Fox calling: New recorder

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Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Here's an interesting one!

There is apparently a new range of bird and animal calls on the
market which are becoming quite popular for lamping foxes. (Do a
search on Cass Electronic Calls. I think these must be the
ones. They are, of course, American). These are not tape
recorders but have various calls recorded on a chip.

Under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, it is illegal to
use "a tape recording" to lure most animals and birds within
range for a shot.

But a hard disc recorder is not a "tape" recorder! They weren't
about in 1981 when the Act was drafted! (Nor, it seems, is a
mini-disc recorder, CD recorder, etc., i.e. every recording
device EXCEPT the specified "tape" recorder).

The question is, are the police and courts going to apply the
law as it is written or as Parliament presumably intended, i.e.
to convict those proven to have made use of a recorded animal or
bird call for shooting in the EU?

I would imagine that in the meantime everyone is far too busy
trying to ban fox hunting to bother about re-drafting the
legislation!

Derry
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Derry Argue <derry(delete)@adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in
news:Xns95CE5D0F25083derryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4:

> Here's an interesting one!
>
> There is apparently a new range of bird and animal calls on the
> market which are becoming quite popular for lamping foxes. (Do a
> search on Cass Electronic Calls. I think these must be the
> ones. They are, of course, American). These are not tape
> recorders but have various calls recorded on a chip.
>
> Under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, it is illegal to
> use "a tape recording" to lure most animals and birds within
> range for a shot.
>
> But a hard disc recorder is not a "tape" recorder! They weren't
> about in 1981 when the Act was drafted! (Nor, it seems, is a
> mini-disc recorder, CD recorder, etc., i.e. every recording
> device EXCEPT the specified "tape" recorder).

As you say the only thing that can not be used is a “tape” recording. So
CD’s, digital recorders and the like are all okay, or at least this is
my understanding. Also I think you’ll find that you can not use sounds
of “live” animals. Basically this means you can use sounds made by
calls.
I have been using a home made CD for a few years now and it works well.
I call it my “fox-box”. Basically it’s a portable CD player. Simple to
make. All you need is a CD of fox call sounds, a Sony walkman type
personal CD player, a 12 volt car audio amp/graphic equaliser, a 12 volt
lamping battery, a speaker and a box to put it all in. All the bits can
be found in car boot sales and shouldn’t cost more that ten pounds.

>
> The question is, are the police and courts going to apply the
> law as it is written or as Parliament presumably intended, i.e.
> to convict those proven to have made use of a recorded animal or
> bird call for shooting in the EU?
>
> I would imagine that in the meantime everyone is far too busy
> trying to ban fox hunting to bother about re-drafting the
> legislation!

In work we have a bird box, which produces alarm calls and distress
calls of Starlings & Sparrows, it works too.

John
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Ipod or Palm handhelds work a treat with MP3s of calls on them

I use my Palm Tungsten, with Magpie calls in MP3 format
those mini-speakers for walkmans (that plug into the earphone jack) work
well

I can attract Magpies well within shooting range of my air rifle

I also use those small lightbulbs (for uplighters) as dummy eggs

Once they come in to see where their friend is calling from,
they see the 'eggs' and become even easier targets

--
Andy (UK_Rabbiter)
Creator, Manager & Moderator of Rabbit Hunters
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Rabbit
http://groups.msn.com/RabbitHunters
http://s7.invisionfree.com/Rabbit_Hunters
My site
www.ukrabbiter.co.uk
http://spaces.msn.com/members/ukrabbiter/
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

John <zero_one34@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns95CE61AFDBBEEOEcopyremovedheaders@130.133.1.4:

> Also I think you’ll find that you can not use sounds
> of “live” animals. Basically this means you can use sounds
> made by calls.
>

Oh, how I love the law!!<G> No kidding. A brother of my
grandfather started up a law firm in Sligo called "Argue &
Phibbs". I kid you not. If you ever go to Ireland, look in the
phone book. They are still there!

So, to my next question. How would they prove it was a "live"
recording and not Uncle Fred (who sadly passed away last
Thursday so can't stand up in court and prove he is even better
than the real thing<vbg>)?

Derry
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Derry - and the even better thing is... anyone who wants one can buy one
through myself... have to check price but anyody on NG who wants a price please
e-mail me.... I have access to 3 of theese machines, and they are a kind of CD
player type caller.. my business associate who imported them has so far used it
on two occassions to shoot two foxes!

