EQ2: Heroic opportunities - clarification

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

I still don't quite understand the particulars of a HO. I understand how
they are executed and a rogue's ability to shift them, but the idea of
coordinating one so that no one casts or strikes out of turn seems to be
both a logistical nightmare (especially in a pick-up group) and, from my
soloing experience, a huge inefficiency.

While solo'ing, HO's really pay off, as I am merely executing the moves I
would otherwise, giving me a bonus to damage or a beneficial buff every
couple of attacks.

When in a group, it seems like everyone almost has to stop attacking so the
chain can be completed successfully. Also, how do you establish who is
responsible for which part of the chain? Is that even necessary? Does this
create a situation where only certain members of the group end up
participating in the chain? If so, why would the other members even stick
around? I mean, it seems you would always want to be using HO's, and if
GroupMember_01 is a mage with the best nuke and therefore the logical
choice to handle the DD links in the chain, that kind of leaves out any
other DD classes where HO's are concerned.

Like I said, maybe I'm just missing some of the particulars. Is it any non-
chain-condusive action that will break a HO chain, or just particular ones?
How does a group use HO's effectively without everyone stopping their
attack except for the player who is next to execute a step in the HO?

--
Rumble

"The floggings will continue until morale improves."
-- Blackbeard

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:20:48 GMT, Rumbledor wrote:

> I still don't quite understand the particulars of a HO. I understand how
> they are executed and a rogue's ability to shift them, but the idea of
> coordinating one so that no one casts or strikes out of turn seems to be
> both a logistical nightmare (especially in a pick-up group) and, from my
> soloing experience, a huge inefficiency.
The easiest way is to have the main call out the HO before initiating and
having the others in the group hold off specials until the HO is started.
Of course this will take the kind of communication you don't normally see
in pick-up groups. And I tend to agree that they hinder efficiency in a
well balanced group.

>
> While solo'ing, HO's really pay off, as I am merely executing the moves I
> would otherwise, giving me a bonus to damage or a beneficial buff every
> couple of attacks.
I have a faint idea that this was the thinking behind the HO concept.
Something that would allow you to solo so they can say that you can solo,
but made it group friendly as well so it didn't come off as a solo only
maneuver.

>
> When in a group, it seems like everyone almost has to stop attacking so the
> chain can be completed successfully. Also, how do you establish who is
> responsible for which part of the chain? Is that even necessary? Does this
> create a situation where only certain members of the group end up
> participating in the chain? If so, why would the other members even stick
> around? I mean, it seems you would always want to be using HO's, and if
> GroupMember_01 is a mage with the best nuke and therefore the logical
> choice to handle the DD links in the chain, that kind of leaves out any
> other DD classes where HO's are concerned.
There are two ways I would handle it (if I grouped with anyone but my
wife). First, I would do as you alluded to and make the member with the
"best" HO for the situation fire off their solo HO as they saw fit (of
course they'd have to call out when they were going to fire it off a few
seconds before initiating it. Second, I would set the gameplan before hand
in a group HO situation. I would tell them who should initiate it and the
order they were to fire off. There are several problems with this. The
first problem with this is the inevitable person not listening or paying
attention and breaking the chain. The second problem is not having the
right member types to complete a useful chain. Just looking at the list at:
http://www.gnorrath.com/index.htm and you can see the problem. The lists
aren't complete yet. And I pity the scout who isn't paying complete
attention and lets a area effect HO go off after the mezzer has done
his/her magic on the other mobs.

>
> Like I said, maybe I'm just missing some of the particulars. Is it any non-
> chain-condusive action that will break a HO chain, or just particular ones?
> How does a group use HO's effectively without everyone stopping their
> attack except for the player who is next to execute a step in the HO?
Personally, I wouldn't bother using group HOs - at least until the
population gets assimilated to them and can carry them off as second
nature. I also don't think this will happen quite the way they were
intended. As for me, I'll use the first method I described above and let
one group member do their solo HOs and if feelings start to get hurt rotate
the solo HOs among the groupmembers.

--
RJB
12/9/2004 11:48:52 AM

If you go flying back through time and you see somebody else flying forward
into the future, it's probably best to avoid eye contact.
--Jack Handy Deep Thoughts

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

But how much damage could everyone have been doing by continuing to
unload on the mob during that 10 to 20 seconds? Much more than the
benefit of a successful HO would be worth, it would seem.



