FarCry's PS 3.0 support

uber_m0j0 · Apr 21, 2004

After reading this story

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15442

I was kinda blown away. I thought that PS 3.0 was relient on DX10, didn't know it could run with DX9 tech. Guess I must have got my facts wrong....

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cleeve · Apr 21, 2004

I believe PS 3.0 is officially part of DX 9.0b, which is to be released... soon?

I can't wait to see what it does for far cry, because it will have huge consequences on the next-gen GPU wars:

1- Will it offer image quality? If so, how much better?

2- Will it offer identical image quality, with the major benefit being speed?

3- Or will it be a combination of the two? And to what extent?

Once these questions are answered, we'll start to get a hint of an idea wether or not this whole PS 3.0 thing is going to have a huge, or insignificant, impact on the NV40 vs R420 war.

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ChipDeath · Apr 21, 2004

I'll be very interested to see if there's any real difference between 2.0 and 3.0 (like there was between 1.4 and 2.0 in FarCry).

Remains to be seen if Nvidia can make up for it by compromising IQ with dubious drivers elsewhere :lol:
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uber_m0j0 · Apr 21, 2004

DX 9.0b is already out....

I agree that PS3.0 could have some major implications for the Nvidia vs ATi war. I think that if PS 3.0 starts to be the trend, now that FarCry is using it, ATi could really suffer from a lack of PS 3.0 support.

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 21, 2004

Actually I believe Cleeve meant DX9.0C which was originally misnamed DX9.1. It uses PS/VS3.0.

As for the utility, there is no indication yet that there is a difference or advanatge to using PS 3.0 in FarCRy. All screenies and video so far compared the FX5950's using PS1.1 to the GF6800 using PS3.0, there may be no difference between PS2.0 and PS3.0 in FarCry, I haven't seen anything yet. For all I know the differences would even be for PS1.1 vs 1.4.

I think it's a little early to tel whether or not PS3.0 support is only a bullet-point/check box item or whether it will be exploited or not. Remember that the PS3.0 support for FarCRy was an add-on, not native to the original code, so even any possible efficienies may be not fully exploited yet.

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kinney · Apr 21, 2004

Crytek said it took 3 weeks to add PS3.0 to the game code..
what this means or can be extrapolated from this piece of info I dont know.
Just wanted to throw it out there.

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cleeve · Apr 22, 2004

I would imagine that if it's that quick to implement, the extent to which it will be used will be limited. A shot in the dark, I'll guess the application will be to make existing shader ops more efficient... that is to say, identical image quality but more speed! Which is still pretty damn good.

Still, it would be pretty damn amazing if all of a sudden the bump maps in far cry became actual displacement maps.... (drool)

A bit of dreaming there, but if the 6800 can pull off some enhancements of any kind with a short-development feat like this, it's certainly a feather in the 6800's cap.

I imagine itll be implemented in-game through an "Ultra-high" lighting quality setting. Currently, the high-quality setting uses PS 1.1 I believe, and the very-high quality lighting setting uses PS 2.0 (which looks VERY nice, a noticable jump in shading on certain objects, especially specular highlights)

P.S. Yeah, I meant DX 9.0c. Doh! Not available to the public yet...

[EDIT] here is the link that compares PS 1.1 (the high setting) to PS 2.0 (the VERY HIGH setting) in Far Cry: <A HREF="http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTk5LDM=" target="_new">http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTk5LDM=</A>

Here is a good link to a screenshot that really highlights the differences:

<A HREF="http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTA3ODY4ODY1ODdjWGRUZWROTFZfM185X2wuanBn" target="_new">http://www.hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTA3ODY4ODY1ODdjWGRUZWROTFZfM185X2wuanBn</A>

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 22, 2004

Yeah I'm just not sure if we will get all the benifits, as it seems to be more of an afterthought to possibly 'add' efffects (still haven't seen diff between PS2/3 yet though, but wouldn't be surprised if there were some minor effects [maybe even major ones]). What it looks like now is what they did with the GunMetal 2 benchmark (unfortunately they didn't do it to the actual game) and simply add a little glitter powder to the already completed engine.

I think the benifits of PS 3.0 may be shader replacement that reduce passes etc, and I don't think that has been done yet, as something like that I would guess would require much more work than just a couple of weeks. I think you'd have to create a whole new path to make the most of what is on tap. I do expect good things from PS3/VS3, but I need more info and definitely some good screenies, before deciding on anything just yet.

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GeneticWeapon · Apr 22, 2004

I do expect good things from PS3/VS3, but I need more info and definitely some good screenies, before deciding on anything just yet.

Exactly. For all of the expert speculation I've seen going on else where, it is just too darn early to make any bold statement's as to whether or not we will get an IQ boost out of ps/vs 3.0.

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flamethrower205 · Apr 22, 2004

Ooo, I want a pink feather in my hat

I have a kid lined up for an FX6800 +-U at school now, so we're gonna wait and ima build his comp. My fee: $400, and I get to play with it

hehehehe.

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 22, 2004

Yeah, and from all the talk from those same experts, including interviews with actual employees of ATI and nV, turning a PS2.0 based game into a true PS3.0 based game that exploits all the benifits of PS3.0/VS3.0 coding, would require so much rework as to be not worth the effort (basically like coding a whole new game, so why bother without making a whole new game). The benifits of a tweak would be minimal, but so would the work. Whereas a re-work would be very labour intensive and offer only slightly more benifit to a small small portion of card owners. Definitely not worth it right now.

However I would expect any sequel/refresh/expansion-pack/etc to get the full treatment because it would be essentially a new game. And like many people say, all the benifits may not be exploitable yet because even the GF6800U as powerful as it is is still far to slow to use things like dynamic branching, etc.

