News Gamers Rejoice! Ethereum Reminds GPU Miners the End Is Near

husker

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I'm just a casual observer, but if you remove the energy hog of Proof Of Work (POW) and replace it with a more efficient Proof Of State (POS) technology, it raises 2 big questions in my mind:
  1. Would hackers still have to spend the incredible amount of energy required (e.g. 51% of the network) to hack the blockchain?
  2. Would the "perceived" value of the crypto-coin remain as high if the amount of effort (energy) required to add to the blockchain goes down? No huge energy requirement = no huge perceived value.
My thoughts may be the equivalent of thinking like a 3 year old, but taking a step back and looking at the big picture isn't a bad idea.
 

jonathan1683

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They can move to other coins, but other coins don't have the value ETH does and there will be a displacement of a petahash of power turned over to less valuable coins which will, in turn, make them less profitable to mine. All in all, it's a very good step I think to help ease the demand. Anything could happen though.
 
And even if you remove GPU mining anyway, video cards are still hot commodity items and it won't remove the fact that scalpers will buy them all up the moment they can to turn it around for a profit. This has been a problem well before crypto was on most people's radar.
 
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daworstplaya

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They can move to other coins, but other coins don't have the value ETH does and there will be a displacement of a petahash of power turned over to less valuable coins which will, in turn, make them less profitable to mine. All in all, it's a very good step I think to help ease the demand. Anything could happen though.
Unless the "currency" they switch to mine using GPUs goes up in value BECAUSE they switched to it. Which would then make mining that new currency using GPUs profitable. Basically this entire ponzi scheme is based on hype and whatever the hype train moves to next is the one that has value. Nothing short of banning Cryto currencies will end this nightmare for gamers, IMHO.
 

escksu

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No, it doesnt work. There are already alt coins for mining. No doubt they aren't as profitable as eth. However, can still earn money.... Don't forget that eth was a new kid back then as well. Unless its losing money, pple will just mine another coin.

New coins are emerging all the time and once eth is no longer available for mining, pple will mine something else. Then simply just push up the value is its profitable....
 

DavidC1

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This article makes little sense.

The real reason for the supply chain is due to the endless lockdowns and the stupid mandates, because the whole world is turning authoritarian. The laying off of people plays a huge part as well.

Mining contributes to it but it's just an adder. It might slow down the increase but the trend is going to be higher and higher prices all across the board. So if you are upset about gaming GPUs being too expensive, what do you feel about higher food and gas prices?
 
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InvalidError

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I'm just a casual observer, but if you remove the energy hog of Proof Of Work (POW) and replace it with a more efficient Proof Of State (POS) technology, it raises 2 big questions in my mind:
  1. Would hackers still have to spend the incredible amount of energy required (e.g. 51% of the network) to hack the blockchain?
Hash rate is irrelevant in ETC 2.0: you stake ('bond') 32 ETC to become an ETC underwriter. Basically, you are putting down a ~100k$ ETC bond saying that you will faithfully execute legitimate ETC transactions under penalty of having your bond forfeit if you get caught using your stake to authenticate fake transactions.

Put another way, you pay 32 ETC to get a root certificate that enables you to sign transactions and earn transaction fees instead of using massive GPU-power. The more signing certificates you own, the more transaction fees you can earn since it increase the likelihood that transaction processing s will get assigned to one of your stakes.

In principle, unless you own a massive number of stakes, ETC 2.0 can run on a single cellphone.
 

felicityc

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This article makes little sense.

The real reason for the supply chain is due to the endless lockdowns and the stupid mandates, because the whole world is turning authoritarian. The laying off of people plays a huge part as well.

Mining contributes to it but it's just an adder. It might slow down the increase but the trend is going to be higher and higher prices all across the board. So if you are upset about gaming GPUs being too expensive, what do you feel about higher food and gas prices?
No it doesn't (edit: just realized this intro sentence makes no sense, so more like, No that's not the main reason, lol). However, the article is wrong it will stop all mining, of course.

The reason mining contributes so heavily into the price of GPUs is the ease at which a profit can be generated by the 30 series. If you look at prices in both 2017 and last year, you can see specifically how this works. The SAME arguments and same complaints were used in the parabolic rise in prices in 2017. The 1080 and 1080ti were groundbreaking in terms of increasing hashrate.

The 20 series was garbage, and didn't really improve much in that sense. (check both crypto and nvidia stock at 1080 release and 30 series release; it really didnt take long. at 20 series release, you can see a big down drop in both. it was disappointing in the extreme)

The 30 series is incredible. It's really a marvel of engineering, as much as we are accustomed to such things. A single 3080 (FHR) has the hashrate of several 1080s.

