Furnace Dragon and Neurok Transmuter

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

I used Tooth and Nail with entwine and I put in play a Rhox and a
Furnace Dragon.
My son used Neurok Transmuter to let my Rhox become an artifact and
being removed from the game by the Furnace Dragon.

Is this right?

Neurok Transmuter
2U
Edition: DS
U : Target creature becomes an artifact in addition to its other types
until end of turn.
U : Until end of turn, target artifact creature becomes blue and isn't
an artifact.

Furnace Dragon
6RRR
Edition: DS
Affinity for artifacts (This spell costs less to play for each
artifact you control.)
Flying
When Furnace Dragon comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
remove all artifacts from the game.

Tooth and Nail
5GG
Edition: MD
Choose one - Search your library for up to two creature cards, reveal
them, put them into your hand, then shuffle your library
or put up to two creature cards from your hand into play.
Entwine 2 (Choose both if you pay the entwine cost.)


TIA
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sesto Pompeo <sestopompeo@iname.com> sent:
> I used Tooth and Nail with entwine and I put in play a Rhox and a
> Furnace Dragon.
> My son used Neurok Transmuter to let my Rhox become an artifact and
> being removed from the game by the Furnace Dragon.

> Is this right?

Neurok Transmuter {2}{U} Creature -- Human Wizard 2/2
/ {U}: Target creature becomes an artifact in addition to its other
types until end of turn.
/ {U}: Until end of turn, target artifact creature becomes blue and
isn't an artifact.

Furnace Dragon {6}{R}{R}{R} Creature -- Dragon 5/5
/ Affinity for artifacts
/ Flying
/ When Furnace Dragon comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
remove all artifacts from the game.

Tooth and Nail {5}{G}{G} Sorcery
/ Choose one -- Search your library for up to two creature cards,
reveal them, put them into your hand, then shuffle your library; or
put up to two creature cards from your hand into play.
/ Entwine {2}

This would work fine, if the Furnace Dragon didn't say 'if you played
it from your hand'. This additional stipulation stops the Dragon from
triggering unless you play the Dragon as a spell from your hand. Tooth
and Nail puts the Dragon into play directly from your hand - it doesn't
go through the steps of playing the Dragon it as a spell.

Assume that you searched for the Rhox and the Dragon but only put the
Rhox into play using Tooth and Nail. The Dragon will still be in your
hand, and you can now play it as a spell. When it comes into play, its
ability will trigger and go on the stack. When you pass priority to
your opponent, they will be free to play the Transmuter ability and
turn the Rhox into a nice green lumpy artifact until end of turn. That
resolves, then (assuming no other abilities are played) the Furnace
Dragon's triggered ability resolves and removes the Rhox, and all the
other artifacts, from the game.

--
-- zoe - who hopes she's read all the cards right this time
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sesto Pompeo, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> I used Tooth and Nail with entwine and I put in play a Rhox and a
> Furnace Dragon.
> My son used Neurok Transmuter to let my Rhox become an artifact and
> being removed from the game by the Furnace Dragon.
>
> Is this right?

No, because the Furnace Dragon wasn't played from your hand.
Confusingly enough, "play" and "put into play" do not mean the same
thing; "play" is a very specific term of art that means playing in the
normal fashion, generally by paying the mana cost. So the Furnace
Dragon's ability never triggers, so what your son does here accomplishes
nothing since no artifacts are going anywhere in the first place.

> Neurok Transmuter
> 2U
> Edition: DS
> U : Target creature becomes an artifact in addition to its other types
> until end of turn.
> U : Until end of turn, target artifact creature becomes blue and isn't
> an artifact.
>
> Furnace Dragon
> 6RRR
> Edition: DS
> Affinity for artifacts (This spell costs less to play for each
> artifact you control.)
> Flying
> When Furnace Dragon comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
> remove all artifacts from the game.
>
> Tooth and Nail
> 5GG
> Edition: MD
> Choose one - Search your library for up to two creature cards, reveal
> them, put them into your hand, then shuffle your library
> or put up to two creature cards from your hand into play.
> Entwine 2 (Choose both if you pay the entwine cost.)
>
>
> TIA
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 1 Jun 2004 15:03:32 GMT, Zoe Stephenson <zrs1@uk.ac.york.reversed>
wrote:

> Furnace Dragon {6}{R}{R}{R} Creature -- Dragon 5/5
>/ Affinity for artifacts
>/ Flying
>/ When Furnace Dragon comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
> remove all artifacts from the game.