Matt

flintwooduk@aol*.com
(remove * to e-mail)
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Derry Argue <derry(delete)@adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in
news:Xns95CEAC5A8407Aderryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4:
> So, to my next question. How would they prove it was a "live"
> recording and not Uncle Fred (who sadly passed away last
> Thursday so can't stand up in court and prove he is even better
> than the real thing<vbg>)?

When I made my CD for my Fox-box I asked myself the same question.
I guess it wouldn’t be hard to distinguish between the sound of a real
animal and the sound of a call. Audio engineers can isolate different
frequencies that occur in the sound spectrum and for example frequencies
that occur outside of the audible sound spectrum. I would hazard a guess
that rabbits for example can produce many high frequencies that we can
not hear and frequencies that calls can not reproduce in the same wave
patterns.
My fox-box has proved very effective, even to the point that I no longer
use the box unless I have a difficult job on my hands, it really works.
I used to place the box out in to the middle of a field, bait it with a
rabbit and put and IR monitor light under the rabbit. Using NV
binoculars I used to keep an eye out, as soon as I saw the IR led I used
to switch the lamp on and shoot. The whole combination was extremely
effective in areas of high lamping activity.

These days with the advent of CD burners, its child’s play to produce
your own electronic call system, one way is to get a professionally made
fox calling tape, connect a tape player to the “audio-in” jack on your
sound card and record the sound. Then simple burn it to a CD as an audio
track.

As I say I guess my fox-box cost less than £10. IIRC Johnny Steward
(??????) produced a fine set of tapes back in the eighties (?), these
could easily be “digitised” on to a CD for use (copy rights aside).
I’ve been thinking of using a similar system on Roe (I know it is
illegal to use any electronic calling system to stalk deer). My idea was
not to use it whilst stalking, but to connect it to a timer. Basically
the timer would be set for the rutting season and produce a “Come-here-
big-boy” call at a given time, this would then be combined with a simple
pheromone distributor.
All pie-in-the-sky project plans that I think of but never have the time
to make.

John
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

flintwooduk@aol.com (FLINTWOODUK) wrote in
news:20041229122637.06251.00001556@mb-m27.aol.com:

> Derry - and the even better thing is... anyone who wants
> one can buy one through myself... have to check price but
> anyody on NG who wants a price please e-mail me.... I have
> access to 3 of theese machines, and they are a kind of CD
> player type caller.. my business associate who imported
> them has so far used it on two occassions to shoot two
> foxes!
>
> Matt
>
> flintwooduk@aol*.com
> (remove * to e-mail)

I had the local fox expert in the other day to collect dog food.
He said he had had a good night at the foxes using the caller. I
thought he said he had got one fox. But he corrected me. It was
eleven! In one evening! Foxes are not so easily shot in this
part of the world as every hand is against them.

I once used a recording of a chicken being pulled off the perch
by the legs at night. It was not even dark and I just tried the
recorder to see if it was working. Shone the light around and
picked up two pairs of eyes heading up the field like
greyhounds! Unfortunately, the wind was wrong but it taught me
that there are plenty of calls that work without having to
resort to the traditional rabbit squeak!

Of course, I had no intentions of shooting the dear little
things....Just wanted to put salt on their tails<g>.

Derry
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

In message <Xns95CE5D0F25083derryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4>, Derry
Argue <derry@adviegundogs.co.uk> writes
>Here's an interesting one!
>
>There is apparently a new range of bird and animal calls on the
>market which are becoming quite popular for lamping foxes. (Do a
>search on Cass Electronic Calls. I think these must be the
>ones. They are, of course, American). These are not tape
>recorders but have various calls recorded on a chip.
>
>Under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, it is illegal to
>use "a tape recording" to lure most animals and birds within
>range for a shot.
>
>But a hard disc recorder is not a "tape" recorder! They weren't
>about in 1981 when the Act was drafted! (Nor, it seems, is a
>mini-disc recorder, CD recorder, etc., i.e. every recording
>device EXCEPT the specified "tape" recorder).
>
>The question is, are the police and courts going to apply the
>law as it is written or as Parliament presumably intended, i.e.
>to convict those proven to have made use of a recorded animal or
>bird call for shooting in the EU?
>
>I would imagine that in the meantime everyone is far too busy
>trying to ban fox hunting to bother about re-drafting the
>legislation!
>

As it happens, the 1981 W&C Act is going to be revised when
Parliamentary time permits. The consultation on it has just started.
See: http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/index.htm

However, there won't be any need to change the sections prohibiting the
use of recordings to lure animals and birds because, contrary to what
you say above, the wording is actually "sound recording" and not "tape
recording", so all your speculation about other types of machine, etc.,
is completely without point! Parliament, in this instance, appear to
have "future-proofed" the legislation and got exactly what they
intended.

