Fans in Series and Fans in Parallel

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On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:50:19 -0700, "Timothy Daniels"
<TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:

>"Bob Adkins" wrote:
>
>> Grills are for protecting fingers and blocking RF to meet
>> FCC home requirements.
>
>
> 'By "Dave". Hello, "Bob". <It's the sock puppet tag team!> :)
>
> "FCC home requirements"? "Home requirements"?
> Hey, go back to Australia. There's no FCC home
> requirements. Good joke, though.

Thanks for playing. Bye now.

plonk-olla
 
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"David Maynard" wrote:
> Back to creating myths again I see.
>
>
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=47&PART=15&SECTION=3&YEAR=2001&TYPE=TEXT


That defines ALL personal computers, whether they are used in
a home or a commercial environment, as Class B Digital Devices.
Where does it differentiate between home and commercial
requirements of personal computer? It *doesn't*. They're both
the same - by definition! The FCC requirements for personal
computers do not differentiate between home and commercial usage.
Nice stretch, though.

*TimDaniels*
 
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On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:50:19 -0700, "Timothy Daniels"
<TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:


> 'By "Dave". Hello, "Bob". <It's the sock puppet tag team!> :)

He who talks to sock puppets gets lint in his mouth. That would be you. I
don't need a sock puppet.

> "FCC home requirements"? "Home requirements"?
> Hey, go back to Australia. There's no FCC home
> requirements. Good joke, though.

FCC Class "B" is the home standard, and is more stringent about RF noise
than "A", which is for businesses. hAHa!

>> Turbulence is never desirable. It always lessens airflow and
>> reduces heat transfer efficiency from heat sink to air.
>
>
> Of course turbulence lessens airflow! By digging down to the

I violently agree with you!

How many beers have you had Tim?

Although I agree with most of what you have said, I don't think I like you.

> surface it's flowing past, it contacts the surface and is "dragged",
> i.e. it's slowed down by its contact - the very *reason* why
> it increases heat removal. The drag is a sign of the contact,
> and an indicator of the efficiency of heat removal. Mere
> "airflow" past an object is merely air flowing past an object,
> not removal of heat. Removal of heat takes *contact*.
> Turbulence is therefore certainly desirable because it eliminates
> laminar flow - that flow which flows smoothly parallel to the
> surface and which does not contact the surface that it passes.
> For cooling, laminar flow is bad, turbulent flow is good.

Being a pilot, I know a little bit about laminar airflow. And as everyone
knows by now, there's a ton of hot air coming from your general direction.

Now sober up and pay attention.

Laminar airflow transfers heat better for several reasons.

Turbulence gives an air mass uneven pressure. Areas of low pressure within
turbulent air transfer heat less efficiently than the higher and more
consistent pressure in laminar airflow. Turbulent air often flows past an
object REPEATEDLY. Laminar airflow never re-visits the same object. A mass
of air flowing in a laminar fashion flows more quickly for a given amount of
power input. More air mass, more potential for heat removal. To cooling, the
mass of air can be the most important thing. Turbulent air fights itself,
and loses energy.

Settle down and think a little, and I may end up being one of your biggest
fans.

Bob

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"Bob Adkins" wrote:
> FCC Class "B" is the home standard, and is more
> stringent about RF noise than "A", which is for
> businesses. hAHa!


True. And the requirement for personal computers
makes no differentiation because, by definition,
it is a Class B Digital Device. So there is no
"home" standard versus "commercial" standard
for a personal computer.

Now for the truly erroneous:

> Laminar airflow transfers heat better for several reasons.
>
> Turbulence gives an air mass uneven pressure. Areas
> of low pressure within turbulent air transfer heat less
> efficiently than the higher and more consistent pressure


Wrong. Air has to contact the surface of an object
in order for there to be heat transfer. Laminar flow
is just a layers of moving air sliding one over the other.
Only the thin "bottom" layer - the layer as thick as
the mean distance between collisions of the air molecules -
has any contact with the surface. Turbulence increases
the transport of molecules that have contacted the surface
and it carries them up to the freer-flowing air, replacing
them with cooler air. Turbulence is the up-down elevator
for the transport of air that has undergone heat transfer.


