Feeding house rules for Vampire: The Requiem.

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Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

I'm dissatisfied with the feeding rules for Vampire: The Requiem.
They're not realistic in the slightest, and are, in fact, far too
lenient -- by the book's rules, a mortal can lose six pints of blood and
walk away with a -2 penalty, and then be completely recovered within
twelve days.

So I came up with these house rules. I'd appreciate any comments:

A typical human being has seven pints of blood in his veins at any given
time. For purposes of staying simple, this blood is composed of two
substances -- blood plasma and blood cells.

The heart requires a certain level of blood pressure to continue
beating. The threshold between "alive with distressingly low blood
pressure" and "heart failure and death" exists at roughly half of the
volume of blood in the human body. A human who loses half his blood
goes into cardiac arrest and dies.

Blood plasma's fluid pressure replenishes quickly, as it's basically
fluid and a few nutrients. Someone who loses blood can replenish all of
his blood plasma over the course of a day of rest and a good night's
sleep, provided he drinks lots of fluids.

In contrast, blood cells replenish slowly. It takes months to
regenerate red and white blood cells, and people who lose a lot of blood
over a short period of time suffer the affects of anemia. Red blood
cells carry oxygen from the lungs to the body, while white blood cells
help fight off infection -- someone with anemia is pale, weak, sickly,
and vulnerable to diseases.

SYSTEM:

Mortals have a number of blood points equal to half their health levels,
rounded down. This doesn't represent the number of vitae points a
vampire can take from a mortal (that's equal to the mortal's actual
health levels) -- rather, it represents the number of vitae points a
vampire can take from a mortal in one feeding without killing him. Most
mortals have three blood points.

If a mortal loses all his blood points, but does not go into negative,
he suffers a -2 penalty to all actions. If a mortal has one blood point
left, he suffers a -1 penalty. Otherwise, he suffers no penalty. A
mortal who loses all his blood points, and then loses one more, has his
health chart filled with lethal wounds and begins dying, with the
special note that resuscitation measures will fail unless the person
attempting them has some means of replacing the blood lost.

Blood points don't normally replenish at a set rate per hour or day like
health levels do. Instead, a single day and night of rest (and drinking
a lot of fluids, which is assumed to happen off-screen if it isn't
roleplayed) replenishes all of a mortal's blood points. In cases where
excess fluids aren't available, such as, for instance, a vampire and a
mortal stranded together in a desert (I hope the vampire has Protean
••), blood points don't replenish.

If a vampire takes more vitae points from a mortal in a single month
than that mortal has blood points, the mortal suffers anemia. This
manifests in two ways -- a single aggravated wound, and a -1 penalty to
all actions (though the -1 penalty could actually turn into a +1 bonus
in some circumstances, like when trying to appear weak and helpless to
play to someone's sympathies). Every additional vitae point a vampire
takes from a mortal in a month (counted from the last feeding) inflicts
an additional aggravated wound, but the -1 penalty does not increase
(though it will eventually stack with wound penalties). The anemia
penalty goes away once the mortal has healed all aggravated wounds
(including those inflicted by other sources). Intensive care can
downgrade these aggravated wounds to lethal as usual -- blood
transfusions make this sort of anemia go away.

These rules don't interact with the bleeding rules in any way. It can
be assumed that a mortal who has less than his total number of blood
points has low blood pressure and bleeds more slowly, or something,
which balances with their blood points lost and keeps the rate at which
they bleed to death the same. I don't feel like writing up a
cross-reference chart for this. Too much bookkeeping = bad.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:2p7dtkFgemndU1@uni-berlin.de...
> I'm dissatisfied with the feeding rules for Vampire: The Requiem.
> They're not realistic in the slightest, and are, in fact, far too
> lenient -- by the book's rules, a mortal can lose six pints of blood
and
> walk away with a -2 penalty, and then be completely recovered within
> twelve days.
--------------
Where is there an equivalence of pints to vitae points in the rules?

--
You are Not entering Chapeltown.
We walk on two legs, the one abstract
the other surreal.
All important political action should be
aimed at persuading people of the
necessity of further sacrifices.
- Ardian Vehbiu, "Handbook for
Aspiring Stalinists"
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Certic wrote:

> Where is there an equivalence of pints to vitae points in the rules?