>Assume that you searched for the Rhox and the Dragon but only put the
>Rhox into play using Tooth and Nail. The Dragon will still be in your
>hand, and you can now play it as a spell. When it comes into play, its
>ability will trigger and go on the stack. When you pass priority to
>your opponent, they will be free to play the Transmuter ability and
>turn the Rhox into a nice green lumpy artifact until end of turn. That
>resolves, then (assuming no other abilities are played) the Furnace
>Dragon's triggered ability resolves and removes the Rhox, and all the
>other artifacts, from the game.

I just wanted to point out that, for a mere U extra, you could also
turn the Furnace Dragon into an artifact - and then it would remove
itself from the game as well... :)

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

>> Tooth and Nail {5}{G}{G} Sorcery
>>/ Choose one -- Search your library for up to two creature cards,
>> reveal them, put them into your hand, then shuffle your library; or
>> put up to two creature cards from your hand into play.
>>/ Entwine {2}
>
>This would work fine, if the Furnace Dragon didn't say 'if you played
>it from your hand'. This additional stipulation stops the Dragon from
>triggering unless you play the Dragon as a spell from your hand. Tooth
>and Nail puts the Dragon into play directly from your hand - it doesn't
>go through the steps of playing the Dragon it as a spell.
>

Thank you very much for the answer.

But Tooth and Nail says: "or put up to two creature cards from your
hand into play".

You mean that Furnace Dragon ability of removing artifacts don't
trigger if played thanks to Tooth and Nail?

Isn't it played from my hand (even if thanks to Tooth and Nail)?

TIA
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Aradia <aradia@dsfvsdfb.it> wrote:

> But Tooth and Nail says: "or put up to two creature cards from your
> hand into play".

Exactly. Not "or play up to two creature cards."

> You mean that Furnace Dragon ability of removing artifacts don't
> trigger if played thanks to Tooth and Nail?

There is no "played thanks to Tooth and Nail".

Put Into Play
If an effect instructs a player to put an object into play, that object
is not considered "played."

> Isn't it played from my hand (even if thanks to Tooth and Nail)?

It wasn't "played".
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

>I just wanted to point out that, for a mere U extra, you could also
>turn the Furnace Dragon into an artifact - and then it would remove
>itself from the game as well... :)

Now my son knows this other trick ;-)

He thanks you 🙂
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:20:48 -0500, panoptes@iquest.net (Daniel W.
Johnson) wrote:

>Aradia <aradia@dsfvsdfb.it> wrote:
>
>> But Tooth and Nail says: "or put up to two creature cards from your
>> hand into play".
>
>Exactly. Not "or play up to two creature cards."
>
>> You mean that Furnace Dragon ability of removing artifacts don't
>> trigger if played thanks to Tooth and Nail?
>
>There is no "played thanks to Tooth and Nail".
>
>Put Into Play
>If an effect instructs a player to put an object into play, that object
>is not considered "played."
>
>> Isn't it played from my hand (even if thanks to Tooth and Nail)?
>
>It wasn't "played".

Thank you
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Aradia <aradia@dsfvsdfb.it> sent:
>>> Tooth and Nail {5}{G}{G} Sorcery
>>>/ Choose one -- Search your library for up to two creature cards,
>>> reveal them, put them into your hand, then shuffle your library; or
>>> put up to two creature cards from your hand into play.
>>>/ Entwine {2}
>>
>>This would work fine, if the Furnace Dragon didn't say 'if you played
>>it from your hand'. This additional stipulation stops the Dragon from
>>triggering unless you play the Dragon as a spell from your hand. Tooth
>>and Nail puts the Dragon into play directly from your hand - it doesn't
>>go through the steps of playing the Dragon it as a spell.
>>

> Thank you very much for the answer.

