[SOLVED] Fan replacement options

[frusubilam]

A little under a year ago I purchased two ARCTIC P12-120 mm Case Fans, Fan Speed: 1800 RPM , MODEL # ACFAN00118A

Today, I perceived a subtle, high pitch sound, which stopped when I disconnected both fans, but when either is connected by itself, it produces the noise.

A third fan, original with the computer, is three years older than the others, but creates no such sound.

Since both are creating the noise, is this just a coincidence, or could there be something else fan related? I dunno, like whistling thru a vent or something. Just guessing. All the vents are clean.

I liked these fans from the beginning, pretty quiet, but since they are both making noise after only a year, I'm thinking I need to replace with a different brand. Or is this just something one should expect from this example of type and value, particularly since that older fan has outlasted them.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Your original fan probably has a higher quality bearing, and therefore a longer lifespan. The Arctic fans are good performers, but they are cheap, and being cheap fans they come with cheap bearing. Cheap bearings generally don't last all that long ESPECIALLY if this is a system that rarely gets turned off or put to sleep overnight. But, they can certainly fail prematurely as well even under regular circumstances. BOTH of them failing early though, at the exact same time, seems pretty unlikely.

Have you changed anything related to the fan speed or fan curve profile in the BIOS lately? Updated the BIOS or anything that might have changed something?

If we're being honest, I've seen a lot of Arctic fans develop problems prematurely, as compared to a lot of other fan models and brands, but again it seems unlikely for both fans to start doing the exact same thing at the exact same time.

I guess you can't really argue with the fact that both are doing it individually though.

 

[Krag89]

My case came with two Pure Wings 2 140mm from Bequiet! which are extremely silent, I added two Silent Wing 3 high speed 140mm from the same manufacturer, also very quiet and move quite a good amount of air. A few days ago I swapped the ML120 of my AIO for two NF-A12x25 and man do they perform well and in silence, and work just as well as case fans.

But to be fair, price wise you can't do much better than the ARCTIC P12 you had, you could buy 5 of them for the price of a single Noctua or Silent Wings 3

 

[Darkbreeze]

But, you will probably buy TEN of them and run them all into the ground before even one Noctua fan fails. When it comes to fans, it's hard to be the Noctua NF-A15, NF-A14, NF-F12 or any of the Chromax versions of those fans, whether the PWM or DC versions. Also very good are Thermalright, Cryorig, Phanteks, SOME of the BeQuiet fans and SOME of the Corsair fans.

 

[frusubilam]

I just got done cleaning up all the fans, vents, and dusted with air compressor. The fans were very dirty. Now, I'm not hearing that high

When it comes to fans, it's hard to be the Noctua NF-A15, NF-A14, NF-F12 or any of the Chromax versions of those fans, whether the PWM or DC versions. Also very good are Thermalright, Cryorig, Phanteks, SOME of the BeQuiet fans and SOME of the Corsair fans.

I just got done cleaning up all the fans, vents, and dusted with air compressor. The fans were very dirty. Now, I'm not hearing that high pitched noise anymore??? Weird?

i've heard good things about Noctua. I'm not a gamer. I don't need something elaborate. My machine runs anywhere from 29c to 39c when not under stress, so I'm thinking the fan performance is adequate.

If I were to repalce the fans, which model # would you suggest?

 

[OrlyP]

The high-pitched sound is quite normal on the Arctic P12. It starts to make that noise at or around 1,100 RPM, give or take. Outside that RPM, the fan is silent as it can be. You can often play around with your fan curves so that the fans don't stay too long in that RPM. You will still hear it as the fans ramp up or ramp down, but at least they won't be staying in the noise "pain spot" for too long.

Arctic sells a CO model (which stands for Continuous Operation) that is designed for long-term, always-on use. I have one of those in my server now but it's only a few months old. To be specific, the model number is P12 PWM PST CO and it replaced a Noctua P12 that came with an NH-U12P SE2 (from 7 or 8 years ago). The old Noctua fan has developed a sort of wheezing noise so I suspect it has already or nearly reached the end of its life.

TL;DR: If money is no object, Noctua fans all the way. The Arctic fans provides better value for what it does, IMO.

 

[Darkbreeze]

The Arctic fans provides better value for what it does, IMO.

How do you figure it's a better value? Even if you have to only replace an Arctic fan ONCE over the course of five or six years, you'll still be paying more than you would have for the Noctua fan, which is superior in every way.