Vampire: The Requiem 165:

"Kindred can also drink stored blood such as plasma reserves or the
contents of a blood bank, but this, too, contains less vital force than
the hot blood of a living person. Kindred find it much less satisfying.
Stored blood yields only one-eighth the Vitae of a similar quantity of
blood taken from a living source. For example, a Kindred would have to
consume an amount equal to 80 percent of the blood in a human body to
glean a single point of Vitae if the body in question was stored."

There's an implied equivalence there, I'm sure of it.

Also, Justin Achilli said online once on RPG.net that he was really
happy the way the new system, giving people one blood point per health
level, matches up with the reality of the mass of blood in the human body.

Only one response? I put a lot of thought into that system!
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:2p9odhFig69iU1@uni-berlin.de...
> Certic wrote:
>
> > Where is there an equivalence of pints to vitae points in the rules?
>
> Vampire: The Requiem 165:
>
> "Kindred can also drink stored blood such as plasma reserves or the
> contents of a blood bank, but this, too, contains less vital force than
> the hot blood of a living person. Kindred find it much less satisfying.
> Stored blood yields only one-eighth the Vitae of a similar quantity of
> blood taken from a living source. For example, a Kindred would have to
> consume an amount equal to 80 percent of the blood in a human body to
> glean a single point of Vitae if the body in question was stored."
>
> There's an implied equivalence there, I'm sure of it.
>
> Also, Justin Achilli said online once on RPG.net that he was really
> happy the way the new system, giving people one blood point per health
> level, matches up with the reality of the mass of blood in the human body.
>
> Only one response? I put a lot of thought into that system!

I haven't even gotten to the point where I can read the section headers, and
you're already not only giving us page cites, but writing well-thought out
and detailed house rules for significant systems. As far as actually
commenting on your house rules, I'll do that tomorrow. I'm too lazy right
now to lean over and pick the book off the floor to see what you're talking
about. I'd have to reach up and turn out the light, too, and that's just not
happening right now.

And that's not even counting your envy-inducing list of WW products. Though
mine was a lot more impressive before I jettisoned all my 1.0 versions of
everything.

Joel Morton
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:35:03 -0700, Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>I'm dissatisfied with the feeding rules for Vampire: The Requiem.
>They're not realistic in the slightest, and are, in fact, far too
>lenient -- by the book's rules, a mortal can lose six pints of blood and
>walk away with a -2 penalty, and then be completely recovered within
>twelve days.

(snip)

I like this, Stephen, very nice.

One observation, though. If a particular mortal is often used to
provide blood for a vampire, they'll start to show physiological
effects - weight loss as well as anaemia. They'll also become more
disease-prone, as their bone marrow becomes overtaxed.

In my view, anyone who triggers that anaemia level of yours should
also be showing physical symptoms. If the vampire insists on doing
this to the same mortal week-in, week-out, they may be in danger of
losing Stamina permanently, which will eventually kill them anyway.
Obviously, ghouling will prevent this from happening.

Rationale:

Provides unsettling physical evidence on the victims. Good for STs and
vampire hunters.
Reinforces the idea that vampires are not good for mortals. They are
cursed predators who will kill you.
Makes the fate of herds worth considering and forces vampires to think
about who they are feeding from (also goes a little further to explain
why vampires congregate near large mortal settlements)
Makes vampires make the choice to ghoul favoured vessels - or to
eventually kill them.


Cheers,

Charlie
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Charlie B wrote:

> I like this, Stephen, very nice.

Thank you.

> One observation, though. If a particular mortal is often used to
> provide blood for a vampire, they'll start to show physiological
> effects - weight loss as well as anaemia. They'll also become more
> disease-prone, as their bone marrow becomes overtaxed.
>
I figured that'd be covered by inflicting enough aggravated damage that
wound penalties start to accrue.

> In my view, anyone who triggers that anaemia level of yours should
> also be showing physical symptoms. If the vampire insists on doing
> this to the same mortal week-in, week-out, they may be in danger of
> losing Stamina permanently, which will eventually kill them anyway.
> Obviously, ghouling will prevent this from happening.

I didn't think I needed to mention the physical symptoms -- someone with
a lot of aggravated damage from anemia is of course going to look horrible.

Losing Stamina permanently isn't something that occurred to me. It's a
neat idea, but I was trying to keep my system rules-light and, really, a
bit lenient.

