Gifts Ungiven

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Gifts Ungiven is a card from Champions of Kamigawa that has been
previewed on magicthegathering.com.

Gifts Ungiven
3U
Instant
Search your library for four cards with different names and reveal them.
Target opponent chooses two of those cards. Put the chosen cars into
your graveyard and the rest into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

My question: Can you choose to find less than four cards? Could you,
for example, search for two cards, so that your opponent has to choose
both of them, and you essentially get a double Entomb for 3U?

Cheers,
Grant
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> writes:
> Gifts Ungiven is a card from Champions of Kamigawa that has been
> previewed on magicthegathering.com.
>
> Gifts Ungiven
> 3U
> Instant
> Search your library for four cards with different names and reveal
> them. Target opponent chooses two of those cards. Put the chosen
> cards into your graveyard and the rest into your hand. Then shuffle
> your library.
>
> My question: Can you choose to find less than four cards? Could you,
> for example, search for two cards, so that your opponent has to choose
> both of them, and you essentially get a double Entomb for 3U?

Only if your library has less than four cards.

When you are asked to search for something meeting a certain
characteristic (a green card, a basic land card, and so on), you are
not required to find it. (It would be difficult to enforce if you did,
since your opponent doesn't know what's in your library.) But if
you're just asked to find *a* card (or in this case, four cards), you
have to find them if your library contains enough cards. See the
Comp. Rules Glossary entry for "Search".

If there were only 2 cards in your library, your opponent would be
forced to pick them, and they would both end up in your graveyard.

--
Peter C.
"Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most
intriguing."
-- Data, "Haven", Star Trek, The Next Generation
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Gifts Ungiven is a card from Champions of Kamigawa that has been
>previewed on magicthegathering.com.
>
>Gifts Ungiven
>3U
>Instant
>Search your library for four cards with different names and reveal them.
> Target opponent chooses two of those cards. Put the chosen cars into
>your graveyard and the rest into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
>
>My question: Can you choose to find less than four cards? Could you,
>for example, search for two cards, so that your opponent has to choose
>both of them, and you essentially get a double Entomb for 3U?

Yes. You are not searching for "just four cards" here, you are searching for
four cards of a certain description ("with different names"). So you may fail
to find any or all of them. But as you note, this means you get fewer cards
in your hand; if you get three cards, two go to your graveyard and one to
your hand, while if you get one or two, they go to your graveyard (opponent's
"choice" is Hobson's choice there).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr. <pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org> wrote:
>Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> writes:
>> Gifts Ungiven >> 3U >> Instant
>> Search your library for four cards with different names and reveal
>> them. Target opponent chooses two of those cards. Put the chosen
>> cards into your graveyard and the rest into your hand. Then shuffle
>> your library.
>>
>> My question: Can you choose to find less than four cards? Could you,
>> for example, search for two cards, so that your opponent has to choose
>> both of them, and you essentially get a double Entomb for 3U?
>
>Only if your library has less than four cards.

Not correct.

>When you are asked to search for something meeting a certain
>characteristic (a green card, a basic land card, and so on), you are
>not required to find it. (It would be difficult to enforce if you did,
>since your opponent doesn't know what's in your library.) But if
>you're just asked to find *a* card (or in this case, four cards), you
>have to find them if your library contains enough cards. See the
>Comp. Rules Glossary entry for "Search".

Correct.

Now: what is Gifts Ungiven's wording? Is it "Search your library for four
cards. Your opponent chooses two of them without seeing them. Put..."

Or is it "Search your library for four cards _with different names_ and
_reveal them_? Your opponent..."?

You are searching here for cards with certain characteristics - namely (ha!),
no two of them can have the same name. So you can fail to find any or all
of the searched-for cards, as per "Search".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, David DeLaney wrote:

> Peter Cooper Jr. <pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org> wrote:
>> Grant Anderson <gpsanderson@hotmail.com> writes:
>>> Gifts Ungiven >> 3U >> Instant
>>> Search your library for four cards with different names and reveal
>>> them. Target opponent chooses two of those cards. Put the chosen
>>> cards into your graveyard and the rest into your hand. Then shuffle
>>> your library.
>>>
>>> My question: Can you choose to find less than four cards? Could you,
>>> for example, search for two cards, so that your opponent has to choose
>>> both of them, and you essentially get a double Entomb for 3U?
>>
>> Only if your library has less than four cards.
>
> Not correct.
>
>> When you are asked to search for something meeting a certain
>> characteristic (a green card, a basic land card, and so on), you are
>> not required to find it. (It would be difficult to enforce if you did,
>> since your opponent doesn't know what's in your library.) But if
>> you're just asked to find *a* card (or in this case, four cards), you
>> have to find them if your library contains enough cards. See the
>> Comp. Rules Glossary entry for "Search".
>
> Correct.
>
> Now: what is Gifts Ungiven's wording? Is it "Search your library for four
> cards. Your opponent chooses two of them without seeing them. Put..."
>
> Or is it "Search your library for four cards _with different names_ and
> _reveal them_? Your opponent..."?
>
> You are searching here for cards with certain characteristics - namely (ha!),
> no two of them can have the same name. So you can fail to find any or all
> of the searched-for cards, as per "Search".