- Hide quoted text -
That was what I thought too, but then I joined a group where we worked
well with the HOs. Basically, you don't really have to wait to cast
your spell, just don't put spells in queue. Our HOs would happen in a
span of 3 or 4 seconds, our DPS was immense, things were going down in
a fraction of the time and us using a fraction of the power. This was
a pickup group too, but I haven't been able to repeat that feat with
other groups

 

[Wolfie]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Rumbledor wrote:

> I still don't quite understand the particulars of a HO. I understand
> how they are executed and a rogue's ability to shift them, but the
> idea of coordinating one so that no one casts or strikes out of turn
> seems to be both a logistical nightmare (especially in a pick-up
> group) and, from my soloing experience, a huge inefficiency.

I was in a pickup group last night and we didn't have
ANY trouble doing them from the time I joined until
the group disbanded. As a guess, people get more
familiar with them as they level (we were doing part
of armor quest 2 from Qeynos.)

> When in a group, it seems like everyone almost has to stop
> attacking so the chain can be completed successfully.

But you're only talking seconds, not minutes. Completing
an HO only takes as long as each class recognizing their
symbol and the cast time for each part -- maybe 10 to
20 seconds?

> Also, how do you establish who is responsible for which
> part of the chain?

When you have multiple classes in a group? Easy, one
person does the HOs, one uses their special attacks in
the time between them. That balances the power usage.

> Does this create a situation where only certain
> members of the group end up participating in the chain?

Yes.

> If so, why would the other members even stick around?

Because they're doing their part during the time between
HOs -- AND getting the benefits from them being done.
For example, two priests: one takes primary healer,
one nukes or spot heals as part of the HOs. No one
is going to think the primary healer isn't a critical part
of the group...

> I mean, it seems you would always want to be using HO's,
> and if GroupMember_01 is a mage with the best nuke and
> therefore the logical choice to handle the DD links
> in the chain, that kind of leaves out any other DD classes
> where HO's are concerned.

There's the "bad assumption." You do NOT want to
constantly chain HOs. You want to do establish aggro
from the pull (non-HO), HO, spot heal/DoT/nuke,
HO, spot-heal/DoT/nuke, etc..

> Like I said, maybe I'm just missing some of the particulars. Is it
> any non- chain-condusive action that will break a HO chain, or just
> particular ones? How does a group use HO's effectively without
> everyone stopping their attack except for the player who is next to
> execute a step in the HO?

Think of a DD class in EQ -- you did NOT simply start
chain-casting nukes. You waited for aggro to be established,
nuked, waited for hate to disperse, nuked, and so on. The
only time you really went full out was at the end of a fight.
HO is the same thing -- except you have part of the group
doing the HOs (one from each archtype) and the other two
doing their damage/heals/whatever during the "lull" between.
A group could even let them do solo HOs -- group HO,
solo HO by person 5, solo HO by person 6, repeat.

But -- yes, SOME actions break HOs. SOME do NOT.
Heals, for instance, seem to be tolerated fairly well. What
you NEVER do is trigger an HO while one is being
worked OR 'cast' while the trigger symbol is up. Other
than that it seems fairly tolerant -- at least from a priest
POV. I would *guess* the same is true for other
classes "defining" abilities.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Wolfie" <dbgbdwolf@gte.net> wrote in news:kK%td.101337$8G4.26918
@tornado.tampabay.rr.com:

> Rumbledor wrote:
>
>> I still don't quite understand the particulars of a HO. I understand
>> how they are executed and a rogue's ability to shift them, but the
>> idea of coordinating one so that no one casts or strikes out of turn
>> seems to be both a logistical nightmare (especially in a pick-up
>> group) and, from my soloing experience, a huge inefficiency.
>
> I was in a pickup group last night and we didn't have
> ANY trouble doing them from the time I joined until
> the group disbanded. As a guess, people get more
> familiar with them as they level (we were doing part
> of armor quest 2 from Qeynos.)
>
>> When in a group, it seems like everyone almost has to stop
>> attacking so the chain can be completed successfully.
>
> But you're only talking seconds, not minutes. Completing
> an HO only takes as long as each class recognizing their
> symbol and the cast time for each part -- maybe 10 to
> 20 seconds?

