - Sunburst"
precendent of whatever critter it is that has that?)

> ***
> Emblazoned Golem {2}
> Artifact Creature -- Golem 1/2
> Apocalypse Uncommon
> - Kicker {X} (You may pay an additional {X} as you play this spell.)
> - Spend only colored mana on X. No more than one mana of each color
> may be spent this way.
> - If the kicker cost was paid, Emblazoned Golem comes into play with X
> +1/+1 counters on it.
> ***
> Mycosynth Golem {11}
> Artifact Creature -- Golem 4/5
> Fifth Dawn Rare
> - Affinity for artifacts (This spell costs {1} less to play for each
> artifact you control.)
> - Artifact creature spells you play have affinity for artifacts. (They
> cost {1} less to play for each artifact you control.)
> ***
> Shifting Wall {X}
> Artifact Creature -- Wall 0/0
> Stronghold Uncommon
> - (Walls can't attack.)
> - Shifting Wall comes into play with X +1/+1 counters on it.
> ***
>
> Peter
>

 

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"Jeff Heikkinen" <oh@s.if> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b72f7af5baf76a989e0d@news.easynews.com...
>
> Actually, this works perfectly well for Shifting Wall but not at all for
> Emblazoned Golem, because Emblazoned Golem has what amounts to Sunburst.
> (It came out way before Fifth Dawn, but it's the card that inspired the
> Sunburst mechanic.) The Golem only gets counters for the colors of
> mana you actually spend on its X cost. Even if you could somehow get
> around this, you can't give it 8 counters because there aren't eight
> colors.

> ***
> Emblazoned Golem {2}
> Artifact Creature -- Golem 1/2
> Apocalypse Uncommon
> - Kicker {X} (You may pay an additional {X} as you play this spell.)
> - Spend only colored mana on X. No more than one mana of each color
> may be spent this way.
> - If the kicker cost was paid, Emblazoned Golem comes into play with X
> +1/+1 counters on it.

Mmmm, are you sure about that? Assuming that the Kicker is part of the cost
(which would allow Affinity to reduce it), what is stopping you from setting
X to, say, {10}? If you have 10 artifacts on the table, and you set the
Kicker {X} to {10}, then Affinity would reduce the (Converted Mana Cost) {2}
to {0}, then knock {8} off the Kicker, right? So the Kicker would be {2},
which would have to be 2 different colors of mana. This means that "no more
than one mana of each color" was spent in this way. "Spent" being the key
word. Nothing on Emblazoned Golem says that {X} must be 5 or less, since the
QUANTITY {X} is not restricted by anything - only the QUALITY (I know -
those aren't "Magic words").

Of course, this is all predicated on the Kicker being part of the cost. I'm
not sure on the ruling of Kicker itself WRT Mana Cost.


--

KB

 

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Ken Briscoe <youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:

> Of course, this is all predicated on the Kicker being part of the cost. I'm
> not sure on the ruling of Kicker itself WRT Mana Cost.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/satschoolarchive&term=Helm_o
f_Awakening

Cost reduction doesn't normally care about "mana cost", it's applied to
"total cost". Which includes kicker.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Ken Briscoe, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> "Jeff Heikkinen" <oh@s.if> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1b72f7af5baf76a989e0d@news.easynews.com...
> >
> > Actually, this works perfectly well for Shifting Wall but not at all for
> > Emblazoned Golem, because Emblazoned Golem has what amounts to Sunburst.
> > (It came out way before Fifth Dawn, but it's the card that inspired the
> > Sunburst mechanic.) The Golem only gets counters for the colors of
> > mana you actually spend on its X cost. Even if you could somehow get
> > around this, you can't give it 8 counters because there aren't eight
> > colors.
>
> > ***
> > Emblazoned Golem {2}
> > Artifact Creature -- Golem 1/2
> > Apocalypse Uncommon
> > - Kicker {X} (You may pay an additional {X} as you play this spell.)
> > - Spend only colored mana on X. No more than one mana of each color
> > may be spent this way.
> > - If the kicker cost was paid, Emblazoned Golem comes into play with X
> > +1/+1 counters on it.
>
> Mmmm, are you sure about that? Assuming that the Kicker is part of the cost
> (which would allow Affinity to reduce it), what is stopping you from setting
> X to, say, {10}? If you have 10 artifacts on the table, and you set the
> Kicker {X} to {10}, then Affinity would reduce the (Converted Mana Cost) {2}
> to {0}, then knock {8} off the Kicker, right? So the Kicker would be {2},
> which would have to be 2 different colors of mana. This means that "no more
> than one mana of each color" was spent in this way. "Spent" being the key
> word. Nothing on Emblazoned Golem says that {X} must be 5 or less, since the
> QUANTITY {X} is not restricted by anything - only the QUALITY (I know -
> those aren't "Magic words").