> in laminar airflow. Turbulent air often flows past an
> object REPEATEDLY. Laminar airflow never re-visits
> the same object.


Ideally, laminar flow never visits the object at all! It
just flows past the boundary layer. Only the scrubbing
action of turbulence and convection cause bulk transport
of heated or cooled air from the surface. Do you want
to rely on convection? No? Then you have to use
turbulence.

Since there is no truly laminar flow in nature, only
approximations to it, *lousy* laminar flow does transfer
heat. And so, a "one big hole" would work to a degree.
But lousy laminar flow does not transfer heat as well as
*really* lousy laminar flow, i.e. turbulent flow. And so,
case cooling designers assure that the air entering a case
is turbulent. The goal is not to just get air *through* the
case. The air must *contact* the heated components -
not just slide by in laminar flow.


> A mass of air flowing in a laminar fashion flows more quickly
> for a given amount of power input.


Exactly correct.


> More air mass, more potential for heat removal.


Incomplete statement! That should be worded "more
mass in *contact* with a surface per unit time", i.e. mass
that has velocities that are normal ("perpendicular") to the
surface as well as parallel to the surface, i.e. turbulently
flowing mass, so that mass that has taken on heat or
given up heat can be quickly replaced by mass that has
not undergone heat transfer.


> To cooling, the mass of air can be the most important
> thing. Turbulent air fights itself, and loses energy.


Your flight training is showing. For flight (at least for
wings in normal angles of attack) and for propellers,
laminar flow is efficient and therefore desirable. But it
is efficient because it involves the least contact of air
with the outer surface of the aircraft per unit of time.
The aircraft slides along inside layers of laminarly-flowing
air, each layer acting like a lubricant for the layer next
to it. Only in high-incident flight, such as in kites and
humming birds, is turbulence (in the form of large vortices)
of value and of essential importance.

But for the very reason that laminar flow is energy-efficient
for travel through a fluid medium, it is INefficient for transfer
of heat between a surface and the fluid. For there to be
transfer of heat, there must be contact, and turbulence
provides the most contact per unit time. Laminar flow is
just flow. It implies little contact. Turbulent flow implies
contact - and the potential for heat transfer.


> Settle down and think a little, and I may end up being one
> of your biggest fans.


I don' need no steenkeeng fahns. I got turbulence. :)

*TimDaniels*
 
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"Bob Adkins" makes a blooper:
> Laminar airflow transfers heat better for several reasons.


OK, let's start with a source a homebuider would
appreciate - http://www.overclockers.com/tips90/

A quote from the above webpage:

"Turbulent air cools better.
Say, for sake of argument, you have a simple tube
with a fan in the middle. The fan pulls air from
one side of the tube, and blows into the other.
If you have a hot component on the exhaust side
of the fan, it will be more efficiently cooled
than on the intake side. This is because the air
on the exhaust side of the fan is more turbulent.
For lack of a better explanation, the loops and
whorls of turbulent air moving across the surface
pick up more heat. The effective surface area of
the object is increased. (Actually, it was explained
to me by saying the effective surface area of the
air is increased.) The total volume of airflow
remains the same, but turbulent air just cools better."

If you want to pay more than $100 for a book or
monograph on heat transfer, you can find a multitude
of very academic books on turbulent flow and heat
transfer. Here's a blurb about one in the following
webpage -
http://www.begellhouse.com/books/497d60632054f587,6ddfe1a32b58c789.html

"Turbulent flow is the most common form of motion
of liquids and gases playing the role of the heat-
transfer medium in thermal systems. The complexity
of turbulent flow and the importance of hydrodynamics
and heat transfer in practice inspired continuing
research for methods of efficient heat augmentation
by the Lithuanian Energy Institute. The solution of
this problem was directly linked with the determination
of the reaction of flow in the boundary layer to the
effect of various factors and heat transfer rate under
given conditions. The investigated factors included
elevated degree of turbulence of the external flow as
well as strong acceleration and turbulization of flow
near the wall by surface roughness. The material in
this volume shows that it is possible to control the
efficiency of turbulent transfer when the vortical
structure of the turbulent flow is known."