Cheap fans, are exactly that, cheap. Sure, cheap fans ARE a good choice when starting out if there are budget limitations, but they are not a good choice for the long term. Over the long term a quality fan will perform better, perform much QUIETER and will last three or four times longer than even the best budget fans with cheap bearings will last.

For the price, either of these are about the best 120mm PC fans you can get for any configuration, whether for a case fan, radiator fan or for use on a heatsink. They are also not terribly expensive, at least in the US. Considering how expensive practically every other kind of hardware is right now, these are a steal and are actually less expensive than they were earlier this year.

https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NF-F12-PWM-4-Pin-Premium/dp/B00650P2ZC


https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NF-F12-chromax-Black-swap-Premium-Grade-Quiet/dp/B07654PNFQ

The NF-A12x25 fans are also very good, but right now they are grossly expensive and I don't recommend them. They really aren't any better than the NF-F12 PWM fans anyhow in my opinion.

If you want something less expensive than those, then these would be my next, absolutely best recommendation as an alternative to the NF-F12 for a 120mm fan.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07CG2PGY6?tag=pcpapi-20&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1

If those don't fit somebody's budget, then they don't have any realistic expectation of what hardware should cost and might need to rethink the whole process.

If you are looking for quality 140mm fans, then the NF-A14 PWM fans and NF-A14 PWM chromax.black.swap fans are the best option in my opinion.

 

[OrlyP]

The P12 CO has a 10-year warranty. That says a lot about the manufacturer's position to stand by their product. And still, it costs a lot less than an equivalent Noctua fan.

Noctua, if I'm not mistaken, offers a 6-year warranty. Not bad, but is 4 years shy of Arctic's, so....

 

[Darkbreeze]

Arctic fans, none of them, hold a candle to any of the Noctua fans. I don't care how long the warranty is. A warranty is useless as a measure of product quality if you have to actually use it. I have at least 15 different Noctua fans in various systems of my own that have been running for more than ten years, about six more than have been running for five years and at least two dozen that I've installed in various systems for other people that have been running anywhere from 2 to 12 years, and none of them have had any issues at all. Many of them have outlived the rest of the platform and are carrying on in new systems now.

Most other fans are a secondary consideration to the rest of the system or are bought to "just get by for now". Noctua fans are bought as an investment, and will usually outlast the usefulness of the rest of the hardware and be repurposed into new builds while still providing the same performance as when they were new.

And another thing, those paper specs from Arctic are like, c'mon man. Seriously? 26db while running at 1800rpm? Ok, sure. Right.

When you have to run your fan at 1800rpm to get the same CFM as an equivalent fan at 1500rpm, something is wrong. That kind of brute force to achieve just 54cfm is going to result in a lot more than 26db.

Since there are no reliable reviews of those fans yet, I'll reserve full judgement, but again, my guess is that they are pretty good for a 12 dollar fan, and that's likely about where the comparison ends.

 

[OrlyP]

I am not disputing the fact that Noctua is better than Arctic fans. On sheer quality, it's Noctua. Let's not debate about that.

However, absolute perfection isn't the only metric.

Value is something more personal and subjective. To me, if it's a budget to middle-of-the-scale build, the Arctic fans would be ok but still miles ahead of most other no-name or generic fans. But if it's going to be a showcase build or if it's an important server, then I'd probably consider Noctua.

I have a Noctua NH-U14S (with stock NF-A15 fan) right now in my Ryzen 3600 build. Case fans are currently the cheap ($1.50) ones, which I plan to replace with Arctic P12's eventually.

As for the NH-U12P SE2 in my Plex server, I replaced the Noctua P12 (non-PWM) fan with an Arctic P12 PWM CO pressure-optimized fan because I can get 3 of these for the price of one Noctua A12x25 or F12. I can live with the very slight, virtually imperceptible, increase in noise for the money I save. I'm sure a lot of people would, too. Value.

There have been numerous reviews of this Arctic fan. After I've considered both pros and cons, I still put them around 80-90% of an equivalent Noctua but at a fraction of the price.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Can you link to a reputable, professional review of the Arctic P12 CO? Because I've never been able to find any. And by reputable, I don't mean just any yahoo with a channel or a camera who does an unboxing and has a decibel meter from Amazon. I'm talking about people who do actual reviews, using high end professional gear to accurately measure airflow, static pressure and sound pressure levels on a standardized platform. Anechoic chamber testing is even better, but not particularly essential because only a few testers and reviewers actually have something like that built for this purpose and I don't trust the tests done in similar chambers by manufacturers because they tend to pad their test results in their own favor, which I can't fault them for really, but I don't have to swallow it whole either. LOL.

