Eon Hub

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Short form of question: how does Eon Hub interact with upkeep effects
containing an "if you cannot..." clause as a separate sentence?

Long form of question: Eon Hub takes out upkeep as a part of the game
while in play. But if a card has an upkeep effect worded anything like
"At the beginning of (or during) your upkeep, do [foo]. If you cannot
(or if you do not), do [bar]." and Eon Hub makes you skip your upkeep,
can the game then say at the start of the next step "A-ha! That "if you
cannot" clause is true, so [bar] takes effect"? Or does Eon Hub make the
*entire* thing redundant as there is no upkeep thus no choice to be made?

Or have all the cards that used this wording since been changed to "do
[foo] *or* (or *unless you*) do [bar]", which, being all one sentence, is
obviously something that Eon Hub will allow one to completely ignore?

Reason I ask is I'm looking at an old Lord of the Pit (and can't get at
Oracle from here to see if it has been re-worded) that reads "During your
upkeep, sacrifice a creature. If you cannot sacrifice a creature, [this]
deals 7 damage to you. You cannot sacrifice [this] to itself." I'm
trying to put together a Hub deck and I *know* someone will eventually say
"Hey, you didn't sac a creature during your upkeep because you didn't have
an upkeep, so at the next possible opportunity LotP hammers you for 7!",
so I'm looking to clear the road in advance, so to speak.


Keith

 

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uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (Keith Piddington) writes:
> Short form of question: how does Eon Hub interact with upkeep
> effects containing an "if you cannot..." clause as a separate
> sentence?

Well, there really isn't any such thing as an "upkeep effect". Eon Hub
simply prevents upkeep steps from occurring.

> Long form of question: Eon Hub takes out upkeep as a part of the
> game while in play. But if a card has an upkeep effect worded
> anything like "At the beginning of (or during) your upkeep, do
> [foo]. If you cannot (or if you do not), do [bar]." and Eon Hub
> makes you skip your upkeep, can the game then say at the start of
> the next step "A-ha! That "if you cannot" clause is true, so [bar]
> takes effect"? Or does Eon Hub make the *entire* thing redundant as
> there is no upkeep thus no choice to be made?

Basically, your second option. If an ability is worded using "At the
beginning of your upkeep," then that ability will never trigger as
long as Eon Hub is in play. Therefore, it never resolves, never asks
you to do [foo], and never tells you to do [bar].

> Or have all the cards that used this wording since been changed to
> "do [foo] *or* (or *unless you*) do [bar]", which, being all one
> sentence, is obviously something that Eon Hub will allow one to
> completely ignore?

I don't know a whole lot about old card wordings, but the number of
sentences doesn't matter here. All that matters is if the ability is
something that happens at the beginning of your upkeep. An ability is
set apart by paragraph breaks (or commas for keyword abilities).

> Reason I ask is I'm looking at an old Lord of the Pit (and can't get
> at Oracle from here to see if it has been re-worded) that reads
> "During your upkeep, sacrifice a creature. If you cannot sacrifice
> a creature, [this] deals 7 damage to you. You cannot sacrifice
> [this] to itself."

Well, then I'll look it up for you:

,----[ Oracle ]
| Lord of the Pit
| {4}{B}{B}{B}
| Creature -- Demon
| 7/7
| Flying, trample
| At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature other than
| Lord of the Pit. If you can't, Lord of the Pit deals 7 damage to
| you.
`----

The "At the beginning of your upkeep" ability won't ever trigger when
Eon Hub is around, so it'll never ask you to sacrifice a creature or
deal 7 damage to you.

> I'm trying to put together a Hub deck and I *know* someone will
> eventually say "Hey, you didn't sac a creature during your upkeep
> because you didn't have an upkeep, so at the next possible
> opportunity LotP hammers you for 7!", so I'm looking to clear the
> road in advance, so to speak.

Well, that someone would be wrong. Lord of the Pit likes when Eon Hub
is around.

--
Peter C.
Newly-Certified Level 1 Judge

 

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Keith Piddington <uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
>Short form of question: how does Eon Hub interact with upkeep effects
>containing an "if you cannot..." clause as a separate sentence?

No upkeep means nothing that triggers "at the beginning of (your) upkeep" can
trigger at all, and abilities that say "Play only during (your) upkeep" can't
be played at all.

Stuff that never triggers or never gets played can't possibly resolve.

>Long form of question: Eon Hub takes out upkeep as a part of the game
>while in play. But if a card has an upkeep effect worded anything like
>"At the beginning of (or during) your upkeep, do [foo]. If you cannot
>(or if you do not), do [bar]." and Eon Hub makes you skip your upkeep,

then that triggered ability can't trigger, never goes on the stack, never
resolves, so does not cause any part of its effect to happen in any way.

>can the game then say at the start of the next step "A-ha! That "if you
>cannot" clause is true, so [bar] takes effect"? Or does Eon Hub make the
>*entire* thing redundant as there is no upkeep thus no choice to be made?

Eon Hub makes it unable to trigger in the first place.

>Or have all the cards that used this wording since been changed to "do
>[foo] *or* (or *unless you*) do [bar]", which, being all one sentence, is
>obviously something that Eon Hub will allow one to completely ignore?

No. But anything that -triggers- at the beginning of your upkeep? Can't trigger
if you don't have an upkeep step.

