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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Right, let me set the scene,
I have in play: Krarks Thumb, Ivory Mask, Bottle of Suleiman, Chance
Encounter, and Mana Clash

1)Because I have Ivory Mask out, do I get any effects from Bottle of
Suleiman?
2)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I be targeted by mana clash?
3)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I use Krarks Thumb's abilty?
4)Because I have Ivory Mask out, Do I get any counters on Chance
Encounter?

My Thinking
1) No
2) No
3) Yes
4) No
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Zhambah <zhambah@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Right, let me set the scene,
> I have in play: Krarks Thumb, Ivory Mask, Bottle of Suleiman, Chance
> Encounter, and Mana Clash

Krark's Thumb
{2}
Legendary Artifact
If you would flip a coin, instead flip two coins and ignore one.

Ivory Mask
{2}{W}{W}
Enchantment
You can't be the target of spells or abilities.

Bottle of Suleiman
{4}
Artifact
{1}, Sacrifice Bottle of Suleiman: Flip a coin. If you lose the flip,
Bottle of Suleiman deals 5 damage to you. If you win the flip, put a 5/5
Djinn artifact creature token with flying into play.

Chance Encounter
{2}{R}{R}
Enchantment
Whenever you win a coin flip, put a luck counter on Chance Encounter.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Chance Encounter has ten or more
luck counters on it, you win the game.

Mana Clash
{R}
Sorcery
You and target opponent each flip a coin. Mana Clash deals 1 damage to
each player whose coin comes up tails. Repeat this process until both
players' coins come up heads on the same flip.

You don't have Mana Clash in play.

212.7d Sorceries can't come into play. If a sorcery would come into
play, it remains in its previous zone instead.

> 1)Because I have Ivory Mask out, do I get any effects from Bottle of
> Suleiman?

I see nothing about Ivory Mask that might interfere with the ability of
Bottle of Suleiman. Bottle of Suleiman has no targeted ability.

> 2)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I be targeted by mana clash?

You can't be the target of *your* Mana Clash even without Ivory Mask in
play. Ivory Mask means that you can't be the target of your opponent's
Mana Clash either.

> 3)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I use Krarks Thumb's abilty?

You must use that ability; you have no choice. (If it said "you may",
you would have the option of not using the ability.)

> 4)Because I have Ivory Mask out, Do I get any counters on Chance
> Encounter?

I see nothing about Ivory Mask that might interfere with either ability
of Chance Encounter. Chance Encounter has no targeted ability.

> My Thinking
> 1) No
> 2) No
> 3) Yes
> 4) No

Target
Whenever the phrase "target [something]," where [something] is a phrase
that describes an object or player, appears in a spell or ability, the
controller of the spell or ability chooses something that matches
whatever follows that word. The choice of a spell or ability's targets
is made when the spell or ability is played. See rule 415, "Targeted
Spells and Abilities."
An instant or sorcery is targeted if the text that will be followed
when it resolves uses the phrase "target [something]," where the
"something" is a phrase that describes an object or player. (If an
activated or triggered ability of an instant or sorcery uses the word
target, that ability is targeted, but the spell is not.)
An activated or triggered ability is targeted if it uses the phrase
"target [something]," where the "something" is a phrase that describes
an object or player.
Local-enchantment spells are always targeted, even though they
don't use the phrase "target [something]." They target the permanent or
player they will enchant. (See rule 415.3.) A local-enchantment
permanent doesn't target anything.
Neither Equipment spells nor Equipment permanents are targeted.
(See rule 415.3.) An Equipment may have abilities which are targeted.
A spell or ability on the stack can't target itself.
A spell that targets the same object or player more than once isn't
a "spell with a single target."

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Zhambah wrote:

> Right, let me set the scene,
> I have in play: Krarks Thumb, Ivory Mask, Bottle of Suleiman, Chance
> Encounter, and Mana Clash

And how, exactly, did you manage to put a sorcery in play? Anyways...

Krark's Thumb
{2}
Legendary Artifact
If you would flip a coin, instead flip two coins and ignore one.

Ivory Mask
{2}{W}{W}
Enchantment
You can't be the target of spells or abilities.

