Fifth Dawn card questions

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi all,

Got some questions here regarding Fifth Dawn cards. Any help is appreciated!

1) If there is a Silent Arbiter in play and let's say I attack with a
creature with Lure attach to it. Must my opponent block with all of
his/her creatures or only one?

Silent Arbiter
Artifact Creature
(4)
1/5
No more than one creature may attack each combat.
No more than one creature may block each combat.

Lure
Enchant Creature
(1)(G)(G)
All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so.


2) If my opponent plays Goblin Piledriver, can I play Spectral Shift and
change it's Protection from Blue to Protection from Red while it is
still in the stack? I assume I can since the Protection from Blue isn't
in effect yet. Now, once it resolves, can I assume it will have
Protection from Red instead of Blue until it leaves play?

Goblin Piledriver
Creature - Goblin
(1)(R)
1/2
Protection from blue
Whenever Goblin Piledriver attacks, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn for
each other attacking Goblin.

Spectral Shift
Instant
(1)(U)
Choose one - Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing
all instances of one basic land type with another; or change the text of
target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one color word
with another. (These effects don't end at end of turn.)
Entwine (2)


3) If my opponent plays (or have in play) a Vernal Bloom, can I change
the extra mana color it can product with Spectral Shift? Likewise, can I
change the activation cost of, for example, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa's
ability with Spectral Shift? In both cases, since it does not
explicitely say Green, but (G), I think I can't, but I am not completely
sure of this.

Vernal Bloom
Enchantment
(3)(G)
Whenever a Forest is tapped for mana, its controller adds (G) to his or
her mana pool.

Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
Creature - Druid Legend
3/4
(G): Target land becomes a 1/1 creature until end of turn. It's still a
land.
(2)(G)(G)(G): Creatures you control get +3/+3 and gain trample until end
of turn.


4) Since Granulate's effect does not say "They can't be regenerated"
(like Wrath of God), using Welding Jar's ability on an artifact with CMC
of 4 or less will prevent it from being destroyed, right?

Granulate
(2)(R)(R)
Sorcery
Destroy each nonland artifact with converted mana cost 4 or less.

Wrath of God
(2)(W)(W)
Sorcery
Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated.

Welding Jar
(0)
Artifact
Sacrifice Welding Jar: Regenerate target artifact.


5) This is more of a Darksteel question(s), but I will put it here
anyway... Let's say I play Panoptic Mirror. During my next upkeep, will
the triggered ability of the Mirror trigger even if there is no
imprinted card(s)? If it does trigger, before it resolve, can I imprint
Beacon of Tomorrows and, basically, creating a lock on my opponent? Now,
if my opponet destroy the Mirror after I imprint it with the Beacon, but
before the Mirror's triggered ability resolve, can I still play a copy
of the Beacon?

Panoptic Mirror
(5)
Artifact
Imprint - (X), : You may remove an instant or sorcery card with
converted mana cost (X) in your hand from the game. (That card is
imprinted on this artifact.)
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may copy an imprinted instant or
sorcery card and play the copy without paying its mana cost.

Beacon of Tomorrows
(6)(U)(U)
Sorcery
Target player takes an extra turn after this one. Shuffle Beacon of
Tomorrows into its owner's library.



Thanks in advance!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Francisco Ho <fxho@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Got some questions here regarding Fifth Dawn cards. Any help is appreciated!
>
> 1) If there is a Silent Arbiter in play and let's say I attack with a
> creature with Lure attach to it. Must my opponent block with all of
> his/her creatures or only one?

If the opponent has more than one creature, he/she *can't* block with
all of them as long as Silent Arbiter is out. Lure is irrelevant to
this.

500. Legal Attacks and Blocks

500.1. Some effects restrict declaring attackers or blockers in combat
or require certain creatures to be declared as attackers or blockers.
(See rule 308, "Declare Attackers Step," and rule 309, "Declare Blockers
Step.") A restriction is an effect which says that a creature can't
block (or attack) or that it can't block (or attack) unless some
condition is met. A requirement is an effect which says that a creature
must block (or attack) or that it must block (or attack) if some
condition is met.

500.4. A restriction conflicts with a proposed set of attackers or
blockers if it isn't being followed. A requirement conflicts with a
proposed set of attackers or blockers if it isn't being followed and (1)
the requirement could be obeyed without violating a restriction and (2)
doing so will allow the total number of requirements that the set obeys
to increase.