But how much damage could everyone have been doing by continuing to
unload on the mob during that 10 to 20 seconds? Much more than the
benefit of a successful HO would be worth, it would seem.

>> Also, how do you establish who is responsible for which
>> part of the chain?
>
> When you have multiple classes in a group? Easy, one
> person does the HOs, one uses their special attacks in
> the time between them. That balances the power usage.
>
>> Does this create a situation where only certain
>> members of the group end up participating in the chain?
>
> Yes.
>
>> If so, why would the other members even stick around?
>
> Because they're doing their part during the time between
> HOs -- AND getting the benefits from them being done.
> For example, two priests: one takes primary healer,
> one nukes or spot heals as part of the HOs. No one
> is going to think the primary healer isn't a critical part
> of the group...

Maybe, but apply that to a general DPS or utility class, and it becomes a
much less equitable relationship.

>> I mean, it seems you would always want to be using HO's,
>> and if GroupMember_01 is a mage with the best nuke and
>> therefore the logical choice to handle the DD links
>> in the chain, that kind of leaves out any other DD classes
>> where HO's are concerned.
>
> There's the "bad assumption." You do NOT want to
> constantly chain HOs. You want to do establish aggro
> from the pull (non-HO), HO, spot heal/DoT/nuke,
> HO, spot-heal/DoT/nuke, etc..

In that case, I'm back to the thought that they don't provide enough
benefit to offset the interruption in DPS they require.

>> Like I said, maybe I'm just missing some of the particulars. Is it
>> any non- chain-condusive action that will break a HO chain, or just
>> particular ones? How does a group use HO's effectively without
>> everyone stopping their attack except for the player who is next to
>> execute a step in the HO?
>
> Think of a DD class in EQ -- you did NOT simply start
> chain-casting nukes. You waited for aggro to be established,
> nuked, waited for hate to disperse, nuked, and so on. The
> only time you really went full out was at the end of a fight.
> HO is the same thing -- except you have part of the group
> doing the HOs (one from each archtype) and the other two
> doing their damage/heals/whatever during the "lull" between.
> A group could even let them do solo HOs -- group HO,
> solo HO by person 5, solo HO by person 6, repeat.

So there are solo HO's that aren't affected by the actions of the rest of
the group?

> But -- yes, SOME actions break HOs. SOME do NOT.
> Heals, for instance, seem to be tolerated fairly well. What
> you NEVER do is trigger an HO while one is being
> worked OR 'cast' while the trigger symbol is up. Other
> than that it seems fairly tolerant -- at least from a priest
> POV. I would *guess* the same is true for other
> classes "defining" abilities.

By trigger symbol, I assume you mean the initial HO graphic before it
changes to the action wheel. I guess that part would make sense.

--
Rumble

"The floggings will continue until morale improves."
-- Blackbeard

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Rumbledor <Rumbledor@HotRemoveThisPartMail.com> wrote in
news:Xns95BA736EBB21CRumbledorhotmailcom@216.148.227.77:

> I still don't quite understand the particulars of a HO. I understand
> how they are executed and a rogue's ability to shift them, but the
> idea of coordinating one so that no one casts or strikes out of turn
> seems to be both a logistical nightmare (especially in a pick-up
> group) and, from my soloing experience, a huge inefficiency.
>
> While solo'ing, HO's really pay off, as I am merely executing the
> moves I would otherwise, giving me a bonus to damage or a beneficial
> buff every couple of attacks.
>
> When in a group, it seems like everyone almost has to stop attacking
> so the chain can be completed successfully. Also, how do you establish
> who is responsible for which part of the chain? Is that even
> necessary? Does this create a situation where only certain members of
> the group end up participating in the chain? If so, why would the
> other members even stick around? I mean, it seems you would always
> want to be using HO's, and if GroupMember_01 is a mage with the best
> nuke and therefore the logical choice to handle the DD links in the
> chain, that kind of leaves out any other DD classes where HO's are
> concerned.