Bottle of Suleiman
{4}
Artifact
{1}, Sacrifice Bottle of Suleiman: Flip a coin. If you lose the flip,
Bottle of Suleiman deals 5 damage to you. If you win the flip, put a
5/5 Djinn artifact creature token with flying into play.

Chance Encounter
{2}{R}{R}
Enchantment
Whenever you win a coin flip, put a luck counter on Chance
Encounter. At the beginning of your upkeep, if Chance
Encounter has ten or more luck counters on it, you win the
game.

Mana Clash
{R}
Sorcery
You and target opponent each flip a coin. Mana Clash deals 1 damage to
each player whose coin comes up tails. Repeat this process until both
players' coins come up heads on the same flip.




>
> 1)Because I have Ivory Mask out, do I get any effects from Bottle of
> Suleiman?
> 2)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I be targeted by mana clash?
> 3)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I use Krarks Thumb's abilty?
> 4)Because I have Ivory Mask out, Do I get any counters on Chance
> Encounter?
>
> My Thinking
> 1) No

Wrong. The Bottle's ability doesn't target anything (note the
complete absence of the word "target" on the card). The Mask
doesn't affect it at all.

> 2) No

Correct. Your opponent can't play it targetting you--in a
two player game, he can't play it all. *You*, however,
can play it targetting your opponent, in which case it
works absolutely normally, and you will take damage
from it.

> 3) Yes

Correct again. Krark's Thumb doesn't target anything.

> 4) No

Sorry, wrong. Chance Encounter doesn't target anything.
Once again, note the complete absence of the word "target".

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

415.7c The word “you” in an object’s text isn’t a target.

Zhambah wrote:
> Right, let me set the scene,
> I have in play: Krarks Thumb, Ivory Mask, Bottle of Suleiman, Chance
> Encounter, and Mana Clash
>
> 1)Because I have Ivory Mask out, do I get any effects from Bottle of
> Suleiman?
> 2)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I be targeted by mana clash?
> 3)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I use Krarks Thumb's abilty?
> 4)Because I have Ivory Mask out, Do I get any counters on Chance
> Encounter?
>
> My Thinking
> 1) No
> 2) No
> 3) Yes
> 4) No
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> Right, let me set the scene,
> I have in play: Krarks Thumb, Ivory Mask, Bottle of Suleiman, Chance
> Encounter, and Mana Clash
>
> 1)Because I have Ivory Mask out, do I get any effects from Bottle of
> Suleiman?

Ivory Mask
{2}{W}{W}
Enchantment
You can't be the target of spells or abilities.

Bottle of Suleiman
{4}
Artifact
{1}, Sacrifice Bottle of Suleiman: Flip a coin. If you lose the flip, Bottle
of Suleiman deals 5 damage to you. If you win the flip, put a 5/5 Djinn
artifact creature token with flying into play.

The Mask doesn't make you unable to flip the coin, it only cares about
targetted things. If you win the flip, you'll get your 5/5 token. If you
lose, hmm... I was going to say you don't take damage, but there's no word
"target", so you'll still take 5.


> 2)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I be targeted by mana clash?

Mana Clash
{R}
Sorcery
You and target opponent each flip a coin. Mana Clash deals 1 damage to each
player whose coin comes up tails. Repeat this process until both players'
coins come up heads on the same flip.

The only "target" is your opponent, and your Ivory Mask doesn't care
about that. Both of you will take whatever damage shows up.


> 3)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I use Krarks Thumb's abilty?

Krark's Thumb
{2}
Legendary Artifact
If you would flip a coin, instead flip two coins and ignore one.

No word "target", no effect from the Mask.


> 4)Because I have Ivory Mask out, Do I get any counters on Chance
> Encounter?

Chance Encounter
{2}{R}{R}
Enchantment
Whenever you win a coin flip, put a luck counter on Chance Encounter.
At the beginning of your upkeep, if Chance Encounter has ten or more luck
counters on it, you win the game.

No word "target", no effect from the Mask.