Granted, it's nice to have features, but it does have to be at a worthwhile tradeoff. I think the Parhelia is feature-rich (no surprise there), but those features don't make up for what you lose in performance.

Still I would love to see the full implementation of the shadows and the OGL extensions like we discussed before. Now THAT's a tangible benifit with little extra work, and a potential performance INCREASE IMO.

Even so, gotta wait for that one too.

Maybe we need a vacation and then come back when there's more than just flotsam and jetsam to discuss.

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kinney · Apr 22, 2004

There must be some benefit, contrary to your expert consultation that I havent seen. Because why waste time/money implementing Shader 3.0 if it does nothing?
It isnt for PR, because even out of the enthusiast community this would encourage very few to see games like Far Cry to add PS3.0... I just dont see much of a PR benefit.. assuming as you are essentially saying that it might be useless to add in such a feature.

We'll all find out soon if it improves shader performance (which is all I care about), or as an added benefit improves IQ a bit as well.
Far Cry and NV need to update and finalize some things a bit so we can get definitive shader comparison screens.

I'm sure that Xeon will do such when he recieves his 6800 Ultra. I wont have mine until PCX is out on one of the platforms (predicting June).

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GeneticWeapon · Apr 22, 2004

Maybe we need a vacation and then come back when there's more than just flotsam and jetsam to discuss.

What?...but I'm learning to be a great fanboy here!(Kinney is teaching a great class right now

)

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GeneticWeapon · Apr 22, 2004

Still I would love to see the full implementation of the shadows and the OGL extensions like we discussed before.

Waiting OpenGL 2.0, which will have HLSL imbedded into it's core. We're still currently on 1.5 and it only exposes HLSL as an ARB Extension....I'm excited about thing's to come.

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 22, 2004

First, even in the Inquirer's statements there's a mention of 'TWIMTBP' program, and how this is 'revolutionary'. Yet despite all of thise revolutionary support, there's no screenies showing benifti of PS3.0 over PS2.0 in Far Cry. For all it's supposed to bring you would think with the number of reviewers reviewing the game and card and have reviewed the game with previous generations of cards, you would have seen some glaring, "VOILA" instances by now.

Wasn't the first exposure of these PS3.0 features supposed to be in tha last patch? So if they are astounding, then there should be something to show for it. Performance wise the performance in Far Cry particularly (and almost exclusively) is a let down compared to the large jumps in so many other games. I'll still wait for more info, but I haven't seen anyone put forth anything more than a bullet-point argument so far. And depending on the time and effort, why wouldn't a TWIMTBP partner do something to try and showcase a technology, despite the fact that it may be ahead of it's time.

Time will tell.

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 22, 2004

I'm excited about thing's to come.

Yes, and that's always the problem, I don't wanna wait anymore damn it! Freakin' delays! Wasn't the 2.0 standards decided upon last year (like weeks before the actual launch of 1.5?). Maybe that's just what it seems like with all the talk.

2003 was the year of the delayed launch dates, I just hope that doesn't remain a treand for 2004. Hopefully with the launch of a succesful NV40 that won't be the case.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

dhlucke · Apr 22, 2004

What will you do if the 6800 is delayed?

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GeneticWeapon · Apr 22, 2004

I'll be very interested to see if there's any real difference between 2.0 and 3.0 (like there was between 1.4 and 2.0 in FarCry).

Wavey Dave B from Beyond3D said this...

OK. AFAIK there are no qualatitive differences between the SM3.0 and SM2.0 paths in Far Cry. The SM3.0 path does use vertex instancung whuch will improve NV4x's vertex shader performance in comparison to not using it.

<A HREF="http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11754&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20" target="_new">Quoted from here.</A>

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 22, 2004

Cool thanks. Now with no hockey games tonight I will finally have time to read when I get home! Yeah!

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uber_m0j0 · Apr 22, 2004

So my replies to my post

*holds back tears* I feel so loved

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 22, 2004

Not so worried about the GF6800.

I'm concerned about the NV45 and R423, and supposedly the R423 has been delayed a slight bitmore. And won't arrive until July-August! Main thing is I want one when my 939 PCI-EX equipped mobo is ready!

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dhlucke · Apr 22, 2004

Is it worth waiting for pci-ex? Did you see my thread in the other section?

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Apr 22, 2004

No I did not see your thread, but it is worth it to me.

Just a personal decision. Likely this card is either the horse I ride to DX10/Longhorn, or a bridge card between now and the R500AIW-HD series or something similar from nV (with an extra helping of Banana Gelato of course).

Why buy a new AGP equipped mobo, when this is the last generation of premier parts for them? Since Socket 939 and PCI-EX are occuring simultaneously, why not get on board. Someone's gotta be the test monkey. What the hell, I'd rather buy things for the future than keep buying parts to make my last generation struggle through. I didn't think 166FSB would so quickly be obsolete this past round, but but by the time it was, I was looking at Clawhammers finally making their apperance, which I thought would've replaced my older machine when I bought my current board.

I hate delays!

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

dhlucke · Apr 22, 2004

Assuming no delays when is PCI-ex hitting the streets? 6 months with the NV45?

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kinney · Apr 22, 2004

The performance jumps in Far Cry were not minor in any way you look at it. Its the most advanced game out.. the improvements, even the introductory improvements were huge considering all factors.

The card isnt even on shelves yet, the drivers are so premature its laughable (none of the new multimedia features are implemented at all), the game at the time of those reviews was seeing the NV40 as a NV30 even.
Its a bit too early but like I said, I expect performance gains from PS3.0 and possibly IQ.. but that to me is merely a bonus. Cant hurt.

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