Game created for timely players

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Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

With a nod toward the "Online Diplomacy -- A Losing Proposition"
thread:

I've also gotten very tired of being in games where players are
habitually late. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way, so
I've created a game for players who are serious about moving the game
along. The game is timely01 on US0S -- gunboat, white/grey press,
72/24. There are also a few parameters and house rules to keep it
moving, with the most significant being: every player gets one, and
only one, chance to be late. Any player late a second time will be
ejected.

The full game description is at
http://www.diplom.org/openings/j37/timely01.game.html. Anyone willing
to make the commitment to get moves in on time is welcome to join!
For questions, please email me at the address listed in the game
description (NOT the return address of this post, which is a spam
dead-end).

If this format works out well, I'll create more like it. If nobody
joins the game, I'll assume the rules were too strict.

Regards,
Martin Moore
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Martin Moore wrote:

> With a nod toward the "Online Diplomacy -- A Losing Proposition"
> thread:
>
> I've also gotten very tired of being in games where players are
> habitually late. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way, so
> I've created a game for players who are serious about moving the game
> along. The game is timely01 on US0S -- gunboat, white/grey press,
> 72/24. There are also a few parameters and house rules to keep it
> moving, with the most significant being: every player gets one, and
> only one, chance to be late. Any player late a second time will be
> ejected.
>
> The full game description is at
> http://www.diplom.org/openings/j37/timely01.game.html. Anyone willing
> to make the commitment to get moves in on time is welcome to join!
> For questions, please email me at the address listed in the game
> description (NOT the return address of this post, which is a spam
> dead-end).
>
> If this format works out well, I'll create more like it. If nobody
> joins the game, I'll assume the rules were too strict.
>
> Regards,
> Martin Moore

One possible way to reduce lateness would be to develop a system where
(on a one week deadline) players must submit conditional moves within
24-48 hours of adjudication. I often find I get results, plan out moves
then forget about them during the week until moments before/after the
deadline. Forcing the players to submit provisionals straight away means
they need to follow up on the Diplomacy and submit proper orders.

Dan
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Martin Moore wrote:
> With a nod toward the "Online Diplomacy -- A Losing Proposition"
> thread:

> I've also gotten very tired of being in games where players are
> habitually late. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way, so
> I've created a game for players who are serious about moving the game
> along. The game is timely01 on US0S -- gunboat, white/grey press,
> 72/24. There are also a few parameters and house rules to keep it
> moving, with the most significant being: every player gets one, and
> only one, chance to be late. Any player late a second time will be
> ejected.

Wow. This is, I think, too extreme. I'd hate to lose an ally whom
I had a good relationship with just because he submitted orders
5 minutes late on two occasions.

A better way to accomplish this in a press game is to set:

SET NO LATE PRESS

Anyone who is late with their orders cannot send press.

SET MUST ORDER

You must have orders for all Units in, (you can Set Wait), before
you can send press. This means anyone involved in the game will
have orders in on time. Then I could see ejecting anyone who was
late twice, since they had demonstrated a clear lack of commitment
to the game.

Eric.
--
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Dan Marchant <reply.via@forum.please> writes:

> One possible way to reduce lateness would be to develop a system where
> (on a one week deadline) players must submit conditional moves within
> 24-48 hours of adjudication. I often find I get results, plan out
> moves then forget about them during the week until moments
> before/after the deadline. Forcing the players to submit provisionals
> straight away means they need to follow up on the Diplomacy and submit
> proper orders.

It's already possible in njudge to require players to send in a complete
set of orders (possible with SET WAIT), before being able to send
press. I've just played one game with that setting, but it seemed to
work pretty well.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

A better way to keep a game moving, and yet not penalize a player for
connection problems due to weather, etc. (like 3 hurricanes in one month!)
is to follow Rob Farley's example. He created a pair of games on different
judges, each with an on-time rating requirement of .950 or better.

Of course, it took over a month to get the players, but even the "silent"
ones are on time with their orders. With "standard" deadlines and grace
periods, there is plenty of time for negotiations and mind-changing.


"Martin Moore" <mjm214@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:f5c064be.0409140456.472cab94@posting.google.com...
> With a nod toward the "Online Diplomacy -- A Losing Proposition"
> thread:
>
> I've also gotten very tired of being in games where players are
> habitually late. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way, so
> I've created a game for players who are serious about moving the game
> along. The game is timely01 on US0S -- gunboat, white/grey press,
> 72/24. There are also a few parameters and house rules to keep it
> moving, with the most significant being: every player gets one, and
> only one, chance to be late. Any player late a second time will be
> ejected.
>
> The full game description is at
> http://www.diplom.org/openings/j37/timely01.game.html. Anyone willing
> to make the commitment to get moves in on time is welcome to join!
> For questions, please email me at the address listed in the game
> description (NOT the return address of this post, which is a spam
> dead-end).
>
> If this format works out well, I'll create more like it. If nobody
> joins the game, I'll assume the rules were too strict.
>
> Regards,
> Martin Moore
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

I'm happy to create some more high on-time ratio games if you want.

As has been pointed out (sorry, I read on a free news-server, but have
to post through google), the problem is that a lot of people intend to
do well, but don't actually match that with their actions. By using
0.95 or 0.98 for a game, it means that you do actually find people
that are basically never late. I combine this with a dedication of at
least 30 or so, so that they can't just get in with one move on time.

Of course, if people do have a bad run, it wrecks their plans for the
future. I tend to adjust the rating temporarily for people that say
"You can check all the judges to see that my rating on
USIN/USOS/wherever is not usual." Send: infoplayer robjfarley at
domain yahoo dot co dot uk" (replacing the words for the email
address, obviously), to almost all the judges, and you'll quickly get
a feel for how on-time I am. Do this for people that ask you to join,
and you can work out who you accept or not.