> Provides unsettling physical evidence on the victims. Good for STs and
> vampire hunters.
> Reinforces the idea that vampires are not good for mortals. They are
> cursed predators who will kill you.
> Makes the fate of herds worth considering and forces vampires to think
> about who they are feeding from (also goes a little further to explain
> why vampires congregate near large mortal settlements)
> Makes vampires make the choice to ghoul favoured vessels - or to
> eventually kill them.

I hadn't considered the possibility that ghouling could provide
immunity. How would that work?
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephenls squarked:
> I'm dissatisfied with the feeding rules for Vampire: The Requiem.
> They're not realistic in the slightest, and are, in fact, far too
> lenient -- by the book's rules, a mortal can lose six pints of blood
> and walk away with a -2 penalty, and then be completely recovered
> within twelve days.
>
> So I came up with these house rules. I'd appreciate any comments:
I am not sure I like the extra burden of your rules, but I really do I like
the thinking behind them and the ideas may feature (without actual rules) in
a game some day. I do wonder though if the problem is not the feeding rules
but the wound penalties. I would prefer a straight progression to any
alternative WW have produced - 1 wound = 1 penalty. But then I prefer my
combat bloody.
--
Picks-at-Flies
I only eat people in self-defence
http://www.werepenguin.net
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Picks-at-Flies wrote:

> I am not sure I like the extra burden of your rules, but I really do I like
> the thinking behind them and the ideas may feature (without actual rules) in
> a game some day. I do wonder though if the problem is not the feeding rules
> but the wound penalties. I would prefer a straight progression to any
> alternative WW have produced - 1 wound = 1 penalty. But then I prefer my
> combat bloody.

The thing about the wound penalties as they currently exist in
Storyteller is that they're /much, much/ more realistic than previous
versions, and indeed much more realistic than what you propose above.

Combat studies done by the army show that adrenaline largely mitigates
the effect of pain and even physical damage, preventing it from
impacting performance in battle. There are three possible reactions to
any wound:

1) Nothing.
2) Incapacitated.
3) Nothing, and then fall down ten minutes later after the fight stops
and the adrenaline wears off.

The exceptions to this are truly massive structural damage -- it's hard
to fire a gun in your right hand if you haven't got a right hand anymore
-- but those are rare.

Like a finely tuned machine, the human body is set up such that any
damage that actually impairs probably impairs in a very serious way,
rather than mildly.

Mind you, it would be even more realistic to have two sets of wound
penalties -- the one you function under during combat, and the one you
function under once combat is over. But this might be too complicated.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:2p9odhFig69iU1@uni-berlin.de...
> Certic wrote:
>
> > Where is there an equivalence of pints to vitae points in the
rules?
>
> Vampire: The Requiem 165:
>
> "Kindred can also drink stored blood such as plasma reserves or the
> contents of a blood bank, but this, too, contains less vital force
than
> the hot blood of a living person. Kindred find it much less
satisfying.
> Stored blood yields only one-eighth the Vitae of a similar
quantity of
> blood taken from a living source. For example, a Kindred would have
to
> consume an amount equal to 80 percent of the blood in a human body
to
> glean a single point of Vitae if the body in question was stored."
>
> There's an implied equivalence there, I'm sure of it.
>
> Also, Justin Achilli said online once on RPG.net that he was really
> happy the way the new system, giving people one blood point per
health
> level, matches up with the reality of the mass of blood in the human
body.
------------
Mistake. Baaaad mistake...

--
You are Not entering Chapeltown.
We walk on two legs, the one abstract
the other surreal.
All important political action should be
aimed at persuading people of the
necessity of further sacrifices.
- Ardian Vehbiu, "Handbook for
Aspiring Stalinists"
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:44:49 -0700, Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>Charlie B wrote:

>> In my view, anyone who triggers that anaemia level of yours should
>> also be showing physical symptoms. If the vampire insists on doing
>> this to the same mortal week-in, week-out, they may be in danger of
>> losing Stamina permanently, which will eventually kill them anyway.
>> Obviously, ghouling will prevent this from happening.
>
>I didn't think I needed to mention the physical symptoms -- someone with
>a lot of aggravated damage from anemia is of course going to look horrible.
>
>Losing Stamina permanently isn't something that occurred to me. It's a
>neat idea, but I was trying to keep my system rules-light and, really, a
>bit lenient.

That's fair enough. I am a little harsher than you sometimes. I
hadn't really thought about whether it was fair, more about whether it
could give interesting scenarios.