Or, another way to look at this:

Lure says "All creatures ABLE to block enchanted creature do so." As
soon as your opponent names one blocker, the effect of Silent Arbiter
means that no other creature is ABLE to block enchanted creature.

> 2) If my opponent plays Goblin Piledriver, can I play Spectral Shift and
> change it's Protection from Blue to Protection from Red while it is
> still in the stack? I assume I can since the Protection from Blue isn't
> in effect yet.

Indeed. There is no reason for that static ability to function while
the spell is on the stack.

402.8. Abilities function only while the permanent with the ability is
in play unless the ability is a characteristic-setting ability that sets
type or color, an ability of an instant or sorcery, an additional cost,
an alternative cost, or a play restriction. Abilities can also function
in other zones if they state otherwise or if the ability can only
trigger or be played in a zone other than the in-play zone. An ability
whose cost or effect specifies that it moves the object it's on out of a
particular zone functions only in that zone.
Example: An ability with a cost that includes "Discard this card from
your hand" can be played only if the card is in your hand.

> Now, once it resolves, can I assume it will have
> Protection from Red instead of Blue until it leaves play?

Yes, the effect of Spectral Shift will continue to apply to the
permanent that the Goblin Piledriver spell creates.

217.1c An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a new
object. Effects connected with its previous location will no longer
affect it. There are two exceptions to this rule: Effects that edit the
characteristics of an artifact, creature, or enchantment spell on the
stack will continue to apply to the permanent that spell creates, and
abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another
(for example, "When Rancor is put into a graveyard from play") can find
the object in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered.

> 3) If my opponent plays (or have in play) a Vernal Bloom, can I change
> the extra mana color it can product with Spectral Shift? Likewise, can I
> change the activation cost of, for example, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa's
> ability with Spectral Shift? In both cases, since it does not
> explicitely say Green, but (G), I think I can't, but I am not completely
> sure of this.

Vernal Bloom and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa contain no color words in their
texts, so Spectral Shift's "change the text of target spell or permanent
by replacing all instances of one color word with another" mode would
have no consequences for either of them.

> 4) Since Granulate's effect does not say "They can't be regenerated"
> (like Wrath of God), using Welding Jar's ability on an artifact with CMC
> of 4 or less will prevent it from being destroyed, right?

Absolutely.

> 5) This is more of a Darksteel question(s), but I will put it here
> anyway... Let's say I play Panoptic Mirror. During my next upkeep, will
> the triggered ability of the Mirror trigger even if there is no
> imprinted card(s)?

Yes. It says "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may copy an
imprinted instant or sorcery card and play the copy without paying its
mana cost.", not "At the beginning of your upkeep, if a card is
imprinted on Panoptic Mirror, you may copy an imprinted instant or
sorcery card and play the copy without paying its mana cost."

For that matter, the Darksteel FAQ includes:

* The triggered ability triggers only once each upkeep, not once per
imprinted card. If no cards are imprinted on Panoptic Mirror when the
triggered ability resolves, it does nothing.

> If it does trigger, before it resolve, can I imprint
> Beacon of Tomorrows and, basically, creating a lock on my opponent?

The Darksteel FAQ also includes:

* You may imprint a card on Panoptic Mirror in response to the
upkeep-triggered ability. If you do, that card is available to copy when
the triggered ability resolves.

> Now,
> if my opponet destroy the Mirror after I imprint it with the Beacon, but
> before the Mirror's triggered ability resolve, can I still play a copy
> of the Beacon?

Yes.

* If Panoptic Mirror or Spellbinder leaves play while its "play a copy
of the imprinted card" ability is on the stack, its ability will use
last known information to know what the imprinted card is. A copy of the
card can be made, and it can be played as normal.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Francisco Ho, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Hi all,
>
> Got some questions here regarding Fifth Dawn cards. Any help is appreciated!
>
> 1) If there is a Silent Arbiter in play and let's say I attack with a
> creature with Lure attach to it. Must my opponent block with all of
> his/her creatures or only one?
>
> Silent Arbiter
> Artifact Creature
> (4)
> 1/5
> No more than one creature may attack each combat.
> No more than one creature may block each combat.
>
> Lure
> Enchant Creature
> (1)(G)(G)
> All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so.