> But Tooth and Nail says: "or put up to two creature cards from your
> hand into play".

> You mean that Furnace Dragon ability of removing artifacts don't
> trigger if played thanks to Tooth and Nail?

When a Magic card refers to a player 'playing' a card it means either
play ("cast") as a spell from your hand using the normal system of
priority and announcement, or playing a land from your hand as you
normally get to do once per turn. It doesn't refer to other ways that
cards are used in the game.

When you're resolving Tooth and Nail, and putting the Furnace Dragon
into play from your hand, that's not the same as casting a Furnace
Dragon. Normally you would put the Furnace Dragon spell on the stack
and pay its cost, and then later on it resolves and puts itself into
play. That isn't happening when you use Tooth and Nail. With Tooth
and Nail you're putting the Tooth and Nail on the stack, and later
that resolves and tells you to just put the creature card straight
into play, no worries about stacks and costs or what have you.

> Isn't it played from my hand (even if thanks to Tooth and Nail)?

It came into play from your hand. It wasn't played (as a spell) from
your hand. It's a small difference in the text, but a very big
difference in what happens in the game.

--
-- zoe
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sesto Pompeo <sestopompeo@iname.com> writes:
[Regarding Furnace Dragon]
>>> Isn't it played from my hand (even if thanks to Tooth and Nail)?
>>
>>It came into play from your hand. It wasn't played (as a spell) from
>>your hand. It's a small difference in the text, but a very big
>>difference in what happens in the game.
>
> And if I put in play a Vampiric Spirit in this way I lose 4 life?
>
> And if I put in play a Primeval Force I must sacrifice 3 forests?

Yes. And yes. Those don't say "if you played it from your hand" like
Furnace Dragon does. Very few comes-into-play triggers say it that
way, but Furnace Dragon is one of them.

--
Peter C.
"When you personally get an IP address, it's time to let go of the wire."
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

>> Isn't it played from my hand (even if thanks to Tooth and Nail)?
>
>It came into play from your hand. It wasn't played (as a spell) from
>your hand. It's a small difference in the text, but a very big
>difference in what happens in the game.

And if I put in play a Vampiric Spirit in this way I lose 4 life?

And if I put in play a Primeval Force I must sacrifice 3 forests?

Card : Vampiric Spirit
Cost : 2BB
Type : Creature - Spirit
Power : 4/3
Wording : Flying (This creature can't be blocked except by creatures
with flying.) When Vampiric Spirit comes into play, you lose 4 life.

Card : Primeval Force
Cost : 2GGG
Type : Creature - Elemental
Power : 8/8
Wording : When Primeval Force comes into play, sacrifice it unless you
sacrifice three Forests.

TIA
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:01:03 +0200, Sesto Pompeo <sestopompeo@iname.com> wrote:
>I used Tooth and Nail with entwine and I put in play a Rhox and a
>Furnace Dragon.
>My son used Neurok Transmuter to let my Rhox become an artifact and
>being removed from the game by the Furnace Dragon.

That's fine, yes. Assuming he responded to the Furnace Dragon's triggered
ability with the NT ability, of course.

>Neurok Transmuter >2U
>U : Target creature becomes an artifact in addition to its other types
>until end of turn. / U : Until end of turn, target artifact creature becomes
> blue and isn't an artifact.

He can also use the second ability in response to the Furnace Dragon's
triggered ability, to save one or more of his own artifact creatures from
being removed later when the FD ability resolves.

>Furnace Dragon >6RRR
>Affinity for artifacts (*),Flying
>When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
>remove all artifacts from the game.

That last ability of the three is a triggered ability, since it starts with
"when", "whenever", or "at". It doesn't and can't make mana, so isn't a
triggered -mana- ability... so uses the stack. So it can be responded to.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Zoe Stephenson <zrs1@uk.ac.york.reversed> wrote:
> Furnace Dragon {6}{R}{R}{R} Creature -- Dragon 5/5
>/ Affinity for artifacts,Flying
>/ When ~ comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
> remove all artifacts from the game.
>
>This would work fine, if the Furnace Dragon didn't say 'if you played
>it from your hand'. This additional stipulation stops the Dragon from
>triggering unless you play the Dragon as a spell from your hand. Tooth
>and Nail puts the Dragon into play directly from your hand - it doesn't
>go through the steps of playing the Dragon it as a spell.

