[SOLVED] First PC out of a friend's spares

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yflpov

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Jan 22, 2018
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Approximate Purchase Date: N/A, parts in stock and given for free by a friend

Budget Range: N/A

System Usage from Most to Least Important: 3D modeling, medium gaming

Are you buying a monitor: No

Parts to Upgrade: I would like some help with the Mobo, CPU, and RAM.

Do you need to buy OS: No

Preferred Website(s) for Parts: N/A

Location: N/A

Parts Preferences: N/A

Overclocking: No / Maybe

SLI or Crossfire: No

Your Monitor Resolution: 1920x1080 at 144Hz

Additional Comments: So far I have settled on a PSU (EVGA 750 GQ), GPU (Nvidia 1660Ti), and SSD (Crucial 480GB).

And Most Importantly, Why Are You Upgrading: I will be building my first PC out of spares a friend of mine has accumulated over the years and I'm free to choose any of the parts I mention.

I would like some help with the Mobo, CPU, and RAM. I have the following to choose from:

Motherboard
  1. MSI B365M PRO-VH (MS-7C31)
  2. Asrock A320M-HDV R4.0
  3. Gigabyte B450M DS3H-CF
  4. Asus H81M-C

CPU
  1. i5-9400F
  2. Ryzen 3 3100
  3. Ryzen 5 2600
  4. i7-4770

RAM
  1. Crucial 8GB DDR4 2666 x1 AND Kingston kvr26n19s6/8 8GB DDR4 2666
  2. Crucial 16GB DDR4 2666
  3. Corsair Vengeance 2x8GB DDR4 3000
  4. G.Skill Trident X 2x8GB DDR3 2400

Thanks all who help!
 

Aeacus

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Easiest choice is RAM:

Corsair Vengeance 2x8GB DDR4 3000

Since all choices are max 16GB, this one has highest frequency and offers most performance.

Now, MoBo is picked based on CPU and CPU selection is tough.

R3 3100, R5 2600 and i7-4770, all, are of equal performance, where i5-9400F is best of the selection,
comparison: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-5-2600-vs-Intel-Core-i5-9400F/3955vs4051

However, the MoBo that pairs with i5-9400F is low end, with only 2 RAM slots (among other things). The most versatile build would be R5 2600 and Gigabyte B450M DS3H-CF. Since with B450 chipset MoBo, you can upgrade your CPU to Ryzen 5000 series with ease and MoBo also has room for RAM expansion, since it has 4 RAM slots. And R5 2600 has 12 threads, 6 more than i5-9400F, which can be beneficial in 3D modeling, if you use CPU render and all available threads.
 
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yflpov

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Jan 22, 2018
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This matches my initial observations but thanks for confirming.

Two questions on the recommended build:
  1. Could you go into a bit more detail why the Gigabyte B450M is better than the MSI B365M (RAM slots, max RAM, and max RAM MHz are obvious to me but surely there is more)?
  2. Is it possible to judge when the Gigabyte B450M will no longer support the latest gen CPUs?

I'm still considering the alternative route of going with the i5 and MSI mobo because of the better CPU. To make up my mind better I have 2 questions:
  1. Which will be become obsolete more quickly - the CPU or the Mobo?
  2. When will 32GB RAM (max for the MSI mobo) be obsolete for moderate to prosumer needs?
 

Aeacus

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Could you go into a bit more detail why the Gigabyte B450M is better than the MSI B365M (RAM slots, max RAM, and max RAM MHz are obvious to me but surely there is more)?

Sure;
Gigabyte specs: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/B450M-DS3H-rev-1x#kf
MSI specs: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/B365M-PRO-VH/

Besides the obvious RAM slot amount, MSI MoBo also doesn't have 2nd PCI-E x16 slot, which Gigabyte MoBo has.
Now, most people hardly ever use 2nd PCI-E x16 slot, but if you're running dual GPU, it is required. Also, if in any event upper PCI-E x16 slot happens to die (it has happened, albeit rarely), you'd still have 2nd PCI-E x16 slot, where to plug your GPU.
Sure, MSI MoBo has PCI-E x16 slot guard (metal strip around the slot) helping to prevent heavier GPUs to sag and eventually break the PCI-E x16 slot. Though, i've only seen 1-2 such cases in my years, where PCI-E x16 slot has broken open. Still, possibility remains.