> My Thinking
> 1) No
> 2) No
> 3) Yes
> 4) No

All yes.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Zhambah, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Right, let me set the scene,
> I have in play: Krarks Thumb, Ivory Mask, Bottle of Suleiman, Chance
> Encounter, and Mana Clash
>
> 1)Because I have Ivory Mask out, do I get any effects from Bottle of
> Suleiman?
> 2)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I be targeted by mana clash?
> 3)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I use Krarks Thumb's abilty?
> 4)Because I have Ivory Mask out, Do I get any counters on Chance
> Encounter?
>
> My Thinking
> 1) No
> 2) No
> 3) Yes
> 4) No

Only two things in Magic ever target anything:
1. Anything that specifically uses the word "target"
2. Local enchantment spells, as they're being played (but contrary to
popular belief, *not* once they've entered play).

Note that you need to go by the Oracle wording, not necessarily what's
printed on the card. In general, the older the card, the less likely the
wording printed on it is to still be correct. For example, many older
local enchantments refer to the "target creature" when they should,
under the current rules, say "enchanted creature". I doubt there are any
cards from the first few sets, other than creatures with no non-keyword
abilities, whose earliest printed wordings match their current Oracle
wordings.

None of the cards you mention use the word "target" except Mana Clash,
which targets only the opponent of the player who uses it. (And none of
them are local enchantments.) Therefore, Ivory Mask does not prevent you
from playing any of them, though it does prevent your opponent from
playing Mana Clash targeting you. Therefore, of your answers, 2 and 3
are correct for the questions as you worded them, and 1 and 4 are wrong.

(At least one person mistakenly said the answer to #2 was "yes", but I'm
fairly sure he misread your question #2. But your wording of question #2
may not match what you intended by asking it; *you* can play Mana Clash
perfectly well, precisely because that is *not* a case of you being
targeted by it.)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen wrote:

> I doubt there are any
> cards from the first few sets, other than creatures with no non-keyword
> abilities, whose earliest printed wordings match their current Oracle
> wordings.

Nope, they're different too! 'Cause now they say "Creature -- X"
instead of "Summon X".


--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 15:21:38 -0400, Zhambah <zhambah@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Right, let me set the scene,
>I have in play: Krarks Thumb, Ivory Mask, Bottle of Suleiman, Chance
>Encounter, and Mana Clash

So you get to take the better of two flips, can't be the target of spells
or abilities, get a counter for each ACTUAL flip, and have a Bottle ready.
You can't possibly have a Mana Clash in play, because it's a Sorcery card,
so I assume you mean you have one in your hand.

>1)Because I have Ivory Mask out, do I get any effects from Bottle of
>Suleiman?
>2)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I be targeted by mana clash?
>3)Because I have Ivory Mask out, can I use Krarks Thumb's abilty?
>4)Because I have Ivory Mask out, Do I get any counters on Chance
>Encounter?

Ivory Mask's text is very simple: you can't be the TARGET of spells or
abilities. This stops targetted spells (including "Enchant Player" spells
from Unglued) from targetting you, and stops targetted abilities from
targetting you. That's ALL it does.

Bottle of Suleiman does not have a targetted ability. Krark's Thumb does not
have a targetted ability. Chance Encounter does not have any targetted
abilities. Because of this, Ivory Mask doesn't interact with them at ALL.

Mana Clash is a targetted spell, that targets an _opponent_. Your Ivory Mask
does not interact at all with your Mana Clash; opponent's Ivory Mask would
stop you from targetting him with it, and your Ivory Mask would stop HIM from
targetting YOU with HIS Mana Clash. Mana Clash -affects- its caster, and does
not TARGET its caster in any way.

To target something, a spell or ability in Magic has to either
a) use the word "target" in its text, followed by a description of what the
target must be, or
b) be a local enchantment spell (any enchantment _spell_ that's not an
Enchantment or World Enchantment spell).

Of the four things you're asking about, only Mana Clash is targetted, and it
only targets your -opponent-.

Also: Krark's Thumb does not let you put twice as many counters on Chance
Encounter - the flip you ignore is TOTALLY ignored by everything, as if it
had never happened. Chance Encounter only triggers for the flips you "keep".

>My Thinking
>1) No
>2) No
>3) Yes
>4) No

The actual answers:
1) Yes, since the Bottle's activated ability is not targetted at all.
2) You can't be the target of opponent's Mana Clash; this does not stop you
from casting your OWN Mana Clash and targetting opponent.
3) Yes, since Krark's Thumb's replacement ability is not targetted at all.
4) Yes, since Chance Encounter's abilities are not targetted at all.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen <oh@s.if> wrote:
>I doubt there are any
>cards from the first few sets, other than creatures with no non-keyword
>abilities, whose earliest printed wordings match their current Oracle
>wordings.