Anyhow, if there are reputable reviews of any kind out there on that fan model I'd like to read it and bookmark it.

Again though, I think the 14 dollar Noctua NF-P12 redux 1700 PWM fans are a much better investment for a dollar more than the Arctic fan, but that might not hold true in every region or every market. Many of the european markets are much more expensive for Noctua products, which is crazy since Noctua is an Austrian company, although I'm fairly certain that the majority, if not all, of their manufacturing is actually done in Chinese plants just like everybody else. I don't know of any fans really that are manufactured anywhere else, but it's the engineering and the insistence on adhering to those standards of engineering by their manufacturing partners that really makes the difference.

I'll tell you for sure though that I'd almost certainly take an Arctic fan over a lot of other companies out there including most of what is sold by Cooler master, Thermaltake and Antec, just to name a couple.

 

[OrlyP]

I found this respectable yahoo...

View: https://youtu.be/QwftVMGPOiI


I don't know how much more scientific you think it needs to be but since it's an A-B test against its peers, I think it was made well enough. It's not like we're going to use this on a NASA spacecraft.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Nah. That's not even a remotely valid test environment. HOW fans are tested is one of the few things from reviews that I get particularly picky about.

You can't even begin to get valid data when you're running the test in a system that has PSU running, CPU cooler running, drives running, OTHER fans running. Sorry, but that's not how any of the reputable reviewers would ever test fans. I know they are doing "standardized" testing of fans IN the case, over at GN, but it's one of the few things they do over there that I absolutely don't agree with.

This, is how you test fans, and it has nothing to do with NASA. It has to do with getting accurate and relevant numbers if the purpose of the testing isn't just to say "it works" and "in my opinion, it's good", but to instead say "these are the ACTUAL characteristics of the fan with no other factors able to influence the results". As you can see, all of these reputable reviewers use some form of stand alone test stand designed specifically for creating an actual standardized test environment that can't be influenced by the presence of OTHER devices with their own contributed noise levels or even the configuration of the case itself and the highly variable effect of fan grills from each case. Testing done in that way, inside cases, is simply not realistically valid.

Fan Test System, SPCR 2010

A new fan test system for 2010 focuses on the desired end result of fans in a PC: Cooling, as seen in temperature drop. Measured airflow ranks low on measured parameters; noise remains priority number one. No one has tested PC fans this way before. The role of 12V DC axial fans in PCs dates

silentpcreview.com

https://www.overclockers.com/pwm-fan-roundup-twenty-four-120-mm-case-fans-tested/

Noted also, in the fan testing methodology outlined by Anandtech, where they SPEFICALLY reference exactly my point by saying "The addition of far grills, the installation on a cooler, and any other form of obstruction will increase the generated noise, as aerodynamic noise will be added into the environment." which invalidates any testing done in that manner.

How AnandTech Will Test Fans

We will begin testing fans using an Extech HD350 differential manometer with a Pitot tube, an Extech AN200 velocity meter, and a custom apparatus designed for this specific purpose. The apparatus has a mechanism that allows us to test the unobstructed (maximum) volume flow of a fan, the fully obstructed (maximum static) pressure of the fan, and multiple points in between, allowing us to compose the actual P-Q performance chart of any fan. However, we are measuring the actual airflow generated by the fan, not that calculated by our maximum recorded air velocity.

For noise measurements, we are using an Extech HD600 high sensitivity SPL meter. The noise of the fan is measured from 15 centimeters away, not one meter as IEC certifications require, as that would be far too great a distance to measure differences between nearly silent products. Note however that we are measuring the noise level of a fan with its flow unobstructed. The addition of far grills, the installation on a cooler, and any other form of obstruction will increase the generated noise, as aerodynamic noise will be added into the environment.

We also plan on testing fans at their "stock" 12 V PC voltage and at a lower voltage, which will most usually be 7 V. This may not always be practical on some fans (i.e. very low speed fans may have their performance degraded far too much), but when it is we will do so. While it's impossible to state how any fan will perform in every situation, we will be able to provide at least a more rigorous view of each fan's performance. In the meantime, any feedback on our approach to testing or requests for additional tests is welcome.

Further outlined here by Puget systems.