Of course, technicaly, you can't fail to find at least one card.
This doesn't matter?

--

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, David DeLaney wrote:

> David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, David DeLaney wrote:
>>>> When you are asked to search for something meeting a certain
>>>> characteristic (a green card, a basic land card, and so on), you
>>>> are not required to find it. (It would be difficult to enforce if
>>>> you did, since your opponent doesn't know what's in your
>>>> library.) But if you're just asked to find *a* card (or in this
>>>> case, four cards), you have to find them if your library contains
>>>> enough cards. See the Comp. Rules Glossary entry for "Search".
>>>
>>> Correct.
>>>
>>> Now: what is Gifts Ungiven's wording? Is it "Search your library
>>> for four cards. Your opponent chooses two of them without seeing
>>> them. Put..."
>>>
>>> Or is it "Search your library for four cards _with different
>>> names_ and _reveal them_? Your opponent..."?
>>>
>>> You are searching here for cards with certain characteristics -
>>> namely (ha!), no two of them can have the same name. So you can
>>> fail to find any or all of the searched-for cards, as per
>>> "Search".
>>
>> Of course, technicaly, you can't fail to find at least one card.
>> This doesn't matter?
>
> You can fail to find _any or all_ of the four cards with a certain
> characteristic, that you're searching for. You can cast Gifts
> Ungiven and get nothing back at all, if you like, regardless of what
> is in your library.
>
> This is because you are NOT just searching for "four cards". If you
> were, then a) you couldn't fail to find them unless there were fewer
> than four in your library, and in that case you'd retrieve your
> whole library, and b) you would not have to REVEAL them to prove
> that they HAVE DIFFERENT NAMES.
>
> Since you're not just searching for "four cards", you have to reveal
> them, and you can get as many of the four or as few as you like,
> down to none at all.

Yeah, I understand that. But what I meant was that one single card always
'have different names'. So if you get only one card you certainly
don't fail.

--

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> writes:
> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, David DeLaney wrote:
>> Since you're not just searching for "four cards", you have to reveal
>> them, and you can get as many of the four or as few as you like,
>> down to none at all.
>
> Yeah, I understand that. But what I meant was that one single card always
> 'have different names'. So if you get only one card you certainly
> don't fail.

Well, for consistency's sake, if there's a characteristic that you're
looking for, you can choose not to find it. Even if the top card of
your library is revealed due to Future Sight and it's a basic land, if
you need to "search your library for a basic land card", you can
choose not to find one, even though your opponent can tell that there
has to be one in there.

Things get messy if you try to figure out "would the opponent have
enough information to determine whether or not a selection was
possible", based on what's revealed, what the opponent knows about the
deck, and so on. The approach of "if it's for something with a
characteristic, you can choose not to find it" seems best.

And thanks to David DeLaney for correcting my original answer. That'll
teach me to read the card next time. :)

--
Peter C.
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not
necessarily a good idea."
-- RFC 1925, "The Twelve Networking Truths", #3
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David de Kloet <dskloet@cs.vu.nl> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Sep 2004, David DeLaney wrote:
>>> When you are asked to search for something meeting a certain
>>> characteristic (a green card, a basic land card, and so on), you are
>>> not required to find it. (It would be difficult to enforce if you did,
>>> since your opponent doesn't know what's in your library.) But if
>>> you're just asked to find *a* card (or in this case, four cards), you
>>> have to find them if your library contains enough cards. See the
>>> Comp. Rules Glossary entry for "Search".
>>
>> Correct.
>>
>> Now: what is Gifts Ungiven's wording? Is it "Search your library for four
>> cards. Your opponent chooses two of them without seeing them. Put..."
>>
>> Or is it "Search your library for four cards _with different names_ and
>> _reveal them_? Your opponent..."?
>>
>> You are searching here for cards with certain characteristics - namely (ha!),
>> no two of them can have the same name. So you can fail to find any or all
>> of the searched-for cards, as per "Search".
>
>Of course, technicaly, you can't fail to find at least one card.
>This doesn't matter?

You can fail to find _any or all_ of the four cards with a certain
characteristic, that you're searching for. You can cast Gifts Ungiven and
get nothing back at all, if you like, regardless of what is in your library.

This is because you are NOT just searching for "four cards". If you were,
then a) you couldn't fail to find them unless there were fewer than four in
your library, and in that case you'd retrieve your whole library, and b) you
would not have to REVEAL them to prove that they HAVE DIFFERENT NAMES.

Since you're not just searching for "four cards", you have to reveal them,
and you can get as many of the four or as few as you like, down to none at all.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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