Question Extender/repeater? What's best for me?

[schwim]

Hi there everyone!

I've got an issue that I just don't know how to move forward with. We have a large three story house that requires more than a single router. Also, we've got a ton of devices connecting to a single router, which I believe is problematic as well. I have a cat5 that makes it upstairs but for some reason whenever I install a second router up there, those connections drop routinely(2 to 5 times per minute for 5-10 seconds at a time). This problem has persisted through multiple routers at both the first floor and the second. I would have loved to use that cable because it would have been the best solution but I just can't figure out the routine drops that have persisted through numerous routers/ISPs so I've got to move on to a solution.

That issue has me looking at a repeater/mesh extender for upstairs. We all game so latency and stable connection are of paramount importance for us. This is the latest router to be purchased(TP-Link AC1750) and will be installing it on the first floor as the primary router. I looked up on the TP-Link website and WiFi Extender(TP-Link AC1750 WiFi Extender) It states that it works well for gaming but know that advertising claims are a little hopeful.

Could someone tell me what would be best to install upstairs for our situation? Should I buy another of the same router and put it in a repeater mode or would that extender be the device to install? Do I need something completely different?

Thanks for your time!

 

[kanewolf]

Hi there everyone!

I've got an issue that I just don't know how to move forward with. We have a large three story house that requires more than a single router. Also, we've got a ton of devices connecting to a single router, which I believe is problematic as well. I have a cat5 that makes it upstairs but for some reason whenever I install a second router up there, those connections drop routinely(2 to 5 times per minute for 5-10 seconds at a time). This problem has persisted through multiple routers at both the first floor and the second. I would have loved to use that cable because it would have been the best solution but I just can't figure out the routine drops that have persisted through numerous routers/ISPs so I've got to move on to a solution.

That issue has me looking at a repeater/mesh extender for upstairs. We all game so latency and stable connection are of paramount importance for us. This is the latest router to be purchased(TP-Link AC1750) and will be installing it on the first floor as the primary router. I looked up on the TP-Link website and WiFi Extender(TP-Link AC1750 WiFi Extender) It states that it works well for gaming but know that advertising claims are a little hopeful.

Could someone tell me what would be best to install upstairs for our situation? Should I buy another of the same router and put it in a repeater mode or would that extender be the device to install? Do I need something completely different?

Thanks for your time!

A wired connection back to your primary router will ALWAYS be better than a WIFI repeater. You need to figure out why your ethernet cable is not working.

 

[schwim]

Thanks for your help, Kane!

I'm aware that it is, as indicated in my initial post. I've spent years now trying to find a solution that will allow me to use it but can not get it sorted. Short of tearing into three floors of walls to rewire a connection to the second floor, I don't know what else to try. This is why I asked for the best wireless solution, not the best overall.

If anyone could help with what might work the best as a wireless solution, I would be most grateful.

Thanks for your time!

 

[bill001g]

There is no wireless solution that will work well especially for gaming. Mesh is nothing really special it is mostly just another name for a wifi repeater. They suffer from the same problems of using the same radio to talk to the end clients as talking to the base. There are a very tiny number of mesh systems that have extra dedicated radios to talk but they are very expensive because of the extra hardware. They still have 2 radio links. The more radio links you have the more latency you have and the more chance of interference you have.

Any form of repeater should be a very last option. You need to consider it when any network even a very crappy one is better than no network connection.

If you can not use ethernet then consider powerline networks or moca if you have tv coax.

 

[schwim]

Hi there bill and thanks for the help!

If you can not use ethernet then consider powerline networks

Would this be one of those setups where you plug something into an outlet at the router, then plug in something at the problem area, cabling both ends and using the house wire as the network cable? This would be the device set?

 

[kanewolf]

Hi there bill and thanks for the help!



Would this be one of those setups where you plug something into an outlet at the router, then plug in something at the problem area, cabling both ends and using the house wire as the network cable? This would be the device set?

Those are a good choice for powerline.
To help troubleshoot your ethernet cable, I recommend having one of these -- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004CI9NRM/
Follow the 568B color code, keep your untwisted wire short and verify your 8 wires with the above tester, and 99.998% (a made up statistic) of the time you will have error free gigabit connectivity.