SATA ports wise, MSI MoBo has 6, while Gigabyte MoBo has 4. And unless you are going to hook up more than 4 SATA drives to your system, this doesn't matter.

USB ports wise, MSI MoBo has total of 12 while Gigabyte MoBo has 14. The two extra USB ports Gigabyte MoBo has, are USB 2.0 ports.

Additional differences you can find out by comparing the specs pages. (Can't do all the work for you now, can i? :) )

Is it possible to judge when the Gigabyte B450M will no longer support the latest gen CPUs?

Yes, and here, we don't need to judge/guess, but it is already established that the new Ryzen 7000 series desktop CPUs/APUs, will not work on the 400-series and current latest 500-series MoBos, since the 600-series MoBos will be using AM5 CPU socket.

Btw, Ryzen 6000 series are laptop CPUs and not desktop CPUs, hence why next series of desktop CPUs are named as 7000 series.

So, in the future, if you plan to upgrade to Ryzen 7000 series, you will need 600-series MoBo. Best you can do with 400-series MoBo (Gigabyte B450M DS3H-CF), is Ryzen 5000 series CPU (e.g R5 5600x), with selective BIOS version, that gives support to Ryzen 5000 series. If not, best you're looking at with Gigabyte MoBo, is Ryzen 3000 series CPU (e.g R5 3600).

Which will be become obsolete more quickly - the CPU or the Mobo?

There is no clear/short answer to this.

Since MoBo defines which CPU you can use, we could say that MoBo becomes obsolete 1st. However, if MoBo is good, offering features that you need, there is no reason to replace it, while keeping the same CPU. Also, almost all people, when upgrading MoBo, are going with new CPU anyways, since MoBo chipsets, support 2 generations of CPUs, before needing to be replaced with newer chipset.

For example;
Intel releases their CPUs based on tick-tock cycle, where tock is architecture (e.g Skylake) and tick is that architecture refresh (e.g Kaby Lake). And for each tick-tock, Intel has two chipsets, that support both the tock and tick CPUs. But do not support older or never CPUs, outside of the tick-tock cycle. Oh one tick-tock cycle takes 2-3 years.
E.g:
Tock - Skylake (6th gen CPU) - 100-series chipset (e.g H150, Z170)
Tick - Kaby Lake (7th gen CPU) - 200-series chipset (e.g B250, Z270)

Tock - Coffee Lake (8th gen CPU) - 300-series chipset (e.g B360, Z390)
Tick - Coffee Lake Refresh (9th gen CPU) - 300-series chipset

Tock - Comet Lake (10th gen CPU) - 400-series chipset (e.g H410, B460, Z490)
Tick - Rocket Lake (11th gen CPU) - 500-series chipset (e.g B560, Z590)

Tock - Alder Lake (12th gen CPU) - 600-series chipset (e.g H670, Z690)
Tick - Raptor Lake (13th gen CPU) - 700-series chipset

Every Tock cycle MoBo will support the following Tick cycle CPU, with latest BIOS. So, when you get yourself a Tock cycle MoBo, e.g B360 chipset, which natively supports 8th gen CPU (e.g i5-8600K), then with BIOS update, you can use any 9th gen CPU as well (e.g i5-9400F). But if you want to use newer CPU, e.g 10th gen, then you will need a new MoBo.

I find this Intel tock-tick cycle neat, especially when you get Tock cycle MoBo, since you can be rest assured that the next gen CPU will also work, giving you option for future use.
Now, getting Tick cycle MoBo isn't that good, since you will be stuck with that CPU generation and upgrading CPU to next gen, will require MoBo upgrade as well.

---

AMD, in the other hand, with their Ryzen series, wanted to break this tick-tock cycle of Intel (since for some consumers, their MoBo supporting only 2 generations of CPUs is too little), AMD boldly claimed that they will keep CPU support for their MoBo far longer. And in a way, they have done it, but with caveats, making the situation far more complex for end users, to figure out which chipset supports which CPU.