You think this investigation of augmentation of
turbulent flow is to *reduce* heat transfer? I don't
think so. But read the book to be sure. :)

And here's a nice little webpage -
http://www.cougarlabs.com/cool2.html . It's about
water cooling, but it applies to air cooling as well.
Here's a quote from it:

"Boundary Layers
When there is fluid flow across a surface, a velocity
boundary layer must develop. If the flow is in the
'laminar' flow regime, then the flow velocity in the
fluid at the surface is zero. A boundary layer is
formed, within which the shear stresses and velocity
gradients are large. At sufficient distance from the
surface, these same shear stresses and velocity gradients
become negligible."

"The problem, then, is this (simplistically): When
atoms/molecules strike the surface, they take on the
velocity of the surface (zero) and, to an extent, the
temperature of the surface. If these atoms/molecules
were to simply "get out of the way" to be replaced by
other (colder) atoms/molecules, then we could imagine
a great deal of heat being carried away."

"In addition to the velocity boundary layer, if there
is heat being carried away, then there must also be a
thermal boundary layer. Whereas the velocity boundary
layer was characterized by shear and velocity gradients,
the thermal boundary layer is characterized by temperature
gradients and heat transfer."

"Laminar, Transition and Turbulent
For convective heat transfer to work well, we need to
get the heat energy out into the flowing coolant.
Turbulence will do this for us."

"At low flow velocities, we can visualize 'streamlines'
along which the particles of the fluid actually move,
and transport is dominated by diffusion. However, as
the flow velocity becomes larger and larger, fluctuations
and irregularities will force the flow to become turbulent.
In between the extremes of laminar flow and turbulent flow,
we have a transition region where diffusion and turbulent
mixing are of about equal importance. Finally, in the
turbulent portion of the flow, transport is dominated by
turbulent mixing."


Need something more explicit? Try downloading this
..pdf document:
http://www.ceere.org/beep/docs/FY2002/Turbulent_Flow_in_Enclosure.pdf

Here is a quote:

"In engineering applications, turbulence often displays apparent
differences from laminar flows. Comparatively speaking, turbulent
flows often lead to higher transport rate of momentum, energy and
mass than laminar flows. These features are widely made use of in
energy systems in industry. For example, turbulence enhancers such
as ribs are added to cooling systems of turbine blades and micro-
electronic devices to create more turbulent motions so that the
overall heat transfer efficiency can be improved."


There's a whole lot more, especially if you want to pay
for the information, but you get the idea -

Turbulent flow is better than laminar flow for cooling warm surfaces.

*TimDaniels*
 
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Timothy Daniels wrote:
> "David Maynard" wrote:
>
>>Back to creating myths again I see.
>>
>>
>
> http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=47&PART=15&SECTION=3&YEAR=2001&TYPE=TEXT
>
>
> That defines ALL personal computers, whether they are used in
> a home or a commercial environment, as Class B Digital Devices.
> Where does it differentiate between home and commercial
> requirements of personal computer? It *doesn't*. They're both
> the same - by definition! The FCC requirements for personal
> computers do not differentiate between home and commercial usage.
> Nice stretch, though.

In the first place, you didn't say anything about 'differentiation' when
you claimed there were no home requirements. You simply said there were
none, and the fact is that there are. Listen closely, you were WRONG.

Secondly, either you're blind, too damn lazy to read, or a liar (your
propensity for snipping out the things which clearly show you're wrong
tends to suggest the latter), because it clearly specifies what qualifies
under the 'home' classification and what doesn't, and the fact that PCs can
qualify in both categories, meaning they must meet the more stringent
requirements of both, doesn't alter the fact that there ARE 'home'
requirements listed in both intent and by the very word "home."

>
> *TimDaniels*
>
 
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On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:56:16 -0700, "Timothy Daniels"
<TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:

>"Bob Adkins" wrote:
>> FCC Class "B" is the home standard, and is more
>> stringent about RF noise than "A", which is for
>> businesses. hAHa!
>
>
> True. And the requirement for personal computers
> makes no differentiation because, by definition,
> it is a Class B Digital Device. So there is no
> "home" standard versus "commercial" standard
> for a personal computer.

Tim, you can buy computers that are not certified for Class B. They cost
about 5 bucks less, but you can buy them.