 

[gggplaya]

I have a cat5 that makes it upstairs but for some reason whenever I install a second router up there, those connections drop routinely(2 to 5 times per minute for 5-10 seconds at a time). This problem has persisted through multiple routers at both the first floor and the second.

Is it cat5 or cat5e?? Perhaps your routers are negotiating at 1gbps but if it's cat5 you should only be connecting them at 100mbps. The length of cable might be a bit flaky for a solid gigabit connection with cat5. Try to see if there is a configuration in your router to limit it to 100mbps, or just buy a cheaper access point that has a 100mbps switch in it.

Also, make sure your secondary router is in access point only mode and turn off DHCP in the secondary router. Run the ethernet cable into the switch portion of the access point and allow the primary router to do all the DHCP.

 

[schwim]

Hi there everyone and thanks so much for the knowledge and help!

I've ordered the powerline network adapters but in the meantime, I'm going to reterminate the cable in the wall, ensuring that I've followed the instructions above and am wiring it as 568b. I've also switched the router to access point mode. I'll update with any progress.

Thanks again!

 

[schwim]

I'm back with sad news. All of the changes made no difference. Cut out all the extra cabling that could be gotten rid of, new plug at the master router end(old one was properly wired for 568b), installed new socket and patch cable at access point(old socket was properly wired 568b), plugged it all in, speed test results were great(again) at full throughput speeds and latency to test server under 10ms. Connected to game and discord chat only to suffer the same dropouts that occurred every few minutes.

When these dropouts aren't occurring, the connection is great. Low latency, no slingshots in game, nothing negative. The dropouts are never of long enough duration to interrupt things that don't need a constant connection like SSHFS, ssh, http, ftp, etc. We only notice because of things that need a constant connection.

I'm still waiting on the adapters for the powerline connection. I can't imagine that not working but really would have liked to get it working on the cable so I could return them.

I'll update once the adapters arrive, if anyone has further suggestions about the situation, I'd love to hear it.

Thanks for your time!

 

[gggplaya]

Did you try lowering the connection speed to 100mbps?

 

[digitalgriffin]

Hi there everyone!

I've got an issue that I just don't know how to move forward with. We have a large three story house that requires more than a single router. Also, we've got a ton of devices connecting to a single router, which I believe is problematic as well. I have a cat5 that makes it upstairs but for some reason whenever I install a second router up there, those connections drop routinely(2 to 5 times per minute for 5-10 seconds at a time). This problem has persisted through multiple routers at both the first floor and the second. I would have loved to use that cable because it would have been the best solution but I just can't figure out the routine drops that have persisted through numerous routers/ISPs so I've got to move on to a solution.

That issue has me looking at a repeater/mesh extender for upstairs. We all game so latency and stable connection are of paramount importance for us. This is the latest router to be purchased(TP-Link AC1750) and will be installing it on the first floor as the primary router. I looked up on the TP-Link website and WiFi Extender(TP-Link AC1750 WiFi Extender) It states that it works well for gaming but know that advertising claims are a little hopeful.

Could someone tell me what would be best to install upstairs for our situation? Should I buy another of the same router and put it in a repeater mode or would that extender be the device to install? Do I need something completely different?

Thanks for your time!

You can only have 1 router on a network at a time. The rest of your routers need to be in either bridge or ap mode. The rest of the routers need to be connected to a LAN port on the back of the main router.

 

[schwim]

Did you try lowering the connection speed to 100mbps?

I don't see a way to do that inside the settings for the access point. What would be the problem device that would need this to be set? Both of my routers are gigabit capable(router and access point and the cable is wired cat 5e. Do I still need to slow it down for some reason?

You can only have 1 router on a network at a time. The rest of your routers need to be in either bridge or ap mode. The rest of the routers need to be connected to a LAN port on the back of the main router.

This is exactly how it is set up.

 

[gggplaya]

I don't see a way to do that inside the settings for the access point. What would be the problem device that would need this to be set? Both of my routers are gigabit capable(router and access point and the cable is wired cat 5e. Do I still need to slow it down for some reason?