Your opponent has to block the Lured creature (if he controls a creature
capable of doing so), but can choose any one creature that can legally
block it to do so. The gory details are in section 500 of the rules,
but suffice to say restrictions like that of Silent Arbiter outweigh
requirements like that imposed by Lure.

> 2) If my opponent plays Goblin Piledriver, can I play Spectral Shift and
> change it's Protection from Blue to Protection from Red while it is
> still in the stack? I assume I can since the Protection from Blue isn't
> in effect yet.

Yes. Abilities of permanents only apply when they're in play, unless
they specifically say otherwise or only make sense some other way.

> Now, once it resolves, can I assume it will have
> Protection from Red instead of Blue until it leaves play?

Yes. Editing a spell's characteristics in this way carries over to the
permanent that spell becomes (in the case of Enchantment, Creature or
Artifact spells).

> Goblin Piledriver
> Creature - Goblin
> (1)(R)
> 1/2
> Protection from blue
> Whenever Goblin Piledriver attacks, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn for
> each other attacking Goblin.
>
> Spectral Shift
> Instant
> (1)(U)
> Choose one - Change the text of target spell or permanent by replacing
> all instances of one basic land type with another; or change the text of
> target spell or permanent by replacing all instances of one color word
> with another. (These effects don't end at end of turn.)
> Entwine (2)

> 3) If my opponent plays (or have in play) a Vernal Bloom, can I change
> the extra mana color it can product with Spectral Shift? Likewise, can I
> change the activation cost of, for example, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa's
> ability with Spectral Shift? In both cases, since it does not
> explicitely say Green, but (G), I think I can't, but I am not completely
> sure of this.

You are correct - it can only change actual words, not mana symbols.
(This sort of thing caused a lot of confusion in the early days, as some
printed versions of Dark Ritual say "three black mana" and others have
three black mana symbols...)

> Vernal Bloom
> Enchantment
> (3)(G)
> Whenever a Forest is tapped for mana, its controller adds (G) to his or
> her mana pool.
>
> Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
> Creature - Druid Legend
> 3/4
> (G): Target land becomes a 1/1 creature until end of turn. It's still a
> land.
> (2)(G)(G)(G): Creatures you control get +3/+3 and gain trample until end
> of turn.

> 4) Since Granulate's effect does not say "They can't be regenerated"
> (like Wrath of God), using Welding Jar's ability on an artifact with CMC
> of 4 or less will prevent it from being destroyed, right?

Correct.

> Granulate
> (2)(R)(R)
> Sorcery
> Destroy each nonland artifact with converted mana cost 4 or less.
>
> Wrath of God
> (2)(W)(W)
> Sorcery
> Destroy all creatures. They can't be regenerated.
>
> Welding Jar
> (0)
> Artifact
> Sacrifice Welding Jar: Regenerate target artifact.

> 5) This is more of a Darksteel question(s), but I will put it here
> anyway... Let's say I play Panoptic Mirror. During my next upkeep, will
> the triggered ability of the Mirror trigger even if there is no
> imprinted card(s)?

Yes. You don't choose an imprinted card until the ability resolves. If
you don't choose one, which can happen even if one exists since the
ability says "may", nothing happens, but that doesn't mean the ability
doesn't trigger.

> If it does trigger, before it resolve, can I imprint
> Beacon of Tomorrows and, basically, creating a lock on my opponent?

Yes - this timing trick is fairly popular on the Limited tournament
scene, or so I'm told.

> Now,
> if my opponet destroy the Mirror after I imprint it with the Beacon, but
> before the Mirror's triggered ability resolve, can I still play a copy
> of the Beacon?

Apparently, yes. Nothing says "if Panoptic Mirror is in play" or
anything like that, and apparently what is imprinted on a permanent is
part of its Last Known Information, which is what gets used in
situations like this. I raised a similar question a few months ago and
that was the answer I got, anyway.