Furthermore, the Act doesn't actually specify what the "sound recording"
has to consist of to be illegal. The wording for both birds (5.1.d) and
animals (11.2.d) both just say "If any person uses as a
decoy.........any sound recording..........he shall be guilty of an
offence".

--
Alec
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Alec <A@mao.me.uk> wrote in news:W9Rk5xNWMX1BFwnl@indaal.demon.co.uk:

Actually,

The use of sound recordings as “decoys “ for birds is prohibited.
Prohibited weapons and methods used to kill or take Schedule 6 animals
Under Section 11(2)(c), (d) and (e) it is an offence to kill or take a
Schedule 6 animal by using:
* Any automatic or semi-automatic weapon;
* Any device for illuminating a target, or a night sight;
* Any form of artificial light, mirror or other dazzling device;
* Any smoke or gas;
* Any decoy by means of a sound recording;
* Any mechanically propelled vehicle (or aircraft, hovercraft or boat -
see Section 27(1) WCA) in immediate pursuit of an animal.

May I draw your attention to the fact that the above is ONLY relivant to
scedule “6” animals which are :

* Badger
* Bats, Horseshoe (all species)
* Bats, typical (all species)
* Cat, Wild
* Dolphin, bottle-nosed
* Dolphin, common
* Dormice (All species)
* Hedgehog
* Pine Parten
* Common Otter
* Polecat
* Porpoise, Harbour or Common
* Shrews (all species)
* Squirrel, Red
There is nothing in this legislation to stop you using a sound recording
to lure a fox for example. However there is legislation to stop you
tourturing a rabbit, recording it and using the recording to lure a fox.

John
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

In message <Xns95D0A98C483A0OEcopyremovedheaders@130.133.1.4>, John
<deerstalker@gmail.com> writes
>Alec <A@mao.me.uk> wrote in news:W9Rk5xNWMX1BFwnl@indaal.demon.co.uk:
>
>Actually,
>
>The use of sound recordings as "decoys " for birds is prohibited.
>
>* Any decoy by means of a sound recording;
>
>May I draw your attention to the fact that the above is ONLY relivant to
>scedule "6� animals which are :
>
Thanks for the extra detail, and especially the important reference to
Schedule 6 which I had overlooked. You reinforce the point that the Act
mentions "sound" recording, not "tape" recording, as Derry believed when
he started the thread.

--
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Alec <A@mao.me.uk> wrote in
news:AFyhHhSZuY1BFwXG@indaal.demon.co.uk:

> You reinforce the point that the Act
> mentions "sound" recording, not "tape" recording, as Derry
> believed when he started the thread.
>

Perhaps some kind person will post a URL for the Wildlife and
Countryside Act 1981. A cut and paste of the relevant clause/s
would also be nice.

Its just that my source is a local police office who researched
the law before purchasing one of these hard disc recorders for
his own personal use in fox control!<g>

Derry
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

http://www.naturenet.net/law/wca.html

--
Andy (UK_Rabbiter)
Creator, Manager & Moderator of Rabbit Hunters
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/Rabbit
http://groups.msn.com/RabbitHunters
http://s7.invisionfree.com/Rabbit_Hunters
My site
www.ukrabbiter.co.uk
http://spaces.msn.com/members/ukrabbiter/

Derry Argue wrote:
> Alec wrote:
>
>> You reinforce the point that the Act
>> mentions "sound" recording, not "tape" recording, as Derry
>> believed when he started the thread.
>>
>
> Perhaps some kind person will post a URL for the Wildlife and
> Countryside Act 1981. A cut and paste of the relevant clause/s
> would also be nice.
>
> Its just that my source is a local police office who researched
> the law before purchasing one of these hard disc recorders for
> his own personal use in fox control!<g>
>
> Derry
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

"Andy www.ukrabbiter.co.uk" <andy@ukrabbiter.co.uk> wrote in
news:33lst7F42fb3nU1@individual.net:

> http://www.naturenet.net/law/wca.html
>

Yes, many thanks but I found that one, but it is not the Act. I
need to see the original text, not an interpretation.