Grrr. I must be Reading Too Fast today, or something; I swear I -read- that
ability while composing my reply, just to make absolutely sure it was
triggered. So modify my answer to "Yes, he can use the NT ability ... but
not in response to the Furnace Dragon ability, which doesn't trigger at all
in this scenario, and thus making the Rhox into an artifact after they both
come into play doesn't make a difference (and neither does making his own
artifact creatures into non-artifacts with the NT's _other_ ability).".

Will try to read slower for the rest of the posts.

>Assume that you searched for the Rhox and the Dragon but only put the
>Rhox into play using Tooth and Nail. The Dragon will still be in your
>hand, and you can now play it as a spell. When it comes into play, its
>ability will trigger and go on the stack. When you pass priority to
>your opponent, they will be free to play the Transmuter ability and
>turn the Rhox into a nice green lumpy artifact until end of turn. That
>resolves, then (assuming no other abilities are played) the Furnace
>Dragon's triggered ability resolves and removes the Rhox, and all the
>other artifacts, from the game.

Of course, it would be even better to -also- turn the FD itself into an
artifact, which he can do if he has UU available; use the ability once
on the Rhox and again on the Dragon. Presto, _both_ fall victim to the
ability.

>--
> -- zoe - who hopes she's read all the cards right this time

Dave "you're doing better than I, so far today" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Aradia <aradia@dsfvsdfb.it> wrote:
>But Tooth and Nail says: "or put up to two creature cards from your
>hand into play".

Right.

>You mean that Furnace Dragon ability of removing artifacts don't
>trigger if played thanks to Tooth and Nail?

You can't "play it thanks to Tooth and Nail". Tooth and Nail does not cause
any creature spell to be _played_ in any way at all: playing a spell means
CASTING the spell.

Tooth and Nail says to -put- creature cards -into play-; to take them from
somewhere and put them directly into the in-play zone. No spell is cast in
the process (Tooth and Nail is itself a spell, and got cast, but it does not
cause any NEW spell to get cast when it resolves); no creature card(s) get
put onto the stack or resolve off of the stack. A card or cards got put
from your hand into play... which has nothing to do with "playing a spell"
in any way.

Short form: do NOT confuse "put into play" with any version of "playing".

>Isn't it played from my hand (even if thanks to Tooth and Nail)?

Nope. It is -put into play- from your hand. It was not cast as a spell, so
wasn't "played". Similarly, putting a land card into play is not the same
as your special one-per-turn action of "playing a land".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 13:44:28 +0200, Sesto Pompeo <sestopompeo@iname.com> wrote:
>>> Isn't it played from my hand (even if thanks to Tooth and Nail)?
>>
>>It came into play from your hand. It wasn't played (as a spell) from
>>your hand. It's a small difference in the text, but a very big
>>difference in what happens in the game.
>
>And if I put in play a Vampiric Spirit in this way I lose 4 life?

Yes; that doesn't say anything about "if you +played+ it from your hand". It
just triggers any time it comes into play by any means (*).

>And if I put in play a Primeval Force I must sacrifice 3 forests?

Yes; that doesn't say anything about "if you +played+ it from your hand". It
just triggers any time it comes into play by any means (*).

Dave "(*) except for phasing in from the phased-out zone, which as always is
An Exception" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sesto Pompeo <sestopompeo@iname.com> sent:
>>> Isn't it played from my hand (even if thanks to Tooth and Nail)?
>>
>>It came into play from your hand. It wasn't played (as a spell) from
>>your hand. It's a small difference in the text, but a very big
>>difference in what happens in the game.