Actually, I misread it as being more like Sunburst than it actually is.
Since it gets X counters, not number-of-colors counters, it looks to me
like Peter's trick works after all.

> Of course, this is all predicated on the Kicker being part of the cost. I'm
> not sure on the ruling of Kicker itself WRT Mana Cost.

It most certainly is.

 

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Peter <knucklehead000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Okay, wait, does THIS actually work too?
>
>Mycosynth Golem gives Emblazoned Golem affinity for artifacts.
>Emblazoned Golem says you can't spend colorless mana on X—but you can
>reduce the cost of X as much as you want. Nothing limits this X to
>being 5 or less. So if you have 10 artifacts in play (including
>Mycosynth Golem) when you play Emblazoned Golem, its total cost is
>reduced by 10. If you say you want the kicker to be 8, its total cost
>is 10, affinity makes it cost 10 - 10 = 0, and you get a free 9/10
>creature.

That works fine too. Yes, it's weird, but it's fine. The number of +1/+1
counters equals X; the cost you pay may be much less than X+2, in this case.
The restriction on spending mana for X doesn't really apply if you end up
not spending ANY mana on X.

>Is kicker included in cost reduction? Or is it a separate cost?

To find the cost you'll pay, you start with the mana cost - 2 - add any
additional costs - X - then subtract any cost reductions. Kicker's an
additional cost; there's no way to have a "separate cost" that's still paid at
the same time as the mana cost.

>Does this mean I could put out a super-huge Shifting Wall too?

If it had Affinity and you had lots of artifacts, sure. You decide what size
X is in 409.1b; you figure out what the cost is, based on that, in 409.1f,
a bit later, then pay the actual cost after that. The number of counters
SW gets equals the size of X, and has nothing directly to do with what you
actually end up _paying_ (though you can't choose an X bigger than you can
actually end up paying for, of course).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>Actually, this works perfectly well for Shifting Wall but not at all for=20
>Emblazoned Golem, because Emblazoned Golem has what amounts to Sunburst. =

No - no, it doesn't, actually. EG has _Kicker_ that works somewhat like
Sunburst; but if you look, it is NOT Sunburst - the number of counters
cares how big the kicker was, NOT how many colors of mana you paid for it.
Sunburst cares how many colors of mana you paid, NOT how big the mana cost
you were paying with them was.

>(It came out way before Fifth Dawn, but it's the card that inspired the=20
>Sunburst mechanic.) The Golem only gets counters for the colors of=20
>mana you actually spend on its X cost. Even if you could somehow get=20
>around this, you can't give it 8 counters because there aren't eight=20
>colors.

Look again, please:

Emblazoned Golem 2 Artifact Creature -- Golem
1/2 Kicker X (*) Spend only colored mana on X. No more than one mana of each
color may be spent this way. / If the kicker cost was paid, ~ comes into play
with X +1/+1 counters on it.

This isn't Sunburst, as the number of counters doesn't ask what colors of
mana were paid. It just asks how big X was. And if the Golem gets Affinity,
X can get fairly large without you having to actually spend _any_ mana paying
for it.

>(Dave D: I'm curious - will the Oracle text of Emblazoned Golem be=20
>changed to say "Kicker - Sunburst", following the "Modular - Sunburst"=20
>precendent of whatever critter it is that has that?)