Does the cable say cat5e on the sheathing? It probably doesn't matter, cheap and poorly manufactured cat5e can act like cat5. The biggest difference between the 2 is that cat5e has more wire twist per meter than cat5. They have the same number of wires but less twists will have more crosstalk interference between the pairs and you'll have connection issues like you describe. Lowering yourself down to cat5 speed of 100mbps may alleviate your connection issues.

If your connection is solid at 100mbps, then I'd say your cable is either cat5 or very cheap and poorly made cat5e that doesn't meet the spec.

 

[schwim]

Does the cable say cat5e on the sheathing? It probably doesn't matter, cheap and poorly manufactured cat5e can act like cat5. The biggest difference between the 2 is that cat5e has more wire twist per meter than cat5. They have the same number of wires but less twists will have more crosstalk interference between the pairs and you'll have connection issues like you describe. Lowering yourself down to cat5 speed of 100mbps may alleviate your connection issues.

If your connection is solid at 100mbps, then I'd say your cable is either cat5 or very cheap and poorly made cat5e that doesn't meet the spec.

It does say 5e but I'm not sure of the quality. I just bought a large spool of it at Lowe's when it was time for the install.

At this point, I hope it's due to cheap cable and that the powerline adapters will get me sorted.

 

[gggplaya]

I forgot also, how did you terminate the ethernet lines in the wall? I normally use punch panel keystone jacks and I've seen a poorly punched terminal cause flaky connections as well.

For the 100mbps speed. as a test, you can connect your laptop or desktop directly to the ethernet line in the wall. You can set the speed manually to 100mbps and see how reliable the connection is.

To set your speed:
Step 1

Click "Start | Control Panel | Network and Internet | Network and Sharing Center."

Step 2

Click the "Change adapter settings" in the left pane, and then right-click the "Local Area Connection" connection and choose "Properties" from the context menu.


Step 3

Click the "Configure" button, and then click the "Advanced" tab.

Step 4

Select "Speed & Duplex" in the Property list.

Step 5

Select 100mbps


Click "OK" to apply and save the new settings.

 

[schwim]

Hi there guys,

Sorry for the delay in replying, this issue has been a total punch in the gut and I'm just at a loss now.

Ordered the powerline adapters and waited the week for them to get here. Plugged them in and one wouldn't power on so they are waiting to get returned. While reading the setup material, I noticed that although it wasn't mentioned on the sales site, in very prominent placement, it stated that the adapters must be set up on the same circuit which if you are familiar with household circuits and their limited span, you realize that it would make these adapters basically pointless, since not many people only need to extend their network the width or length of a single room. If you have a circuit that spans multiple floors, you probably shouldn't be using that electrician for future projects.

So, feeling pretty dejected, I figured I would plug the second router into the back of the primary directly with a small patch cable. My thought process was that we would get at the very least the same quality connection and it would give me a chance to test out the access point and get the upstairs devices using it.

Plugged it in and connected two computers to it, tested and started getting routine dropouts on discord immediately. Reconnected to the primary router that's sitting right beside it and dropouts ceased.

I'm just completely out of ideas and am now chasing my tail. Do I send the second router back even though I had another router behaving the same way in the past? Do I buy new powerline adapters even though the problem persists when the new router is plugged directly into the first? Do I just have the single guy having an issue due to distance buy a better wifi adapter for his computer and stop trying to solve this issue since everyone else connects fine and has no complaints? Should I just scrap both routers and purchase one of those routers with 34 antennae so people throughout the county can use it?

To be clear, we have no dropouts when we connect to the first router. Everyone gets full speeds, nobody gets dropouts, nobody has any complaints. The only reason for the second router was to solve a distance issue for a single user in the house that happens to be at the very corner of the upper floor. He suffers broken discord relaying and high latency for some of his games. It's in no way severe, just something that we wanted to make better.

Suggestions for a next step would be most welcome. Thanks for your time!

 

[gggplaya]

The powerline adapters only need to be on the same circuit breaker PANEL BOX, not the same circuit. If it's on a different panel, it likely won't work unless it's a sub panel.