Just to refresh the memory, here's Tooth and Nail and Furnace Dragon again:

Tooth and Nail {5}{G}{G} Sorcery
/ Choose one -- Search your library for up to two creature cards,
reveal them, put them into your hand, then shuffle your library; or
put up to two creature cards from your hand into play.
/ Entwine {2}

Furnace Dragon {6}{R}{R}{R} Creature -- Dragon 5/5
/ Affinity for artifacts
/ Flying
/ When Furnace Dragon comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
remove all artifacts from the game.

> And if I put in play a Vampiric Spirit in this way I lose 4 life?

Vampiric Spirit {2}{B}{B} Creature -- Spirit 4/3
/ Flying
/ When Vampiric Spirit comes into play, you lose 4 life.

Yes. Compare this ability with the ability on Furnace Dragon. The
ability on Vampire Spirit doesn't say 'if you played it from your
hand', so it doesn't check for that condition. It only checks to see
if it came into play. Which it did - it was at one point not in play,
and the very next moment it was in play, so the ability triggers.

> And if I put in play a Primeval Force I must sacrifice 3 forests?

Primeval Force {2}{G}{G}{G} Creature -- Elemental 8/8
/ When Primeval Force comes into play, sacrifice it unless you
sacrifice three Forests.

Yes, the triggered ability triggers, because even though Tooth and Nail
is putting it into play from your hand, the ability on Primeval Force
doesn't stipulate that it only triggers on coming into play in a
particular way. Any way it comes into play*, the ability triggers, and
you sacrifice either three forests or the Primeval Force.

--
-- zoe * except for phasing in, which is Different.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

> Tooth and Nail {5}{G}{G} Sorcery
> / Choose one -- Search your library for up to two creature cards,
> reveal them, put them into your hand, then shuffle your library; or
> put up to two creature cards from your hand into play.
> / Entwine {2}
>
> Furnace Dragon {6}{R}{R}{R} Creature -- Dragon 5/5
> / Affinity for artifacts
> / Flying
> / When Furnace Dragon comes into play, if you played it from your hand,
> remove all artifacts from the game.
>
> Vampiric Spirit {2}{B}{B} Creature -- Spirit 4/3
> / Flying
> / When Vampiric Spirit comes into play, you lose 4 life.

This is going to sound dumb, but did you add the slashes, or did you find a
source that put them in there nicely? One of the things that drives me
crazy about the card lists and/or oracle is that an ability wrapping a line
isn't necessarily distinguishable from a second ability, at least in any
automated way.

So, I was wondering...
Peter
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Risser Family <news@nospam.com> wrote:
>This is going to sound dumb, but did you add the slashes, or did you find a
>source that put them in there nicely? One of the things that drives me
>crazy about the card lists and/or oracle is that an ability wrapping a line
>isn't necessarily distinguishable from a second ability, at least in any
>automated way.

If she's got a script that does that for her, it's her own. Note that in
Oracle-as-given on the WotC pages? Each ability -is- actually on its own line
(which may be much more than 80 characters wide). Try grabbing the text version
of Oracle, and looking at it with word-wrap _off_, to see what I mean.

If I'm doing cardtext listings myself, I always put in my own slashes (and ~s
also).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Risser Family <news@nospam.com> sent:
>> Vampiric Spirit {2}{B}{B} Creature -- Spirit 4/3
>> / Flying
>> / When Vampiric Spirit comes into play, you lose 4 life.

> This is going to sound dumb, but did you add the slashes, or did you find a
> source that put them in there nicely?

I used to have a script that did similar formatting, but it involved
all sorts of weird and wonderful databases. I've been meaning to
create a simple standalone system to create the information on the
fly, and as soon as I've done so the world is welcome to it. In the
meantime, I'm getting the effect I want with a combination of copy
and paste and existing UNIX formatting commands.

> One of the things that drives me
> crazy about the card lists and/or oracle is that an ability wrapping a line
> isn't necessarily distinguishable from a second ability, at least in any
> automated way.

Well, the kind folks at WotC do provide a text-only Oracle in a one-
element-per-line form at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/oracle
- you just have to make sure you get to format it yourself before your
editor-of-choice breaks the lines for you.

--
-- zoe
 
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