I tried mining casually last year (can't do it here much, electricity scales in cost) and I was making around $8 per day (possibly more had I ran it 24 hours, but undervolted) doing nothing. At that point, my 3080 was a low end model that cost me like $800 after shipping and tax, so... I would have made my money back in literally only 3 months. It is an investment -> profit thing. The sanctions and supply issues/semiconductor shortages also have a part, but the LACK of a crash in btc, unlike in 2017, has continued to see the used market being increasingly abused my miners. If you even check hardwareswap you can see people buying them up in the dozens, basically.

Have 100 GPUs and the electricity/setup to operate them? $8000 to get $80 a day. Add in electricity costs (which, btw, some places DO NOT have, a lot of places in china previously subsidized it, and in america some places do not), and maybe you can subtract 25% or 30% from the overall profit. (This was all last NOVEMBER, 2020, btw. Before crypto started its current cycle. no idea how it would go now, but mining pools tend to work in certain ways anyway)

So at a 3-4x price premium, that 'making investment back in 3 months' becomes 'making investment back in 1 year or longer'. With how ETH/BTC/etc operates in terms of price action, the risk of this increases. Because of how volatile crypto is, the possibility your investment will be worthless soon is very high. However, because of the lack of a real crash (60k -> 35k -> 60k is not a crash, just a large swing), the OVERALL volatility of crypto lowers. It appears much more appealing to continue to grow ones hashrate potential. Thus, GPU prices increase both to scarcity and this possibility.

It's basic market theory idk. It's pretty obvious to me.

"the world is becoming increasingly authoritarian"

Sorry but as long as capitalism exists it will always be this way, veiled under a thin cloak of lobbyist democracy. Your anger is misdirected.

And even if you remove GPU mining anyway, video cards are still hot commodity items and it won't remove the fact that scalpers will buy them all up the moment they can to turn it around for a profit. This has been a problem well before crypto was on most people's radar.
Most gamers refuse to buy at these prices. Demand is very low among gamers. If you remove the incentive of profit from miners by the purchase of these cards, demand will plummet because the investment is not worthwhile. Prices will drop because there is some supply, but the supply is taken by those looking NOT to scalp, but to invest.

EVGA just released a bunch on queue. I got one. Checked ebay/hardwareswap etc, lots of people flipping those for easy money, because it is. Those go not to gamers, because hardly anyone wants to drop $1800 or $1600 on a 3080 unless you can afford it anyway, but someone considering them an investment and not a consumer product WILL in fact spend that money if they believe the risk is worthwhile.
 
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hannibal

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Because demand is low. they can reduce production of GPUs... Wait, Nvidia already did reduce production so here we are!
Yeah... gamers will not rejoice for years. There is article in Toms hardware that TSMC predict that it can not full demand until at the end of 2024. So maybe 2025 we get cheaper gpus or MSRP is already high enough aka low end $500+, middle range $1500 that we can buy GPU at MSRP...
 

jonathan1683

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No, it doesnt work. There are already alt coins for mining. No doubt they aren't as profitable as eth. However, can still earn money.... Don't forget that eth was a new kid back then as well. Unless its losing money, pple will just mine another coin.

New coins are emerging all the time and once eth is no longer available for mining, pple will mine something else. Then simply just push up the value is its profitable....

Check this out, nothing comes close to the volume or size or hashpower of ETH. https://whattomine.com/

You can probably add all those coins together and they would still be smaller than ETH network. Just because there are new coins doesn't mean they will be worth mining. ETH moving to POS is a great thing it also paves the way for other projects to not be wasteful using POW it works for BTC because it's the king and asics run the network.
 
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VforV

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1. The moment ETH goes to POS it will drop in value a lot, there won't be not even close to as much interest in it as it is now, and they know it... that's why it won't come as soon as some people think. Most likely it will get delayed again and again.

2. If or when that happens the mining will divide between more than one alt coin, until one gets a bigger lead and becomes the "new ETH to mine" and the mining craze starts over.

3. Crypto will not be banned globally until "they" have the alternative One World Currency ready to replace everything. That will happen at some point, without question, it's in the plans.
 
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The Ethereum Foundation introduced the Kintsugi testnet so the community can “familiarize themselves with Ethereum in a post-merge context.”

Gamers Rejoice! Ethereum Reminds GPU Miners the End Is Near : Read more
I find myself stirring at 3:00 am, turning in my bed until alas I am drawn back to my computer. Still irked by a terribly written article I had read earlier in the day.