Derry
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Derry Argue <derry(delete)@adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in
news:Xns95D0E1B529C40derryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4:

> "Andy www.ukrabbiter.co.uk" <andy@ukrabbiter.co.uk> wrote in
> news:33lst7F42fb3nU1@individual.net:
>
>> http://www.naturenet.net/law/wca.html
>>
>
> Yes, many thanks but I found that one, but it is not the Act. I
> need to see the original text, not an interpretation.

Derry, I searched through my books, I don’t think you will find the W&C
act on the net in its original form, it’s quite a complicated act and
very long winded so people just quote the relevant parts. I believe you
can buy the act in it’s entirety from HM stationers for a nominal sum.

Derry, I have some interesting wire here (stainless steel as used in
proofing) which would make excellent fox snares and some thin stuff
which would make the fastest rabbit snares money could buy. If it’s of
any use to you, I’ll save up enough to make it worth the hassle and send
it up to you.

John
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

In article <Xns95D0E201D19DEOEcopyremovedheaders@130.133.1.4>, John
<deerstalker@gmail.com> writes
>Derry Argue <derry(delete)@adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in
>news:Xns95D0E1B529C40derryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4:
>
>> "Andy www.ukrabbiter.co.uk" <andy@ukrabbiter.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:33lst7F42fb3nU1@individual.net:
>>
>>> http://www.naturenet.net/law/wca.html
>>>
>>
>> Yes, many thanks but I found that one, but it is not the Act. I
>> need to see the original text, not an interpretation.
>
>Derry, I searched through my books, I don't think you will find the W&C
>act on the net in its original form, it's quite a complicated act and
>very long winded so people just quote the relevant parts. I believe you
>can buy the act in it's entirety from HM stationers for a nominal sum.
>
Go to:

http://www.tso.co.uk/bookshop/bookstore.asp

and put "Wildlife and Countryside 1981" in the Search box. The Act
itself is ISBN: 0105469815 and costs £13.45. However, be warned that
there have been nearly a dozen statutory instruments since, adding or
deleting species from the different Schedules. These tend to be between
£3.00 and £6.00 each.

--
Alec
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Alec <A@mao.me.uk> wrote in news:eUV2zUtHNm1BFwUc@indaal.demon.co.uk:

>
> In article <Xns95D0E201D19DEOEcopyremovedheaders@130.133.1.4>, John
> <deerstalker@gmail.com> writes
>>Derry Argue <derry(delete)@adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in
>>news:Xns95D0E1B529C40derryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4:
>>
>>> "Andy www.ukrabbiter.co.uk" <andy@ukrabbiter.co.uk> wrote in
>>> news:33lst7F42fb3nU1@individual.net:
>>>
>>>> http://www.naturenet.net/law/wca.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, many thanks but I found that one, but it is not the Act. I
>>> need to see the original text, not an interpretation.
>>
>>Derry, I searched through my books, I don’t think you will find the
>>W&C act on the net in its original form, it’s quite a complicated
>>act and very long winded so people just quote the relevant parts. I
>>believe you can buy the act in it’s entirety from HM stationers for
>>a nominal sum.
>>
> Go to:
>
> http://www.tso.co.uk/bookshop/bookstore.asp
>
> and put "Wildlife and Countryside 1981" in the Search box. The Act
> itself is ISBN: 0105469815 and costs £13.45. However, be warned that
> there have been nearly a dozen statutory instruments since, adding or
> deleting species from the different Schedules. These tend to be
> between £3.00 and £6.00 each.

I think (but I could easily stand to be corrected) the copy from HM
stationers comes with the additional amendments.