> Panoptic Mirror
> (5)
> Artifact
> Imprint - (X), : You may remove an instant or sorcery card with
> converted mana cost (X) in your hand from the game. (That card is
> imprinted on this artifact.)
> At the beginning of your upkeep, you may copy an imprinted instant or
> sorcery card and play the copy without paying its mana cost.
>
> Beacon of Tomorrows
> (6)(U)(U)
> Sorcery
> Target player takes an extra turn after this one. Shuffle Beacon of
> Tomorrows into its owner's library.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 03:28:05 GMT, Francisco Ho <fxho@yahoo.com> wrote:
>1) If there is a Silent Arbiter in play and let's say I attack with a
>creature with Lure attach to it. Must my opponent block with all of
>his/her creatures or only one?

>Silent Arbiter Artifact Creature 4
>1/5 No more than one creature may attack each combat. / No more than one
> creature may block each combat.
>Lure Enchant Creature 1GG
> All creatures able to block enchanted creature do so.

Lure does not make anything able to block that would otherwise be unable to
block. With the Arbiter in play, only one creature may block each combat,
because it says so; thus only one creature gets Lured. Your opponent chooses
which creature of theirs blocks the Arbiter, and that creature must do so;
all his others must do so if able, but are not able, so don't/can't.

>2) If my opponent plays Goblin Piledriver, can I play Spectral Shift and
>change it's Protection from Blue to Protection from Red while it is
>still in the stack? I assume I can since the Protection from Blue isn't
>in effect yet.

Yes, and yes.

>Now, once it resolves, can I assume it will have
>Protection from Red instead of Blue until it leaves play?

Yep. The effect of things that edit text of a spell on the stack will "follow"
that spell into play if it becomes a permanent. The effect of Spectral Shift,
Magical Hack, Sleight of Mind, the -laces, etc., will continue to apply to
a permanent a spell becomes, if they edited or changed characteristics of a
spell. 217.1c .

>3) If my opponent plays (or have in play) a Vernal Bloom, can I change
>the extra mana color it can product with Spectral Shift? Likewise, can I
>change the activation cost of, for example, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa's
>ability with Spectral Shift? In both cases, since it does not
>explicitely say Green, but (G), I think I can't, but I am not completely
>sure of this.

No - you can't change a mana symbol with something that says it changes one
color -word- to another. Compare Vernal Bloom's Oracle text ("G") with, say,
Orcish Lumberjack's ("any combination of red and/or green mana"). You can
change whatcolor of mana the Lumberjack's ability produces this way, but not
what color the Bloom makes the Forests produce. (But you _can_ change what
_land type_ that VB makes produce an additional G.)


>4) Since Granulate's effect does not say "They can't be regenerated"
>(like Wrath of God), using Welding Jar's ability on an artifact with CMC
>of 4 or less will prevent it from being destroyed, right?

Yes, you can regenerate an artifact from Granulate's effect. This does
include artifact creatures (and artifact noncreatures; the Welding Jar does
not discriminate).

>Granulate 2RR Sorcery
>Destroy each nonland artifact with converted mana cost 4 or less.

>5) This is more of a Darksteel question(s), but I will put it here
>anyway... Let's say I play Panoptic Mirror. During my next upkeep, will
>the triggered ability of the Mirror trigger even if there is no
>imprinted card(s)?

Yes. It doesn't say "At the beginning of your upkeep, if any cards are
imprinted on ~, you may copy an...".

>If it does trigger, before it resolve, can I imprint
>Beacon of Tomorrows and, basically, creating a lock on my opponent?

Yes (and, possibly, yes). It'll cost you 8 to do so, since BoT has a mana cost
of 6UU, but the triggered ability chooses between cards imprinted on the
Mirror at the time the ability resolves.

>Now, if my opponet destroy the Mirror after I imprint it with the Beacon, but
>before the Mirror's triggered ability resolve, can I still play a copy
>of the Beacon?

Yes, assuming they do so after the "imprint this card" ability resolves. And,
believe it or not, the FAQ for Darksteel _does_ cover this (under the "Imprint"
section for the latter question, and under PM's entry for the former).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrncdb7ir.9gt.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 03:28:05 GMT, Francisco Ho <fxho@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >If it does trigger, before it resolve, can I imprint
> >Beacon of Tomorrows and, basically, creating a lock on my opponent?
>
> Yes (and, possibly, yes). It'll cost you 8 to do so, since BoT has a mana
cost
> of 6UU, but the triggered ability chooses between cards imprinted on the
> Mirror at the time the ability resolves.
>
Question: Why does the Beacon's second ability to reshuffle it not apply
here?
Wouldn't Time Warp be more fun and cheaper?