Or set up a judge of your own, like USVG, that only accepts certain
addresses. Then let people apply for membership, so that you say "Your
combined total across judges USIN/USOS/USTX/USVG/etc must be at least
X moves, with an overall on-time ratio of at least 0.9" or something.
You could call it USRI and make it the Rhode Island Group, or whatever
is appropriate. :) That way, you could let people stay in if they just
had a bad run, or you could make exceptions when you consider it's
appropriate. Or you could kick people out of the group if they are
consistently worse than they promised...

If you don't want to host a judge yourself, you could probably ask
Dave Kleimans, Alain Tesio or Millis Miller for ideas as to where to
host such a judge. USVG is on thekleimans, same as USIN. But Doug
Massey has the ability to add/remove addresses to the list, and he
could probably advise you on how to restrict access to 'on-time'
players. It could challenge USVG for the most popular community in the
njudge system.

RobF
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:05:35 -0400, "Eric Hunter"
<hunter90@comcast.not> wrote:

>Martin Moore wrote:
>> With a nod toward the "Online Diplomacy -- A Losing Proposition"
>> thread:
>
>> I've also gotten very tired of being in games where players are
>> habitually late. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way, so
>> I've created a game for players who are serious about moving the game
>> along. The game is timely01 on US0S -- gunboat, white/grey press,
>> 72/24. There are also a few parameters and house rules to keep it
>> moving, with the most significant being: every player gets one, and
>> only one, chance to be late. Any player late a second time will be
>> ejected.
>
>Wow. This is, I think, too extreme. I'd hate to lose an ally whom
>I had a good relationship with just because he submitted orders
>5 minutes late on two occasions.

As long as the people joining the game know what they're getting into,
what's the problem? I think it is a good thing to have a variety of
options out there.

Tim
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

news@9oakhill.com (Tim Goodwin) writes:

> As long as the people joining the game know what they're getting into,
> what's the problem? I think it is a good thing to have a variety of
> options out there.

There could be a problem with people who think they are more timely than
they really are. I know some of those people myself. I even know
Diplomacy players like that. :-/

That should be taken care of by strict requirements for joining, of
course.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Björn Lindström wrote:
> Dan Marchant <reply.via@forum.please> writes:
>
>
>>One possible way to reduce lateness would be to develop a system where
>>(on a one week deadline) players must submit conditional moves within
>>24-48 hours of adjudication. I often find I get results, plan out
>>moves then forget about them during the week until moments
>>before/after the deadline. Forcing the players to submit provisionals
>>straight away means they need to follow up on the Diplomacy and submit
>>proper orders.
>
>
> It's already possible in njudge to require players to send in a complete
> set of orders (possible with SET WAIT), before being able to send
> press. I've just played one game with that setting, but it seemed to
> work pretty well.

I've never really understood why this isn't the case normally - the
benefits far outweigh the negatives in my view. It takes no time at all
to rattle off some kind of sensible set of moves, at the same time as
sending press. It wouldn't totally eliminate the problem, as you'd still
get the odd occasion where someone is late with a retreat or something
similar (those are the kind of lates I tend to slip up on, rather than
full movement deadlines)

The only downside I can see is if there is some weird problem with your
moves that the judge keeps throwing error flags on, but that should be
resolvable. Oh, and perhaps the instance where a player submits initial
moves, then is legitimately unexpectedly out of touch, e.g. due to
hurricanes etc, and the moves process with his original moves before
he/she can get back online to alter them - would be difficult to arrange
a rollback even in these circumstances. But IMHO I'm not sure how often
this would happen, compared to the benefits to the judge-based hobby in
general of having moves processing on time.

My £0.02.

Alastair
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Eric Hunter wrote:

> A better way to accomplish this in a press game is to set:
>
> SET NO LATE PRESS
>
> Anyone who is late with their orders cannot send press.
>
> SET MUST ORDER
>
> You must have orders for all Units in, (you can Set Wait), before
> you can send press.

I've player a game with the MUST ORDER flag as well. I found it more
annoying then anything else. Neither of these flags are effective unless
the game is anonymous.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

In article <2qqmptF118d53U1@uni-berlin.de>, Alastair Tomlinson wrote:
> Björn Lindström wrote:
>>
>> It's already possible in njudge to require players to send in a complete
>> set of orders (possible with SET WAIT), before being able to send
>> press. I've just played one game with that setting, but it seemed to
>> work pretty well.
>
> I've never really understood why this isn't the case normally - the
> benefits far outweigh the negatives in my view. It takes no time at all
> to rattle off some kind of sensible set of moves, at the same time as
> sending press. It wouldn't totally eliminate the problem, as you'd still
> get the odd occasion where someone is late with a retreat or something
> similar (those are the kind of lates I tend to slip up on, rather than
> full movement deadlines)

Oddly enough, a lot of people seemed to be against the idea. I implemented
the flag (MUSTORDER) in the judge code a couple of years ago in response
to a request here on rgd, but it doesn't seem to get used as much as I
thought it might. I'm glad to hear that some people are actually getting
some use out of it!

I suspect that part of the problem is as you describe, that people don't
want to have a non-final set of moves in, in case they get knocked out by
severe connection problems or simply forget to update their moves. In
general, a lot of people, I think, see that lateness, within reason, is
less distracting than mistaked orders or having to get a replacement every
two seasons because somebosy violated a "2 strikes and you're out" late
rule.

FYI -- I wrote a program to take the plyrdata ratings and compute a
judge-wide ontime ratio -- for NZMB it's about 90.8% of moves are
submitted on time. This really isn't all that good.

-Tim Miller
 
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