> Now for the truly erroneous:
>
>> Laminar airflow transfers heat better for several reasons.
>>
>> Turbulence gives an air mass uneven pressure. Areas
>> of low pressure within turbulent air transfer heat less
>> efficiently than the higher and more consistent pressure
>
>
> Wrong. Air has to contact the surface of an object

No, you are wrong Tim.

Here's the ultimate in laminar airflow: That would be a gas passing through
a tube. Contact is the most intimate possible. The only way to improve upon
that would be to have extruded longitudinal fins inside the tube. Turbulence
is a nightmare to the HVAC industry. They work very hard to eliminate it. So
do the automotive and aircraft industries. Turbulence inside an aircraft
cowl can cause catastrophic overheating.

Bob

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"Bob Adkins" wrote:
> Tim, you can buy computers that are not certified for Class B.
> They cost about 5 bucks less, but you can buy them.


Then, by definition, they are not personal computers - at least
not in the United States.


> Here's the ultimate in laminar airflow: That would be a gas
> passing through a tube. Contact is the most intimate possible.


Gas passing through a tube can be quite laminar. The layers
form as cylinders, the fastest cylinder is in the center, the slowest
cylinder is outermost, nearest the walls of tube. Without turbulence,
the cylinders of fluid slide past each other. With turbulence, they
intermix with each other and with the walls of the tube. It is the
turbulent flow that brings most fluid near the walls of the tube
to aide the transfer of heat. In laminar flow, the outermost cylinder
is the boundary layer, each layer acting as an insulator to the next
inner layer, allowing the least heat transfer for the center of the flow.

*TimDaniels*





The only way to improve upon
> that would be to have extruded longitudinal fins inside the tube. Turbulence
> is a nightmare to the HVAC industry. They work very hard to eliminate it. So
> do the automotive and aircraft industries. Turbulence inside an aircraft
> cowl can cause catastrophic overheating.
>
> Bob
>
> Remove "kins" to reply by e-mail.
 
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On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 01:54:08 -0700, "Timothy Daniels"
<TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:

>
>Turbulent flow is better than laminar flow for cooling warm surfaces.
>

It might or it might not be relevant to this thread:

as reported on CBC radio Quirks and Quarks:

'Flying whales' : http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/03-04/jun12.html

Mimicking humpback whale flippers may improve airplane wing design:
http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/verfahrenstechnologie/bericht-29118.html

If it's not relevant, at least you might find it interesting.

Geo
 
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On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:27:26 -0700, "Timothy Daniels"
<TDaniels@NoSpamDot.com> wrote:


> Gas passing through a tube can be quite laminar. The layers
> form as cylinders, the fastest cylinder is in the center, the slowest
> cylinder is outermost, nearest the walls of tube. Without turbulence,

That's right Tim. And just why does the gas slow down near the tubing walls?
Could it be because of intimate contact and friction? Eh?

Bob

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On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:46:41 GMT, "GEO" Me@home.here wrote:


>Mimicking humpback whale flippers may improve airplane wing design:
>http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/verfahrenstechnologie/bericht-29118.html
>
> If it's not relevant, at least you might find it interesting.

It's interesting to note that for flight, perfect laminar flow causes too
much drag. In heat transfer, one can not have too much drag.

Bob

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"Bob Adkins" wonders:
> "Timothy Daniels" wrote:
>
> > Gas passing through a tube can be quite laminar. The layers
> > form as cylinders, the fastest cylinder is in the center, the slowest
> > cylinder is outermost, nearest the walls of tube. Without turbulence,
>
> That's right Tim. And just why does the gas slow down near the
> tubing walls? Could it be because of intimate contact and friction?
> Eh?


Exactly right. The gas nearest the wall of the tube is the slowest
because of friction (due to contact) with the wall. That layer is
known as the boundary layer - a layer that barely moves and
which acts as an insulator between the wall and the faster moving
fluid in the center. The result is very poor transfer of heat between
the fluid farthest from the wall (in the center of the tube) and the fluid
in the boundary layer next to the wall. If turbulence were introduced,
there would be more exchange of mass (i.e. fluid) between layers,
and the otherwise untouched center layer would be better able to
exchange heat with the wall of the tube.

*TimDaniels*