Effects of Grill Patterns on Fan Performance/Noise

Fan grills are a component in a computer that is often underestimated in terms of their contribution to both system noise and airflow. Most often, grills are chosen based on aesthetics with only a small thought towards performance. In this article, we will be examining nine different grills to...

www.pugetsystems.com

And if you really want to get anal about it, then you use some form of anechoic chamber and completely eliminate all outside noise, like this. When you want indisputable results.

But I apologize frusubilam, for taking the thread somewhat off topic. I think all of this has gone beyond the requirements of the thread. I'm done here in that regard.

 

[OrlyP]

It might be worth your while to overthink and overanalyze your fan purchases, but for most people, it's usually the CPU, motherboard, and memory that are higher up the rung that warrants more attention in selecting, IMO.

Again, I don't disagree with your choice. Noctua makes GREAT fans and coolers, among others. And in case you missed it, I use Noctua coolers myself. They're essentially a master of their craft. But the fact remains that they are pricey. There's such a thing as diminishing returns.... what, pay 3x more to get that last cu-ft/hr of air flow or cut down a dB of noise?

It's just that you keep laying it on too thick. If it were up to you, everybody will be driving German cars, wearing Rolex watches, and eating at three-Michelin star restaurants.... burning the ear off people why you chose this and that over the more affordable options. Enough of that. There are things in life that are equally nice that won't break the bank.

Apologies as well to the OP.

 

[Darkbreeze]

I don't think everybody needs to buy Noctua fans, and I've made that clear throughout my statements. That is not my intention is that everybody needs to be a fan snob, merely I was addressing the fact that you seemed to think the differences between fans was either inconsequential or non-existent, and that was based on what I consider to be a less than acceptable (factually, do to a lack of proper standards) review, but I guess it's not necessary to go into that here. If you wish I'd be glad to discuss it in a thread dedicated to it elsewhere, else we'll just agree to disagree and carry on as before.

 

[frusubilam]

But I apologize frusubilam, for taking the thread somewhat off topic.

Absolutely no need for that, guys. I come here to learn. For expert advice and info. I certainly got my money's worth on this subject.

Fascinated and entertained by your debate.

I have followed the conversation with a reasonable understanding (I think), but I only have a rudimentary grasp of all the technical jargon I have been presented with here, and wherever I shop.

Please address this. As a novice with basic needs, when examining the product details presented by sellers, I figured "RPM" would be the logical feature to use to make comparisons. But it seems that, because of certain variables, that is not necessarily valid.

Beyond price, is there a single most important factor to focus on?

BTW, that "Noctua NF-P12 redux-1700 PWM, High Performance Cooling Fan, 4-Pin, 1700 RPM (120mm, Grey)" , really looks like it fits the bill. and priced right.

Almost forgot. I have a 3 pin, that one is 4 pin. No problem?

 

[OrlyP]

Beyond price, is there a single most important factor to focus on?

Let me take a stab at this... beyond cost, I look at the following:

1. Airflow vs noise - The fan needs to be silent but still provide the needed airflow
2. Reliability - It should last for years, ideally, for the life of the PC
3. Support/Warranty - For when it does break down, like any mechanical device eventually does

Unfortunately, it can't be just one "single most important factor". As Darkbreeze succinctly put it, you can really get technical with it. But to answer your question, these three things (beyond cost) are the factors I look at when purchasing fans.

 

[Darkbreeze]

For me it really breaks down into two choices, generally.

First choice, I'm broke or have little money and I want to get the best fan I can for the least amount of money. In this case, it really depends on how many fans are needed and what the system configuration consists of, before a good recommendation on what the best options are should be. Usually though, you really wouldn't want to go much below the cost of those Arctic or that 14 dollar Noctua fan that were both suggested. If you have to (Not YOU, just, whoever) though sometimes you have to.

ANY fan, if a fan is needed, is better than no fan, so long as it is facing the right direction and can move air. That is THE most important thing regarding fans.

Second choice, money isn't really a big deal and you want one of three things. Either the absolute best performance, or a very silent fan, or some decent combination of the two. In this case, you will generally opt for something like a top end Noctua or Thermalright fan, or one of the Corsair non-RGB Maglev fans, or even possibly something industrial like the Noctua iPPC industrial or a good Delta fan, if performance only is the important thing. If silence is the #1 consideration, especially if you want both performance AND silence, I do not believe there are any other fans on the market that can compete with Noctua in that regard.

There are fans that are quieter, and there are fans that offer higher performance. There are NOT any fans that can offer the SAME level of silence at the same level of noise normalized performance or at the same general RPM, as what Noctua fans can offer. At the same CFM or RPM, I don't know of any other fans that will match them for pure sound pressure levels.