--
JahBerWocky
Good God, He's Lansdellicious!
REPENT! REPENT! THE END IS No Carrier

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jabberwocky <thunderjedi@theforce.bb> wrote:

> Question: Why does the Beacon's second ability to reshuffle it not apply
> here?

"second ability"?? Beacon of Tomorrows just has the one piece of rules
text "Target player takes an extra turn after this one. Shuffle Beacon
of Tomorrows into its owner's library." (Rule 401.3 and the definition
of ability in rule 402 seem to make that an ability, but there is still
only one.) And who said the second sentence wouldn't apply, anyway?

Keep the following rules in mind:

202.2. Text that refers to the object it's on by name means just that
particular object and not any other duplicates of it, regardless of any
name changes caused by game effects.

420.5. The state-based effects are as follows:

420.5j A copy of a spell in a zone other than the stack ceases to exist.
A copy of a card in any zone other than the stack or the in-play zone
ceases to exist.

503.12. An effect that instructs a player to "play a copy" of an object
follows the rules for playing spells and abilities, except that the copy
is played while another spell or ability is resolving. Playing a copy of
a nonland object follows steps 409.1a-409.1h of rule 409, "Playing
Spells and Activated Abilities," then the copy becomes played. The
played copy is a spell on the stack, and just like any other spell it
can resolve or be countered.

> Wouldn't Time Warp be more fun and cheaper?

Beacon of Tomorrows is legal in Type II.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jabberwocky <thunderjedi@theforce.bb> wrote:
>"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
>> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 03:28:05 GMT, Francisco Ho <fxho@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >If it does trigger, before it resolve, can I imprint
>> >Beacon of Tomorrows and, basically, creating a lock on my opponent?
>>
>> Yes (and, possibly, yes). It'll cost you 8 to do so, since BoT has a mana
>> cost
>> of 6UU, but the triggered ability chooses between cards imprinted on the
>> Mirror at the time the ability resolves.
>
>Question: Why does the Beacon's second ability to reshuffle it not apply
>here?

Answer: Because what the Mirror puts on the stack is a _copy_ of a BoT spell;
if it leaves the stack it evaporates as a state-based effect. So you do get
to shuffle your library after being granted the extra turn, but no BoT "spell
copy" is in your library afterwards.

This does NOT cause the original BoT to be taken out of the RFG zone and
shuffled back into your library, because it is _not_ the "Beacon of Tomorrows"
referred to by the spell copy on the stack.

>Wouldn't Time Warp be more fun and cheaper?

Cheaper, sure. Time Stretch is more expensive but an even better lock AND
lets you do a different Mirror-imprinted spell every other turn, and Time
Walk is cheapest of all..

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 20 Jun 2004 20:12:56 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:

>Jabberwocky <thunderjedi@theforce.bb> wrote:
>>"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
>>> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 03:28:05 GMT, Francisco Ho <fxho@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >If it does trigger, before it resolve, can I imprint
>>> >Beacon of Tomorrows and, basically, creating a lock on my opponent?
>>>
>>> Yes (and, possibly, yes). It'll cost you 8 to do so, since BoT has a mana
>>> cost
>>> of 6UU, but the triggered ability chooses between cards imprinted on the
>>> Mirror at the time the ability resolves.
>>
>>Question: Why does the Beacon's second ability to reshuffle it not apply
>>here?
>
>Answer: Because what the Mirror puts on the stack is a _copy_ of a BoT spell;
>if it leaves the stack it evaporates as a state-based effect. So you do get
>to shuffle your library after being granted the extra turn, but no BoT "spell
>copy" is in your library afterwards.
>
>This does NOT cause the original BoT to be taken out of the RFG zone and
>shuffled back into your library, because it is _not_ the "Beacon of Tomorrows"
>referred to by the spell copy on the stack.
>
>>Wouldn't Time Warp be more fun and cheaper?
>
>Cheaper, sure. Time Stretch is more expensive but an even better lock AND
>lets you do a different Mirror-imprinted spell every other turn, and Time
>Walk is cheapest of all..
>
>Dave

depends on your definition of cheaper