>Reason I ask is I'm looking at an old Lord of the Pit (and can't get at
>Oracle from here to see if it has been re-worded) that reads "During your
>upkeep, sacrifice a creature. If you cannot sacrifice a creature, [this]
>deals 7 damage to you. You cannot sacrifice [this] to itself."

Current wording:
Lord of the Pit 4BBB Creature -- Demon
7/7 Flying, trample At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature
other than ~. If you can't, ~ deals 7 damage to you.

>I'm trying to put together a Hub deck and I *know* someone will eventually say
>"Hey, you didn't sac a creature during your upkeep because you didn't have
>an upkeep, so at the next possible opportunity LotP hammers you for 7!",

Then "someone" needs to be told "It's not worded "Any time you could have
resolved LotP's ability but didn't because it never triggered, LotP deals
7 damage to you", or anything like that". It's got one (1) triggered ability,
which can't do anything unless it gets to resolve. Similarly, Stifle counters
the ability entirely.

For another example, Eon Hub turns off cumulative upkeep entirely: you don't
put age counters on things, you don't pay anything, and you don't sacrifice
them either.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca (Keith Piddington) writes:

> Short form of question: how does Eon Hub interact with upkeep effects
> containing an "if you cannot..." clause as a separate sentence?
>
> Long form of question: Eon Hub takes out upkeep as a part of the game
> while in play. But if a card has an upkeep effect worded anything like
> "At the beginning of (or during) your upkeep, do [foo]. If you cannot
> (or if you do not), do [bar]." and Eon Hub makes you skip your upkeep,
> can the game then say at the start of the next step "A-ha! That "if you
> cannot" clause is true, so [bar] takes effect"? Or does Eon Hub make the
> *entire* thing redundant as there is no upkeep thus no choice to be made?

The latter.

> Or have all the cards that used this wording since been changed to "do
> [foo] *or* (or *unless you*) do [bar]", which, being all one sentence, is
> obviously something that Eon Hub will allow one to completely ignore?

The answer would be the same if they did this. It's all part of the same
triggered ability, which never gets the chance to occur. Since the upkeep
does not occur, it cannot begin, and thus the trigger condition is never met.

> Reason I ask is I'm looking at an old Lord of the Pit. I'm
> trying to put together a Hub deck and I *know* someone will eventually say
> "Hey, you didn't sac a creature during your upkeep because you didn't have
> an upkeep, so at the next possible opportunity LotP hammers you for 7!",
> so I'm looking to clear the road in advance, so to speak.

Lord of the Pit: {4BBB} |Creature -- Demon| 7/7. Flying, trample / At the
beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature other than Lord of the Pit. If
you can't, Lord of the Pit deals 7 damage to you.

That person would be incorrect. It's all part of a single triggered ability,
which never triggered, and thus has no effect.
--
Lee Sharpe, lee.sharpe AT gmail.com
DCI Level 2 Judge

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Keith Piddington, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Short form of question: how does Eon Hub interact with upkeep effects
> containing an "if you cannot..." clause as a separate sentence?

Typically, those are triggered effects whose triggering condition ("At
the beginning of your upkeep...") never happened. Since they never
trigger, they never happen, and no part of their effect takes place, any
more than any part of the effect of a card that sits unplayed in your
hand takes place.

> Long form of question: Eon Hub takes out upkeep as a part of the game
> while in play. But if a card has an upkeep effect worded anything like
> "At the beginning of (or during) your upkeep, do [foo]. If you cannot
> (or if you do not), do [bar]." and Eon Hub makes you skip your upkeep,
> can the game then say at the start of the next step "A-ha! That "if you
> cannot" clause is true, so [bar] takes effect"?

No - it's part of a triggered ability that never happened.

> Or does Eon Hub make the
> *entire* thing redundant as there is no upkeep thus no choice to be made?

Yes, to be more precise, the triggering event that would cause the game
to even look at that clause never takes place.

> Or have all the cards that used this wording since been changed to "do
> [foo] *or* (or *unless you*) do [bar]", which, being all one sentence, is
> obviously something that Eon Hub will allow one to completely ignore?
>
> Reason I ask is I'm looking at an old Lord of the Pit (and can't get at
> Oracle from here to see if it has been re-worded) that reads "During your
> upkeep, sacrifice a creature. If you cannot sacrifice a creature, [this]
> deals 7 damage to you. You cannot sacrifice [this] to itself." I'm
> trying to put together a Hub deck and I *know* someone will eventually say
> "Hey, you didn't sac a creature during your upkeep because you didn't have
> an upkeep, so at the next possible opportunity LotP hammers you for 7!",

How? Even under that wording (modulo changing "During" to "At the
beginning of"), the ability never triggers.


--
Let's not let this drift into a topic about playing your alignment. I
have too much to do to be able to properly ridicule and post whore.
- Rob Singers

 

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dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote in message news:<slrncifgrr.8h0.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com>...
> Keith Piddington <uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote:

<big snip>

> For another example, Eon Hub turns off cumulative upkeep entirely: you don't
> put age counters on things, you don't pay anything, and you don't sacrifice
> them either.
>
> Dave

Turns off cumulative upkeep? Turns Off Cumulative Upkeep!
<Picture old man leering over the top of his spectacles, rubbing his
hands together and cackling softly to himself. Slight drool seen at
corner of mouth...>

Mike McC