Also, for the MOST part, there are really not any fans on the market that HAVE RGB and can compete in any meaningful way when it comes to static pressure, CFM and noise levels, as practically ANY halfway decent fan that doesn't have RGB. There are a couple that are semi-ok, but that's about it. Even when it's the exact same model, but one has RGB and the other doesn't, the non-RGB model will have the better specs in every case.

 

[frusubilam]

I'm going with the "Noctua NF-P12 redux". Your great insights and recommendations, over 5000 ratings, 88% 5 stars. I'm sold.

Many thanks. Much appreciated.🆒

 

[Darkbreeze]

👍

 

[frusubilam]

One more question, please.

The answer may seem obvious, but I wanna make sure.

I'm curious about fan management.

If I observe a fan not rotating, on a unit like mine which has no added/third party fan control management, is that normal at times, or is that a bad sign?

Have you changed anything related to the fan speed or fan curve profile in the BIOS lately? Updated the BIOS or anything that might have changed something?

I don't remember for sure. I had some temperature concerns in the past, so I looked into solutions, some of which Involved the BIOS. I don't believe I changed anything there, but perhaps you could tell me where to look and what to look for.

The oldest of my three fans stops rotating at times, while the others are spinning, If I help the fan by manually spinning it a little, it slowly stars back going, until it appears to be running at a normal rate.

I just shut down and restarted the computer, I observed the fan in question start very slowly. gradually gaining momentum, and finally getting back to what looked comparable to the other fan rates.

 

[Darkbreeze]

The first thing I'd do is reset the BIOS to the default settings by going into the BIOS and on the Exit tab, choosing the option to load the default settings.

The second thing I'd do is find and read, or watch, a walk through of the BIOS settings for your particular motherboard model or one close to it.

What model is your board?

 

[frusubilam]

Motherboard Model: ASRock Z170 Pro4.
BIOS Manufacturer: American Megatrends
BIOS Version: P7.30

Could BIOS settings single out one of three fans causing those types of behaviors?

 

[OrlyP]

Try switching the connectors between the problematic fan and one of the working chassis fan. If the same fan still stops, then that fan is likely defective.

But if the problem moved to a different fan, the issue may lie with the motherboard or your fan settings/curve for that specific chassis fan header.

Your motherboard has the following fan headers, most of which should be available for control via Smart Fan Control or Fan-Tastic Tuning under Hardware Health Event Monitoring Screen in BIOS:

CPU_FAN1 (4-pin) *
CHA_FAN1 (4-pin) *
CHA_FAN2 (4-pin) **
CHA_FAN3 (3-pin) ***

Note:
* These two connectors can auto-detect if the fan is 3- or 4-pin (voltage or PWM, respectively) for speed control
** This connector is 4-pin only for PWM speed control. 3-pin fan will be fixed speed only.
*** 3-pin mode only. You can only monitor the RPM and probably no speed control over it (fixed speed)

For CPU_FAN1, you can modify the fan curve but it's going to use the CPU temperature as source
For CHA_FAN1 and CHA_FAN2, you can also modify the fan curve AND choose a temperature source for each individually
Nothing written on the manual on how to control CHA_FAN3. As mentioned in Note ***, this is likely a fixed-speed fan header.

 

[Darkbreeze]

BIOS settings can cause just about ANY kind of problem you can think of. And yes, it is possible for the BIOS settings to have an effect on only one fan header.

As OrlyP has mentioned, unfortunately this board DOES seem to have fairly poor cooling header support, but really static 3 pin fan headers was still pretty common on lower end boards back when the Z170 chipset was released. Chassis fan 3 WILL only be a constant static 12v , so any fan connected to that header will run ONLY at a constant non-variable full speed at all times. Some PWM fans might work with such a header, but in reality you are much better off running only a 3 pin fan connected to that header, and sorry I didn't realize earlier you had a single 3 pin header and that you mentioned one of your fans was a three pin fan.

I think at this point we need to identify a few things.

The two fans that you were having problems with, were BOTH of those fans connected to four pin headers, and the fan that came with the case is connected to the three pin header? Or where is each of these fans connected to on the motherboard?

My thought is that perhaps there is a problem with the PWM controller on the motherboard and that is why your two PWM fans have begun making noise. One option would be, if you want to use all PWM fans, just don't use that 3 pin fan header and get a PWM fan splitter cable to connect two of your PWM fans to one of the two four pin PWM headers on your board.