You might want to get rid of the primary router, for some reason it doesn't like having an access point connected to it. You can get a mesh system(that uses an ethernet backhaul) which are designed and fully tested to work together.

Something like this would work: https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/nighthawk-mesh/mk62.aspx

 

[schwim]

The powerline adapters only need to be on the same circuit breaker PANEL BOX, not the same circuit. If it's on a different panel, it likely won't work unless it's a sub panel.

Thanks very much for the clarification, I assumed that it would operate over the neutral and earth but the instructions really made it sound like it had to be the same circuit.

You might want to get rid of the primary router, for some reason it doesn't like having an access point connected to it.

We're going to do some testing with removing the primary and running only the new router, after taking it off of access point mode. I'll update with any news.

You can get a mesh system(that uses an ethernet backhaul) which are designed and fully tested to work together.

Something like this would work: https://www.netgear.com/home/products/networking/nighthawk-mesh/mk62.aspx

I've looked at this and it brings up a potential issue that may be plaguing me. The documentation for that set states that up to 25 devices can be connected but this house always has more than that at one time(30-40). We've got alexa devices, phones, tablets, laptops, computers, smart tvs, ring/simplisafe, etc. I am wondering if I'm having an issue with too many devices connected at one time. Should I be looking for a router that can handle more connections or maybe consider running two routers independently of each other(instead of access point), splitting the houses devices between the two?

That makes me wonder if using both routers as routers instead of one as an accesspoint might solve the number of connections being too many. Like if the second router gets 20 connections and is wired to the first one's lan port, wouldn't that just be seen as a single connection, allowing me to split the household components between the two, keeping the max connections in check for both?

Thanks!

 

[gggplaya]

You shouldn't need to run 2 routers for only 40-50 connections. But certainly a separate access point will help with wifi congestion.

I would get a router with a decent processor which can handle alot of bandwidth.

What's your internet speed, down and up?

WIth that many people in 1 house, you may want to consider moving to a ubiquity system with a separate router and 2 wifi access points and using FQ_Codel SQM to manage gaming packets if you have gamers in the house. Most ARM processor routers can only handle about 300mbps of FQ_Codel, if you have higher speed internet you'll need to do what I did and build a low power x86 desktop from spare parts and use 2 intel NICs(HP NC110T PCI-E ) for $10 each. Then install OpenWRT and have an x86 router which can handle FQ_Codel beyond gigabit speed. I'm using a cheap and low power Ryzen 3000G processor for my router.

 

[schwim]

My internet is 100mbs down and up I never get the 100 up though, it usually tops out at 50mbs. This is my current router and the ad on that page states it can handle up to 20 connections so I thought that might very well be my problem.

WIth that many people in 1 house, you may want to consider moving to a ubiquity system with a separate router and 2 wifi access points and using FQ_Codel SQM to manage gaming packets if you have gamers in the house. Most ARM processor routers can only handle about 300mbps of FQ_Codel, if you have higher speed internet you'll need to do what I did and build a low power x86 desktop from spare parts and use 2 intel NICs(HP NC110T PCI-E ) for $10 each. Then install OpenWRT and have an x86 router which can handle FQ_Codel beyond gigabit speed. I'm using a cheap and low power Ryzen 3000G processor for my router.

I fear this may be above my paygrade, unfortunately. Also, I'm trying to solve the issue as cheaply as possible since we've laid out a lot recently on wireless cards and the like and the change jar is nearing empty. Do you think setting up a second of the same router as an access point upstairs might resolve the situation with max connections if I split the houses devices between the two?

The thing I wonder is if one is an access point, doesn't that still put all of the burden on the primary router? Would I be better off setting both up as independent wireless routers that handled the ip assignment and the rest without just passing it on to the one router?

I've read so much I've got analysis paralysis. I'm scared to buy anything now lol..

 

[gggplaya]

Oh wow, i've never heard of that brand. Yes, your primary router may be too cheap to handle that many connections. And yes, all of the burden will be placed on the primary router when you connect an access point. That's why you need a primary router with a good processor.