You do not need to stop attacking, you just need to not perform any of
the special actions that would interrupt the HO during the HO. It's
probably best to decide beforehand who does what for the HOs,
particularly if you are going to try them in a pickup group. Just
attacking, swinging a weapon, will not do anything to an HO, but using a
maneuver, like kick, or wild swing, or taunt, will affect the HO.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Ancient Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 69 seasons

On Steamfont in <Bane of Evil>
Graeme, 17 Dwarven Shaman, 14 Scholar

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004, Graeme Faelban wrote:

> You do not need to stop attacking, you just need to not perform any of
> the special actions that would interrupt the HO during the HO. It's
> probably best to decide beforehand who does what for the HOs,
> particularly if you are going to try them in a pickup group. Just
> attacking, swinging a weapon, will not do anything to an HO, but using a
> maneuver, like kick, or wild swing, or taunt, will affect the HO.

I have a question as well. WHen my husband's bard starts an HO, some of
my spells will flash. I will dutifully begin to cast one of them, only to
see the message that he's already finished the HO. Are some HOs set up so
that any one of a group can finish them?

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Jerelyn Foxeye -- http://www.foxeye-art.com

On Antonia Bayle (EQ):
[20 Iksar Templar] Viizanafyaeth
[6 High Elf Fighter] Foxeye

On Order (Horizons):
[10 Monk/Druid Saris] Foxeye

 

[Wolfie]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Foxeye Vaeltaja wrote:

> Are some HOs set up so that any one of a group can
> finish them?

Some 'steps' are generic, yes. For instance, a mage
HO will call for a nuke -- any other caster can nuke
there in their place, which triggers a different HO
with a different benefit.

There are also multi-'directional' HOs which can be
done in any order, as well as the routine ones which
must be followed step-by-step.

It's a fairly complex system - especially at the scout
"re-orient" level.

 

[Wolfie]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

Rumbledor wrote:

> But how much damage could everyone have been doing by continuing to
> unload on the mob during that 10 to 20 seconds? Much more than the
> benefit of a successful HO would be worth, it would seem.

HO benefits aren't just raw damage, though. There's health
and power regen, for instance. Power regen in particular
can be more than worth the wait. And, just for the record,
a 20 second HO would either have some very slow players
or lots of fizzles/resists tied in.

> In that case, I'm back to the thought that they don't provide enough
> benefit to offset the interruption in DPS they require.

All I know from practical experience is HOs dramatically
cut kill time and down time for a group. *shrug*

> By trigger symbol, I assume you mean the initial HO graphic before it
> changes to the action wheel. I guess that part would make sense.

Right. Triggering another HO while the initial HO symbol is up
ends the first HO. Doing a special attack out-of-order ends
an HO (for the sequence ones, of course, the random ones
obviously don't care about sequence.) Other than that, people
can attack as they normally would, at least as far as I can tell.

 

[Patrik]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

"Wolfie" <dbgbdwolf@gte.net> writes:

> Rumbledor wrote:
> > Like I said, maybe I'm just missing some of the particulars. Is it
> > any non- chain-condusive action that will break a HO chain, or just
> > particular ones? How does a group use HO's effectively without
> > everyone stopping their attack except for the player who is next to
> > execute a step in the HO?
>
> But -- yes, SOME actions break HOs. SOME do NOT.

My experience has been that either an ability advances the chain, or
it breaks it, unless you've reached the wheel stage, at which point it
won't break but wait for all the required abilities. I've never been
able to use an ability that doesn't advance a chain without breaking
the cahin, at least not when I've been paying attention.

 

[Wolfie]

Archived from groups: alt.games.everquest (More info?)

patrik@nordebo.com wrote:
> "Wolfie" <dbgbdwolf@gte.net> writes:
>
>> Rumbledor wrote:
>>> Like I said, maybe I'm just missing some of the particulars. Is it
>>> any non- chain-condusive action that will break a HO chain, or just
>>> particular ones? How does a group use HO's effectively without
>>> everyone stopping their attack except for the player who is next to
>>> execute a step in the HO?
>>
>> But -- yes, SOME actions break HOs. SOME do NOT.
>
> My experience has been that either an ability advances the chain, or
> it breaks it, unless you've reached the wheel stage, at which point it
> won't break but wait for all the required abilities. I've never been
> able to use an ability that doesn't advance a chain without breaking
> the cahin, at least not when I've been paying attention.

Right -- it's just the initial symbol and initial cast which are
sensitive to sequence from what I can tell. The wheel seems
to be fairly robust, other than to sequence checks (and I'm
not all that sure about those since I tend to avoid abilities
I know are coming up on the wheel.)