Here is the current Ryzen CPU vs chipset support table,
link: https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/b550
(Either scroll down or click Specifications)

As we can see, AMD 300-series chipset support 3 CPU generations: Ryzen 1000 series, 2000 series and 3000 series, where latter needs to have beta BIOS. Next in line, AMD 400-series chipset also supports 3 generations of CPUs; 2000 series, 3000 series and 5000 series. Again, latter with beta BIOS.

One could assume, that the current AMD 500-series chipset will also support 3 generations of CPUs; the latest 5000 series, upcoming 7000 series and another series in the future.
However, this is not the case, since AMD with their 600-series chipset, will change out the aging AM4 CPU socket, in favor of AM5 CPU socket and that means, that the new Ryzen 7000 series CPUs, all of them, will need a new MoBo.

There is a reason why Intel does it's tick-tock cycle, keeping 2 generations of CPUs supported by 2 chipset generations. It gives a good balance in terms of latest tech, CPUs and MoBos can offer, without being hindered by backwards compatibility. AMD did try to do it differently but even they can not keep way old chipset compatible with much newer CPUs.

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So, to answer your question; which becomes obsolete 1st, CPU or MoBo. It depends on what chipset MoBo are you getting. And how willing are you to keep using what you can currently afford.

For example, my main PC uses 6th gen Intel CPU (i5-6600K) and 100-series chipset MoBo (Z170), which i bought back in Q4 2016 (Skylake build, full specs with pics in my sig). Now, since i got myself a Tock MoBo, with BIOS update, i can upgrade my CPU to any 7th gen CPU, if i so desire (e.g i7-7700K). However, based on my needs, i haven't had a need to do that. My CPU is still strong for my tasks and i'm happy with what i have.

Currently, i could go with latest Tock MoBo from Intel side, 600-series chipset, but since that means i need to use DDR5 RAM (i can buy 600-series MoBo that supports DDR4), i haven't had the real need for that as of now. Since i don't want to spend the fortune what DDR5 RAM costs, at least not at current moment.

When will 32GB RAM (max for the MSI mobo) be obsolete for moderate to prosumer needs?

Currently, for consumer, 16 GB is the norm, while 32 GB are sometimes suggested, for future proofing based on what direction gaming world is headed. But for producers, 32 GB is bare minimum, while 64 GB is suggested. Since any 3D work needs a lot of RAM. Many 3D work builds have 128 GB of RAM to make the work better. Essentially, its 1:4 ratio, between consumer RAM amount and workstation RAM amount. So, when consumer norm would be 8 GB, workstation norm would be 32 GB. When consumer norm is 16 GB, workstation norm would be 64 GB. And so forth.
 

yflpov

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Jan 22, 2018
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Massive thank you, @Aeacus , for the amount of info in your reply!! I literally needed to read it through 2 times (at lunch and at dinner) to soak it all in. Comparing USB slots and what-not myself I find reasonable enough as it's a matter of looking out for the numbers but I was lacking knowledge on GPU/Mobo generations and compatibility. Your explanation answered the vast majority of my questions!

The way I see it have two options:
1) MSI B365M + i5-9400F
Main benefit: The i5-9400F is about 15% better than the Ryzen 5 2600.
Main limitation: This CPU works with a mobo that supports max 32GB RAM.
How to maximise this setup: upgrade mobo to one that accepts max 64/128GB.
Context: Mobos that support max 128GB are already hard to come by while the mobos that support max 64GB currently cost about 80 euro. I expect to need an upgrade in RAM beyond 32GB within 1-3 years.
Question: How likely is it that mobos with max 64/128GB RAM will become unavailable within 1-3 years?

2) Gigabyte B450M + Ryzen 5 2600
Main benefit: Mobo supports max 128GB RAM.
Main limitation: The i5-9400F is about 15% better than the Ryzen 5 2600.
How to maximise this setup: Upgrade to Ryzen 5000 series CPU.
Context: What appears to be the best bang-for-buck- 5000 series CPU is currently the Ryzen 5 5600 which costs about 230 euro and is about 30% better than the Ryzen 5 2600. The second-best bang-for-buck CPU appears to be the Ryzen 7 5800 which costs about 370 euro and is about 46% better than the Ryzen 5 2600. I expect to need an upgrade of CPU within 2-5 years and that the more powerful CPU won't outgrow the max 128GB RAM of the mobo.