With only 100mbps, you can use a cheaper ARM router for FQCODEL, I'd recommend the Edgerouter X with it's dual core processor. Which is only $60 new, and probably cheaper on ebay. Here's why:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-g2P3R84dw&t=595s


This is of course just a router and does not have wifi, instead you'll need 2 wifi access points to go along with this. You can set both the routers you have as access points, so the edgerouter x would do all the work and the processors of both your routers wouldn't be responsible for much.

 

[schwim]

if you have higher speed internet you'll need to do what I did and build a low power x86 desktop from spare parts and use 2 intel NICs(HP NC110T PCI-E ) for $10 each. Then install OpenWRT and have an x86 router which can handle FQ_Codel beyond gigabit speed. I'm using a cheap and low power Ryzen 3000G processor for my router.

I've been thinking a bit more about this and am wondering if there's a down side to using a higher power processor other than hurting the earth. I have a pc with an i7 and 16gb of ram. If I put two of those cards into it, would that work well as a router? Ii've watched some vids of the process and it seems most people are just running the OS off of a USB stick. After watching them, I'm not confident of the setup process but would be willing to give it a try if it would result in a high performance router.

 

[gggplaya]

Yes, that would be fine if you have a spare PC laying around, though you don't need that much ram. I would probably just drop it to 1 stick of ram to save 2-3watts. I'm using a lower power Athlon 3000g to save power, it uses about 30watts total system power at idle, which is not bad at all. I'd imagine an older core i7 would use like 70-100watts at idle which ((100watts x24 hours)/1000) *0.13 cents per kwh) equates to about $10 a month in electricity. And yes, I'm running it completely headless off a USB stick with no hard drive and boot up is still much quicker than any of my old routers, only takes about 20 seconds. Just using an old case, motherboard, cpu, ram and power supply. Uptime is better than my old Nighthawk R7000 which I used for many years. I've been using this for about a year now, and have yet to force a reboot.

Once you get it up and running with OpenWRT, you'll want to go into System-->Software and click on update list. Then search for luci-app-sqm and install that package. This will give you the library to run FQ_Codel QOS algorithm. Then go to Network-->SQM QOS and configure the que discipline for FQ_Codel or the newer CAKE algorithm. I'm running CAKE and all my dropped packet events have been non-existent since.

Then set your routers as access point mode and plug the ethernet cables into the switch side of those routers, not the WAN port.

 

[schwim]

Yes, that would be fine if you have a spare PC laying around, though you don't need that much ram. I would probably just drop it to 1 stick of ram to save 2-3watts. I'm using a lower power Athlon 3000g to save power, it uses about 30watts total system power at idle, which is not bad at all.

I've got a couple other older computers lying around, would they be better suited to the task?

#1
CPU Intel Core2 Quad CPU Q6600 2.40GHz
6GB ram

#2
CPU Intel Core2 Duo CPU E7500 @ 2.93GHz
6GB ram

Just wondering if one of those might be a better solution for what I'm asking it to do.

 

[bill001g]

This one sure has gone lots of ways. Key will be if either of those 2 already have 2 ethernet ports. If not you are going to have to add a ethernet board. Without digging around in the specs on cpu I don't know but in general a router function does better with faster clock rate cpu, it does not use multiple cpu well.

I have gotten lost in the thread. I though you said it worked ok if you plugged into the main router. The raw number of sessions seldom is a issue. If someone is running bit torrent it might have issue but even then this is more a memory issue. Even very inexpensive routers can pass 1gbit of traffic wan-lan because they have a special software NAT offload feature that bypasses the cpu.

This will not make your wifi problems better. You still need to keep your current routers for the Wifi radios. The number of wifi sessions a device can handle is done in the wifi chips themselves the cpu is not involved much. Using a wifi add in board in a PC works very poorly, I think mostly because of the location of the antenna. When you use a PC as a router you tend to always use some form of AP for your wifi.

Maybe I got lost here most times you only need to use a pc as a router when you need high speed vpn or your are in some way over utilizing a very large internet connection and are trying to use QoS to solve it rather than try to reduce the load or buy a bigger internet connection.