None of the creatures from UL still match, at least the ones that used to say
"Summon". Obsianus Golem is now an Artifact Creature - Golem, so doesn't
either, and the other three artifact creatures have all had wording changes.
All the Artifacts except Jade Statue originally had an artifact type, and
Jade Statue now has a different wording; the basic and nonbasic UL lands
are all reworded (they don't have TEXT anymore); all the Interrupts are
not Interrupts any more. Crusade, Holy Strength, etc., now say 'get(s)'
instead of 'gain(s)'; the targetted spells mostly didn't SAY 'target' to
start with - the -rules- told you how to tell if something was targetted;

There is exactly one card from UL that's still exactly the same, Stream of
Life... From AN, we find Dancing Scimitar, and from AQ we have the lowly
Ornithopter. And that's it up through those expansions...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Jeff Heikkinen wrote:
>
> > I doubt there are any
> > cards from the first few sets, other than creatures with no non-keyword
> > abilities, whose earliest printed wordings match their current Oracle
> > wordings.
>
> Nope, they're different too! 'Cause now they say "Creature -- X"
> instead of "Summon X".

Good point!

By the way, where is the quote in your .sig from? It sounds familiar
(flavour text from some card, maybe?) but I can't place it.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen sez:

<<
>By the way, where is the quote in your .sig from? It sounds familiar
>(flavour text from some card, maybe?) but I can't place it.
>
>>

Actually, it's a Firefly quote...I've used a couple in my .sig's too...




----
Wait..."Either he's going to break all these promises he made, or he's going to
raise taxes." Bush just said the same thing twice.
--Peter David on 10/8 Debate
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Andy Jakcsy, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Jeff Heikkinen sez:
>
> <<
> >By the way, where is the quote in your .sig from? It sounds familiar
> >(flavour text from some card, maybe?) but I can't place it.
> >
> >>
>
> Actually, it's a Firefly quote...I've used a couple in my .sig's too...

Ah. Joss Whedon's ear for dialogue strikes again.

Never actually seen any episodes of that, but people keep telling me
good things about it.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jeff Heikkinen wrote:

> Andy Jakcsy, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
>> Jeff Heikkinen sez:
>>
>> <<
>> >By the way, where is the quote in your .sig from? It sounds familiar
>> >(flavour text from some card, maybe?) but I can't place it.
>> >
>> >>
>>
>> Actually, it's a Firefly quote...I've used a couple in my .sig's too...
>
> Ah. Joss Whedon's ear for dialogue strikes again.
>
> Never actually seen any episodes of that, but people keep telling me
> good things about it.

I liked it a bunch. Never got a chance to see it when it was
running, but bought the DVD set as soon as it came out. Good
stuff.
--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

matt wrote:
>>Only two things in Magic ever target anything:
>>1. Anything that specifically uses the word "target"
>>2. Local enchantment spells, as they're being played (but contrary to
>>popular belief, *not* once they've entered play).
>
>
> In addition trying to equip something with an equipment
> also targets. Once it is on the creature it does not target like
> enchantments.
>

(Local) Echantments do not target once it is on the creature, it
enchants. And the creature is said to be enchanted. For equipments, it
the same except that they are attached or the creature is equiped.

In the past some, local enchantments that were saying that a creature
"could not be the target of spell", permitted for the local enchantments
already on the creature to stay and others not, mixed with protection
from a color, that cause some confusion among some players, so they and
to change that.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:57:53 -0700, matt <urzaserra@cox.net> wrote:
>> Only two things in Magic ever target anything:
>> 1. Anything that specifically uses the word "target"
>> 2. Local enchantment spells, as they're being played (but contrary to
>> popular belief, *not* once they've entered play).
>
>In addition trying to equip something with an equipment
>also targets.

And the rule for the Equip ability uses? The word "target". As does the
reminder text for Equip on most cards that have that ability.

> Once it is on the creature it does not target like enchantments.

I think you meant to arrange that sentence differently: "Like enchantments,
once it is on the creature it does not target". You probably didn't want to
imply that enchantments -do- target once they are on their creature...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.