John
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

In message <Xns95D15E043FFDBOEcopyremovedheaders@130.133.1.4>, John
<deerstalker@gmail.com> writes
>Alec <A@mao.me.uk> wrote in news:eUV2zUtHNm1BFwUc@indaal.demon.co.uk:
>
>>
>> In article <Xns95D0E201D19DEOEcopyremovedheaders@130.133.1.4>, John
>> <deerstalker@gmail.com> writes
>>>Derry Argue <derry(delete)@adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in
>>>news:Xns95D0E1B529C40derryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4:
>>>
>>>> "Andy www.ukrabbiter.co.uk" <andy@ukrabbiter.co.uk> wrote in
>>>> news:33lst7F42fb3nU1@individual.net:
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.naturenet.net/law/wca.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, many thanks but I found that one, but it is not the Act. I
>>>> need to see the original text, not an interpretation.
>>>
>>>Derry, I searched through my books, I don't think you will find the
>>>W&C act on the net in its original form, it's quite a complicated
>>>act and very long winded so people just quote the relevant parts. I
>>>believe you can buy the act in it's entirety from HM stationers for
>>>a nominal sum.
>>>
>> Go to:
>>
>> http://www.tso.co.uk/bookshop/bookstore.asp
>>
>> and put "Wildlife and Countryside 1981" in the Search box. The Act
>> itself is ISBN: 0105469815 and costs £13.45. However, be warned that
>> there have been nearly a dozen statutory instruments since, adding or
>> deleting species from the different Schedules. These tend to be
>> between £3.00 and £6.00 each.
>
>I think (but I could easily stand to be corrected) the copy from HM
>stationers comes with the additional amendments.
>
So you don't think they try to squeeze as much money as possible out of
the poor unsuspecting punter? Hmm....

--
Alec
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

John <deerstalker@gmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns95D0E201D19DEOEcopyremovedheaders@130.133.1.4:

> I don’t think you will
> find the W&C act on the net in its original form, it’s
> quite a complicated act and very long winded so people just
> quote the relevant parts. I believe you can buy the act in
> it’s entirety from HM stationers for a nominal sum.

John,

That is my point. I trained as a surveyor and it is one of the
basic rules that you never use someone else's datum (level) if
you can go back to source, i.e. OS trig point! This needs to be
applied to the law, especially over such a fine point as to
whether the law actually says "sound recorder" or "tape
recorder". I know I am being pedantic, but that is the nature of
the law.

>
> Derry, I have some interesting wire here (stainless steel
> as used in proofing) which would make excellent fox snares
> and some thin stuff which would make the fastest rabbit
> snares money could buy. If it’s of any use to you, I’ll
> save up enough to make it worth the hassle and send it up
> to you.
>
> John
>
That is very kind. Last season we tried running the shoot on a
commercial basis but it did not really work. I doubt if I broke
even. At that time, I spent a couple of hours every day going
around fox snares. This season we have kept it to ourselves and
I have not snared a single fox. But I did annihilate the rabbits
(almost totally!) by sitting in the Land Rover in the evening
with a good book at the .22! Any rabbit that poked its nose out
within 80 yards was dead. That, and myxy, wiped them out! I
still have fox snares out and it is just a question of going
around and setting them up. I don't really need any more. But it
is very kind of you to think of me and I am most grateful!

Derry
 
Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (More info?)

Derry Argue <derry(delete)@adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in
news:Xns95D16B033D099derryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4:

> That is my point. I trained as a surveyor and it is one of the
> basic rules that you never use someone else's datum (level) if
> you can go back to source, i.e. OS trig point! This needs to be
> applied to the law, especially over such a fine point as to
> whether the law actually says "sound recorder" or "tape
> recorder". I know I am being pedantic, but that is the nature of
> the law.

I don’t think you are being pedantic at all. The truth of the matter is
that a big difference exists between “sound recordings” and actual “Tape
recordings”.
If I can recall correctly there is a set of legislative laws that
actually refers to the use of “Tape recordings” but the exact
legislation evades me.
In any case, the use of “sound recordings” isn’t illegal for use on fox
but the methods to obtain these sounds can be scrutinised by other
legislation.
My understanding of the law, is that it is perfectly legal for a person
to use an artificial sound recorded to attract foxes but again, the
description “Tape recording” starts to ring alarm bells, so you are not
alone in your take.
I know that it is illegal to use any form of recording on birds, deer
and section 6 animals.

> is very kind of you to think of me and I am most grateful!

No problem, just keep it in mind, indeed if anyone else produces their
own snares, then just let me know and you’ll also be welcome to some
free wire.

John
 
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