>> Makes vampires make the choice to ghoul favoured vessels - or to
>> eventually kill them.
>
>I hadn't considered the possibility that ghouling could provide
>immunity. How would that work?

The enhanced physical resilience conferred by ghouling could also make
vessels more able to withstand regular feeding. The logical extension
of this is mortals being deliberately ghouled and, possibly, bred, as
long-lasting but essentially immortal vessels. Makes the idea of
revenants even less pleasant than they were previously.

Cheers,

Charlie
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:14:10 +0100, "Certic" <PJS@winwaed.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>
>Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>news:2p9odhFig69iU1@uni-berlin.de...
>> Certic wrote:
>>

>> Also, Justin Achilli said online once on RPG.net that he was really
>> happy the way the new system, giving people one blood point per
>health
>> level, matches up with the reality of the mass of blood in the human
>body.
>------------
>Mistake. Baaaad mistake...

Because?

C
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

In the borning days of the third millennium, Stephenls wrote:
>Mind you, it would be even more realistic to have two sets of wound
>penalties -- the one you function under during combat, and the one you
>function under once combat is over. But this might be too complicated.

How about spending a Willpower point and rolling Stamina+Composure to ignore
wound penalties for the remainder of the scene? At the end of the scene, you
suffer double wound penalties until you heal at least one health level.

Dramatic Failure: You panic, -1 to dice pool for the remainder of the scene
in addition to wound penalties.
Failure: You cannot ignore the pain and stress.
Success: You grit your teeth and move through the pain.
Exeptional Success: It's Rambo time, baby. You regain the spent Willpower
point due to your intense resolve.

--
Brian Merchant (remove 'remove' and 'example' from email)

Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept
them from enjoying it.
--Father Joe Breighner
Country Roads
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls" wrote in message

<snip Stephenls' excellent discussion>

The text rules work much better if instead of 1 point Vitae = 1 pint of
blood, you assume that 1 point of Vitae = 1/2 pint of blood. This allows
about half the blood volume to be drained before a human is near death.

I don't for the life of me understand how, according to the rules, someone
can be completely drained of blood and still not be really dead. It's not
even vaguely sensible: "Remember that a mortal character reduced to zero
Health points goes into a coma when her last Health box is crossed off. She
isn't actually 'bleeding to death,' as the vampire has already taken all her
blood, but the state represents her remaining will to survive," p. 165, VtR.

WTF?

If not having any blood left isn't the exact definition of "bleeding to
death," then how is it possible to die of blood loss? Can you imagine trying
to pull that on your ST? "I can't bleed to death, dude, 'cause I don't have
any blood left to loose. See, it's right here in the rules!"

I have been laughing the entire time I wrote this post.

Joel Morton
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Joel Morton wrote:

> The text rules work much better if instead of 1 point Vitae = 1 pint of
> blood, you assume that 1 point of Vitae = 1/2 pint of blood. This allows
> about half the blood volume to be drained before a human is near death.

A couple other people have suggested this on various fora where it's
been posted -- it works, but it also makes blood really plentiful --
human beings start walking around with 14 vitae points each.

> I don't for the life of me understand how, according to the rules, someone
> can be completely drained of blood and still not be really dead. It's not
> even vaguely sensible: "Remember that a mortal character reduced to zero
> Health points goes into a coma when her last Health box is crossed off. She
> isn't actually 'bleeding to death,' as the vampire has already taken all her
> blood, but the state represents her remaining will to survive," p. 165, VtR.

> WTF?

> If not having any blood left isn't the exact definition of "bleeding to
> death," then how is it possible to die of blood loss? Can you imagine trying
> to pull that on your ST? "I can't bleed to death, dude, 'cause I don't have
> any blood left to loose. See, it's right here in the rules!"

That's pretty much what motivated me to write up this house rule.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephenls wrote:

> Joel Morton wrote:
>
>> The text rules work much better if instead of 1 point Vitae = 1 pint of
>> blood, you assume that 1 point of Vitae = 1/2 pint of blood. This allows
>> about half the blood volume to be drained before a human is near death.
>
>
> A couple other people have suggested this on various fora where it's
> been posted -- it works, but it also makes blood really plentiful --
> human beings start walking around with 14 vitae points each.
>

That's fine as long as you don't assume the Vampire can get at all of
that blood - ie, by the time the first 50% is gone, blood vessels should
be collapsing. The vascular system of mammals just isn't built to
support itself in the absense of internal pressure.