No. Sunburst is -modelled- off of the Golem, sure - but it's not the same
ability at all.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikinnen sez:

<<
Peter, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Okay, wait, does THIS actually work too?
>=20
> Mycosynth Golem gives Emblazoned Golem affinity for artifacts.
> Emblazoned Golem says you can't spend colorless mana on X=97but you can
> reduce the cost of X as much as you want. Nothing limits this X to
> being 5 or less. So if you have 10 artifacts in play (including
> Mycosynth Golem) when you play Emblazoned Golem, its total cost is
> reduced by 10. If you say you want the kicker to be 8, its total cost
> is 10, affinity makes it cost 10 - 10 =3D 0, and you get a free 9/10
> creature.
>=20
>=20
> Is kicker included in cost reduction? Or is it a separate cost? =20
>=20
> Does this mean I could put out a super-huge Shifting Wall too?

Actually, this works perfectly well for Shifting Wall but not at all for=20
Emblazoned Golem, because Emblazoned Golem has what amounts to Sunburst. =
=20
(It came out way before Fifth Dawn, but it's the card that inspired the=20
Sunburst mechanic.) The Golem only gets counters for the colors of=20
mana you actually spend on its X cost. Even if you could somehow get=20
around this, you can't give it 8 counters because there aren't eight=20
colors.

>>

Watch it, Jeff. The Golem DOESN'T have Sunburst. What it has are the
following three abilities:

Kicker X
Spend only colored mana on X. No more than one mana of each color may be spent
this way.
If the kicker cost was paid, ~this~ comes into play with X +1/+1 counters on
it.

That last ability's importantly different than from what Sunburst is. If we
were to put Sunburst in Kicker's form, that last ability would read "If the
kicker cost was paid, ~this~ comes into play with a +1/+1 counter on it for
each color spent to pay the kicker cost."

Emblazoned Golem simply uses X. Mana reducers can increase X in either the
Golem or, say, Engineered Explosives. The important difference is that this
increases the number of counters on the Golem, whose counter-placing ability
does NOT depend on the colors spent to pay for the cost it depends on. The
Explosives, whose counter-placing ability DOES depend on the colors spent to
pay for the cost it depends on, would get no more counters, which means
mana-reducers are useless in its case.


----
If [Michael Moore] makes a mistake in [F 9/11], it's not that he's careless
with the facts ... It's that he suggests Bush is the cause of our problems,
when, in fact, Bush is just the result.
--The Libertarian Lessons of Fahrenheit 9/11

 

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On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:19:25 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:

>Actually, I misread it as being more like Sunburst than it actually is.
>Since it gets X counters, not number-of-colors counters, it looks to me
>like Peter's trick works after all.

It works on MTGO, but not for creatures with Sunburst. (those are some
smart programmers huh!)

 

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On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:16:00 -0500, Mark Landin
<mark.landin@tdwilliamson.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:19:25 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>
>>Actually, I misread it as being more like Sunburst than it actually is.
>>Since it gets X counters, not number-of-colors counters, it looks to me
>>like Peter's trick works after all.
>
>It works on MTGO, but not for creatures with Sunburst. (those are some
>smart programmers huh!)

Umm, I dont get it - what is it that don't work on MTGO?

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

 

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Simon Nejmann sez:

<<
>On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 09:16:00 -0500, Mark Landin
><mark.landin@tdwilliamson.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 19:19:25 GMT, Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>>
>>>Actually, I misread it as being more like Sunburst than it actually is.
>>>Since it gets X counters, not number-of-colors counters, it looks to me
>>>like Peter's trick works after all.
>>
>>It works on MTGO, but not for creatures with Sunburst. (those are some
>>smart programmers huh!)
>
>Umm, I dont get it - what is it that don't work on MTGO?

>
>>

Using Mycosynth Golem and a whole lot of artifacts to get out a huge Emblazoned
Golem.


----
If [Michael Moore] makes a mistake in [F 9/11], it's not that he's careless
with the facts ... It's that he suggests Bush is the cause of our problems,
when, in fact, Bush is just the result.
--The Libertarian Lessons of Fahrenheit 9/11