That article was the above mentioned; utter none sense about gamers and their plight to maintain control of GPU's. The author has no understanding of crypto. Perhaps a 1/10. The author uses combative tones of distress, lending credence to the suffering of nerds. This is all bullocks. Miners will continue to hoard GPU's long after ETH. ETH has almost nothing to do with mining other than it happens to be the most profitable coin right now. Let me blow your mind. I mine Ethereum I also mine Beam, Ravencoin, and zcash where I am paid in bitcoin. If you knew ANYTHING about mining, you would understand the product is no more than just a trendy digital doin.

I am also a gamer, and wow wouldn't you believe it, have never had trouble playing my video games. Nerds are not some pathetic group of children that is incapable of using any market place other than amazon or the local safeway. In fact, now that I say that. The author of this must be a woman because it can't imagine having to go out and try a little to get what you want. Obviously incapable of imagining the perseverance of nerds. Now let me tell you who WILL suffer, you, you because you are stupid, Mining capitalizes on that.
 
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Check this out, nothing comes close to the volume or size or hashpower of ETH. https://whattomine.com/

You can probably add all those coins together and they would still be smaller than ETH network. Just because there are new coins doesn't mean they will be worth mining. ETH moving to POS is a great thing it also paves the way for other projects to not be wasteful using POW it works for BTC because it's the king and asics run the network.
Yes, yes other coins come very close ETH.. boo
 
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Nightseer

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I got feeling that we may see miners just switch to something else abd that something else getting nice bump in value once miners are on it.

Also beside that, mining isn't the only issue, as much as many gamers want to believe really hard. Post pandemic demand spike insanity is very real and big part of it too. Don't get me wrong, if miners stop buying cards, that will help, I am just saying it won't fix the issue.

As for second favorite boogy man, scalpers, I don't think they will be as much of an issue. Since in many places, supply us not the issue. Locally I can walk in store right now and buy most of nVidias stack with few partner models of each card available. That is if I want to spend over 2x MSRP. And retail won't just drop prices instantly either, since they paid for more expensive supply. Plus as prices do start dropping more people will be givingn in and rather pay that lower amount over MSRP before cards in their beluef might spike again. Especially with people saving up more money during pandemic and being used to seeing those insane prices. For someone not in the know, 1,5x MSRP feels like great deal afer long time of 2x MSRP.
 

maik80

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I'm just a casual observer, but if you remove the energy hog of Proof Of Work (POW) and replace it with a more efficient Proof Of State (POS) technology, it raises 2 big questions in my mind:
  1. Would hackers still have to spend the incredible amount of energy required (e.g. 51% of the network) to hack the blockchain?
  2. Would the "perceived" value of the crypto-coin remain as high if the amount of effort (energy) required to add to the blockchain goes down? No huge energy requirement = no huge perceived value.
My thoughts may be the equivalent of thinking like a 3 year old, but taking a step back and looking at the big picture isn't a bad idea.
Excellent observation
 

Endymio

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Obviously in the short term, this change means lower GPU pricing, but in the long run, it is only bad news for gamers, not good. Removing a large segment of the customer base means less money devoted to R&D of new products, less economy of scale, and many other factors -- all of which benefit the gaming community at large.
 

Endymio

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  1. Would hackers still have to spend the incredible amount of energy required (e.g. 51% of the network) to hack the blockchain?
  2. Would the "perceived" value of the crypto-coin remain as high if the amount of effort (energy) required to add to the blockchain goes down? No huge energy requirement = no huge perceived value.
As another poster pointed out, the PoS model changes your point 1 objection from "incredible amount of energy" to "incredible amount of money".

As for objection 2, the value of crypto -- and indeed all currencies in general -- derives not from the energy required to mint them, but from their scarcity. It takes very little energy to print a $100 bill. If the government engaged in no restraint in printing them, they'd be utterly worthless. (and soon very well may be).
 
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InvalidError

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It takes very little energy to print a $100 bill. If the government engaged in no restraint in printing them, they'd be utterly worthless. (and soon very well may be).
Since some parts of the economy are allowed to be grossly over-leveraged, there are already billions of vaporware dollars that could cause economic collapse at any time. That is how the "little people" managed to catch short-trading hedge funds by the balls on AMC and GameSpot stocks. People found out hedge funds were borrowing shares, selling them, driving the prices down, buying them back and pocketing the difference in a particularly egregious manner, so people organized to soak up available shares to break the cycle and hedge funds got stuck having to cover their position at massively increased prices since the loose shares supply dried out.
 