Trust me on this one, or ask anyone else who has tried to perfuse a
mammalian circulatory system what happens if you don't maintain a steady
pressure. Once that much blood has drained out, most of the minor
vessels (first the veins, but arteries too) are going to collapse. It'd
be like the vampire was trying to slurp up the last bit of lemonade in a
cup with a flattened straw.

William
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

In the borning days of the third millennium, Brian Merchant wrote:
>How about spending a Willpower point and rolling Stamina+Composure to ignore

Whoops. Make that Wits+Resolve. Wits+Composure would be for spinning away
from the bullet impacts in a stylish John Woo movie manner.

--
Brian Merchant (remove 'remove' and 'example' from email)

Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept
them from enjoying it.
--Father Joe Breighner
Country Roads
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:59:54 -0700, Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>Joel Morton wrote:
>
>> The text rules work much better if instead of 1 point Vitae = 1 pint of
>> blood, you assume that 1 point of Vitae = 1/2 pint of blood. This allows
>> about half the blood volume to be drained before a human is near death.
>
>A couple other people have suggested this on various fora where it's
>been posted -- it works, but it also makes blood really plentiful --
>human beings start walking around with 14 vitae points each.

Nah. Just assume they only have 7 points of useful vitae. After all
post death blood isn't nearly as good. At least it wasn't in the
original rules.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

rgormannospam@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote in message news:<413226f7.55467141@news.telusplanet.net>...
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 10:59:54 -0700, Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >Joel Morton wrote:
> >
> >> The text rules work much better if instead of 1 point Vitae = 1 pint of
> >> blood, you assume that 1 point of Vitae = 1/2 pint of blood. This allows
> >> about half the blood volume to be drained before a human is near death.
> >
> >A couple other people have suggested this on various fora where it's
> >been posted -- it works, but it also makes blood really plentiful --
> >human beings start walking around with 14 vitae points each.
>
> Nah. Just assume they only have 7 points of useful vitae. After all
> post death blood isn't nearly as good. At least it wasn't in the
> original rules.

And it isn't in these rules either.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephenls squarked:
> Picks-at-Flies wrote:
>> is not the feeding rules but the wound penalties. I would prefer a
>> straight progression to any alternative WW have produced - 1 wound =
>> 1 penalty. But then I prefer my combat bloody.
>
> The thing about the wound penalties as they currently exist in
> Storyteller is that they're /much, much/ more realistic than previous
> versions, and indeed much more realistic than what you propose above.
....
> Mind you, it would be even more realistic to have two sets of wound
> penalties -- the one you function under during combat, and the one you
> function under once combat is over. But this might be too
> complicated.
Actually, if you take my nice simple rule above, and then mark off the wound
penalties by the book on your sheet... I think it is workable but it does
depend on your troup. I find it hard to believe that a bruise big enough to
give a wound level does -not- interfere with your work. You would have to
find some way of deciding when adrenaline kicks in though (and the effects
of overoverexposure to it! - I haven't read the tiredness rules yet).
--
Picks-at-Flies
I only eat people in self-defence
http://www.werepenguin.net
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Charlie B <msrfx@remove_to_mail.fsmail.net> wrote in message
news:uiv1j0p6j1n85b04ve1p3dus8skrjqtahi@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:14:10 +0100, "Certic"
<PJS@winwaed.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Stephenls <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> >news:2p9odhFig69iU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >> Certic wrote:
> >>
>
> >> Also, Justin Achilli said online once on RPG.net that he was
really
> >> happy the way the new system, giving people one blood point per
> >health
> >> level, matches up with the reality of the mass of blood in the
human
> >body.
> >------------
> >Mistake. Baaaad mistake...
>
> Because?
------------
It leads to further complications when people who know about this
stuff point at the existing rules - as Stephenls has done - and say,
"That's ridiculous: nobody could lose 6 pints of blood and live..."
and hence we end up with dissatisfaction and people writing their own
rules. If there was no equivlance, there'd be no problems with the
current ones.

--
You are Not entering Chapeltown.
We walk on two legs, the one abstract
the other surreal.
All important political action should be
aimed at persuading people of the
necessity of further sacrifices.
- Ardian Vehbiu, "Handbook for
Aspiring Stalinists"