I'm inclined to go with the second option which, indeed, is what your recommendation was. However, I've got a few questions about that:
1) About every how often is a new CPU series from Ryzen released?
2)What is likely to happen to the price of the Ryzen 5 5600/Ryzen 7 5800 within 2-5 years?
 
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Aeacus

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Question: How likely is it that mobos with max 64/128GB RAM will become unavailable within 1-3 years?

Very unlikely.

i5-9400F needs 300-series chipset MoBo and at current time, there are plenty to choose from,
pcpp: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/m...sort=price&page=1&D=68719476736,2147483648000
(I filtered the search by excluding max 32GB MoBos.)

I also looked up much older, Z170 chipset MoBo (same chipset i'm currently using) and if i wanted to replace my MoBo or when MoBo would die, i still have an option to buy another Z170 chipset MoBo, brand new btw,
amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Asus-Z170-A-ATX-DDR4-Motherboards/dp/B013KS5TAE

This doesn't cover 2nd hand market (used items). But if you're willing to buy 2nd hand, the option is far greater.
Gave a quick search of Z170 in Ebay and there are loads of options,
ebay: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=z170+motherboard&_sacat=0

So, with this, i don't think the 300-series MoBos would disappear any time soon from the market, especially when given that much older, 100-series chipset MoBos are still readily available (both new and used).

1) About every how often is a new CPU series from Ryzen released?

Ryzen CPU release dates thus far have been:
Ryzen 1000 series - between March 2, 2017 to July 27, 2017.
Ryzen 2000 series - between April 19, 2018 to September 11, 2018.
Ryzen 3000 series - between April 21, 2020 to October 8, 2019.
Ryzen 5000 series - between November 5, 2020 to January 12, 2021.
Ryzen 7000 series - stated by AMD to be released in second half of 2022.

Exact dates in here,
wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryzen#Product_lineup

So, it was essentially every year, until COVID hit and delayed the CPU releases.

On Intel side;
Skylake - August 5, 2015.
Kaby Lake - August 30, 2016.
Coffee Lake - October 5, 2017.
Coffee Lake Refresh - October 8, 2018.
Comet Lake - August 21, 2019.
Rocket Lake - March 30, 2021.
Alder Lake - November 4, 2021 .
Raptor Lake - rumored in Q4 2022 or later.

What is likely to happen to the price of the Ryzen 5 5600/Ryzen 7 5800 within 2-5 years?

For a brand new CPU, i'd say the price remains at MSRP (Manufacturer Suggester Retail Price) or may even go higher, since the supply will diminish.
For a used CPU, i have no clue, since used CPUs are priced by personal feelings of sellers themselves.

E.g Ryzen 1000 series,
pcpp: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/cpu/#m=6&F=78&sort=price&page=1

Despite their age, they do not cost peanuts.

E.g Ryzen 5 1600,
amazon: https://www.amazon.com/AMD-Processor-Wraith-Cooler-YD1600BBAEBOX/dp/B06XNRQHG4

It currently costs $277 USD, while the MSRP of it is $219 USD.

---

PC hardware prices are defined by the supply and demand ratio. If there is high supply but low demand, the price will drop. E.g some low-end, weak CPUs, no-one wants. But if there is short supply and high demand, the prices will skyrocket. E.g any modern GPU, which are currently selling 3-4 times of MSRP.
 

yflpov

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Jan 22, 2018
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It's settled, I'm going for the Gigabyte B450M + Ryzen 5 2600 setup. The first (but not immediate) upgrade will be RAM and down the road a 5000 series CPU.

Thanks a lot for your replies and for the additional info you've provided! Your input has been thoroughly appreciated and I don't think that I would be able to make the informed decision I did without your involvement. I salute you, sir!

Cheers and take care!
 
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