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Endymio

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People found out hedge funds were borrowing shares, selling them, driving the prices down, buying them back and pocketing the difference in a particularly egregious manner, so people organized to soak up available shares to break the cycle and hedge funds got stuck
If you sell 100 shares of a stock, then repurchase them, the share price, after hysteresis, winds up exactly back where it finished. The belief that any investor can reliably engage in the cycle you describe is fallacious and, even if possible, would not be harmful to investors at large. Finally, I don't see the relevance to crypto here, as at present it lacks any largescale options market.
 

jacob249358

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This article makes little sense.

The real reason for the supply chain is due to the endless lockdowns and the stupid mandates, because the whole world is turning authoritarian. The laying off of people plays a huge part as well.

Mining contributes to it but it's just an adder. It might slow down the increase but the trend is going to be higher and higher prices all across the board. So if you are upset about gaming GPUs being too expensive, what do you feel about higher food and gas prices?
Food and gas prices didn't go up until joe Biden was elected. GPUs were before that. It's 2 separate things. One is from inflation the other one is because of mining.
note: not trying to get political its just part of the conversation
 

InvalidError

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If you sell 100 shares of a stock, then repurchase them, the share price, after hysteresis, winds up exactly back where it finished.
The way hedge funds were over-leveraging stocks is by borrowing shares from people who own them, selling them which lowers the value and induces more people into selling at lower prices, then buying those back to cover their position, rinse and repeat until the company goes bankrupt. Except that only works while hedge funds control most of the shares getting bought and sold as they effectively control market price. That is why they got screwed over so badly when a large enough number of outsiders jumped in.

Finally, I don't see the relevance to crypto here, as at present it lacks any largescale options market.
It had nothing to do with crypto, I was just saying that the economic system in general is already a house of cards. Most of the money in circulation today is debt rather than capital. With most transactions done by electronic bank account, the amount of money in circulation already isn't limited by what gets printed by federal banks.
 

jacob249358

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I find myself stirring at 3:00 am, turning in my bed until alas I am drawn back to my computer. Still irked by a terribly written article I had read earlier in the day.

That article was the above mentioned; utter none sense about gamers and their plight to maintain control of GPU's. The author has no understanding of crypto. Perhaps a 1/10. The author uses combative tones of distress, lending credence to the suffering of nerds. This is all bullocks. Miners will continue to hoard GPU's long after ETH. ETH has almost nothing to do with mining other than it happens to be the most profitable coin right now. Let me blow your mind. I mine Ethereum I also mine Beam, Ravencoin, and zcash where I am paid in bitcoin. If you knew ANYTHING about mining, you would understand the product is no more than just a trendy digital doin.

I am also a gamer, and wow wouldn't you believe it, have never had trouble playing my video games. Nerds are not some pathetic group of children that is incapable of using any market place other than amazon or the local safeway. In fact, now that I say that. The author of this must be a woman because it can't imagine having to go out and try a little to get what you want. Obviously incapable of imagining the perseverance of nerds. Now let me tell you who WILL suffer, you, you because you are stupid, Mining capitalizes on that.
Harsh but true. But eth is the main mining coin so I'm sure a lot of people would sell their cards but a lot of people would find something else to mine. I think this will help the used market and then the regular market might get cheaper by a little bit with lots of people just getting a used card rather than trying to geta new one.
 

Endymio

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The way hedge funds were over-leveraging stocks is by borrowing shares from people who own them, selling them which lowers the value and induces more people into selling at lower prices, then buying those back to cover their position, rinse and repeat until the company goes bankrupt.
Several large errors here. First, lowering a company's share price does not "bankrupt" it, nor indeed affect its financial statement directly in any manner. It may potentially lower its ability to borrow money against its own shares, but that's about it. Secondly, the cycle you describe has zero long-term effect on share price. Third, the short seller in question is not "buying those shares back". In an uncovered short, the seller does not own the underlying instrument. If the call is exercised, the seller purchases the stock for the first time. Fourth, if the seller in question bets wrongly, they lose their bet. The notion that any seller can repeatedly and reliably "force" short positions to be profitable is entirely mistaken.

These are not minor points. Once again: neither short selling, nor option trading in general, harms the companies involved. Nor does it harm "small investors". Unless you're attempting to bet on short-term market fluctuations, you're not affected by such transactions. Options trading increases overall liquidity and helps to signal longer-term price shifts: both benefits to the market at large.
 

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