Endless Whispers and Grab The Reins

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I was playing a game last night and Endless Whispers caused a huge
amount of questions to arise.
To make a long explanation of the situation short:What happens when
there's an Endless Whispers in play and I Grab The Reins with Entwine
one of my opponents creatures.
Will the creature stay on my side or does my opponent get it back
after it dies?

Also,if neither of us have any creatures in play,and I drop an
Accursed Centaur,does the game go into an infinite loop and we draw?

I can see Endless Whispers causing the judges to work overtime,if
people actually end up using it in tourneys.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, dillpupp!
You wrote on 18 Jun 2004 11:28:17 -0700:

d> I was playing a game last night and Endless Whispers caused a
d> huge
d> amount of questions to arise.
d> To make a long explanation of the situation short:What happens
d> when
d> there's an Endless Whispers in play and I Grab The Reins with
d> Entwine
d> one of my opponents creatures.
d> Will the creature stay on my side or does my opponent get it
d> back
d> after it dies?

First, Oracle text of the cards in question:

Endless Whispers
{2}{B}{B}
Enchantment
Each creature has "When this creature is put into a graveyard from play,
choose target opponent. That player puts this creature card from that
graveyard into play under his or her control at end of turn."

Grab the Reins
{3}{R}
Instant
Choose one -- Until end of turn, you gain control of target creature and
it gains haste; or sacrifice a creature, then Grab the Reins deals
damage equal to that creature's power to target creature or player.
Entwine {2}{R} (Choose both if you pay the entwine cost.)

Now, who controlled the creature when you sacrificed it to Grab the
Reins? You - you can't sacrifice something you don't control. That
creature had a triggered ability (thanks to Endless Whispers), which
triggered as you sacrificed it. The controller of a triggered ability
is the controller of its source when it triggered. You again. So it's
you who chooses target opponent (if you can - Ivory Mask/True
Believer/Gilded Light can all make this ability do nothing for the lack
of targets). At end of turn, that player puts the creature under
his/her control.

d> Also,if neither of us have any creatures in play,and I drop an
d> Accursed Centaur,does the game go into an infinite loop and we
d> draw?

Accursed Centaur
{B}
Creature -- Zombie Centaur
2/2
When Accursed Centaur comes into play, sacrifice a creature.

Why go into an infinite loop? There is a *whole turn* between two
appearances of the same Accursed Centaur card on the table. Once End of
Turn Step started, the next time "at the end of turn" triggered
abilities go on the stack is the end of the *next* turn. See "End of
Turn Step" section in Comprehensive Rules.

Regards,
Arkady.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

dillpupp sez:

<<
>I was playing a game last night and Endless Whispers caused a huge
>amount of questions to arise.
> To make a long explanation of the situation short:What happens when
>there's an Endless Whispers in play and I Grab The Reins with Entwine
>one of my opponents creatures.
> Will the creature stay on my side or does my opponent get it back
>after it dies?
>
>>

Your opponent gets it back at end of turn. You were its controller when it
hits the graveyard, so all EW decisions are yours to make. And since you can't
be an opponent of yourself, you can't get the creature back...so, by process of
elimination (at least, in a normal duel), it has to go back to your opponent.


----
"If President Bush is going to take credit for 'the invisble hand' [of
economics], then he's going to take the blame when 'the hand' gives him the
finger."
--From Fark.com

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 18 Jun 2004 11:28:17 -0700, dillpupp <dillpupp@aol.com> wrote:
>I was playing a game last night and Endless Whispers caused a huge
>amount of questions to arise.
> To make a long explanation of the situation short:What happens when
>there's an Endless Whispers in play and I Grab The Reins with Entwine
>one of my opponents creatures.
> Will the creature stay on my side or does my opponent get it back
>after it dies?

Endless Whispers 2BB Enchantment
Each creature has "When this creature is put into a graveyard from play,
choose target opponent. That player puts this creature card from that
graveyard into play under his or her control at end of turn.".

The EW gives the ability to the creatures, so the creature's controller will
be this triggered ability's controller. If you control the creature as it
dies, even if you just got it a moment ago from the first part of Grab the
Reins' Entwined effect, you will be the player that the ability given it by
Endless Whispers will be talking to: you choose target opponent, then later
on they get the creature card out of whoever's graveyard it went to.

So no, you don't "get this creature back"; _nobody_ "gets a creature back"
from EW, they always go to an opponent of the controller-as-the-creature-died.

>Also,if neither of us have any creatures in play,and I drop an
>Accursed Centaur,does the game go into an infinite loop and we draw?

The game loops, yes. But it's a loop that takes entire turns to go around;
that won't draw the game unless there is literally NOTHING else able to
happen during anyone's turn, including drawing a card as the normal draw.
Yes, when the AC reappears during end-of-turn step, its new controller has
to sacrifice it, then pick a target opponent... but we are already PAST the
time, this turn, when "at end of turn" abilities can trigger. The AC won't
reappear under that opponent's control until the _next_ turn's End phase.

>I can see Endless Whispers causing the judges to work overtime,if
>people actually end up using it in tourneys.

It's just a sick and twisted Lifeline...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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On 18 Jun 2004 11:28:17 -0700, dillpupp@aol.com (dillpupp) wrote:

> To make a long explanation of the situation short:What happens when
>there's an Endless Whispers in play and I Grab The Reins with Entwine
>one of my opponents creatures.
> Will the creature stay on my side or does my opponent get it back
>after it dies?

You cast an entwined Grab the Reins and grab one of his creatures, you
then sacrifice that creature in order to hit something. Well, you
controlled it when it died, so you choose an opponent who then gets
that creature at end of turn.

Endless Whispers
{2}{B}{B}
Enchantment
Each creature has "When this creature is put into a graveyard from
play, choose target opponent. That player puts this creature card from
that graveyard into play under his or her control at end of turn."

Grab the Reins
{3}{R}
Instant
Choose one -- Until end of turn, you gain control of target creature
and it gains haste; or sacrifice a creature, then ~this~ deals damage
equal to that creature's power to target creature or player.
Entwine {2}{R} (Choose both if you pay the entwine cost.)

>Also,if neither of us have any creatures in play,and I drop an
>Accursed Centaur,does the game go into an infinite loop and we draw?

Sort of... There is a loop going, but it dosn't in any way force a
draw.
The Centaur comes into play -> the Centaur is sacrificed -> at end of
turn it comes into play for the opponent -> the Centaur is sacrificed
again -> at _next_ end of turn it comes into play again for opponents
opponent -> continue.
It is a loop, but each iteration takes an entire turn, and you can
easily play around it or break it up (pull it out of the graveyard,
sacrifice something else or destroy Endless Whispers).

Accursed Centaur
{B}
Creature -- Zombie Centaur
2/2
When ~this~ comes into play, sacrifice a creature.

>I can see Endless Whispers causing the judges to work overtime,if
>people actually end up using it in tourneys.

Why? It's not really that all complicated...

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann