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Going Linux - Best way???

CompSci

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Just can't go Xp - with WPA - No Way!
Now what's the best way to go Linus quickly?
Have a xtra full box, with goodies...

The goal would be to get up a Linux box with network, web server and RDBMS relatively quickly. Money isn't really a problem, as it's probably best to a get a growth and development Linux platform started RIGHT! rather than cheap... ( I am an experienced, degreed computer pgmr, developer, MCSD and not bad with hardware). I understand a new platform(OS, Network, Compilers, Database, RDBMS, web server and dev tools) better get done right the first time or I'll constantly be replacin and going back...

Basicly the first big question is whick LINUX to start with? Man! There's a lot of em - RedHat, Caldera, SuSe, ..., and quite a few Free downloads... Looking at prices from CDW shows Linux ain't cheap( RedHat Pro V7.2 $169, Redhat Pro DataBase $1900+)... Then SuSE Linux 7.1 Pro is only $65.. What do ya really need?

Where's the reasonable starting place? Doe's it come with compilers, database and devtools!

Anybody with a good start plan would be appreicated!
Is a good ole PII450 box good enough to start with! Or should I throw a PII700 in it first...

Thankx, in Advance...
 

CompSci

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Also consider I pay over $2000/yr for my MSDN universal subscription. May seam a lot, but ya literally get EVERYTHING M$ makes...(OS's, Servers, Office Products, Databases, Devtools, Misc... with a year's worth of updates)
It's actually a Killer deal for dev shop or developer!

Anything like that for Linux platform??? The whole ball bame for serious developers?
 
G

Guest

Guest
You need Slackware Linux, Apache, and mySQL. It's just that simple. Time to setup the server: an afternoon. Time to develope your envisioned site: that's up to you. Cost to you: squat.
 

CompSci

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OK - But an afternoon to set up a server - yea sure!
It'l take me a week to read the doc and download. Like the A dir is Base system, D is Pgm Dev tools, and so on... Even with DSL I have a to download, organize, make boot floppies and CD's... Looks like a project in itself!!

MySql is kool, have already checked it out, can/will do...

How about Hardware support for Linux? The Slackware Project harwdare support didn't look too current - Like my Linksys NIC, and ATI Xpert wasn't listed...

How about buyin/installin SuSE Linux as a learning experience in prep for Slackware... SuSE lists supporting ALL hardware on my old box(LinkSYS NIC, ATi Xpert Vidio, old HP 8100 CD/RW Burner). And Suse says it has CD burnin software included! SuSE Personal is $35, SuSE Profrssional is $69.

Wouldn't if help to already have a Linux system up and runnin for the download and prep of a Slackware Linux box... Looks like I could literally just throw SuSe on an existing Win2k box(as Dual Boot). The SuSe website says SuSe Linux has an easy auto installation and auto-detection of hardware(and mine's listed) - and quite a few apps plus CD burn software... I think I might like to already being working in Linux environment to build another LINUX one, rather than covnersion to ISO formats from Windoze...

Wow, SuSe Linux, $35/$69 for Personal/Professional sure looks both cheap and cost effective compared to a couple a days of reading, then trial and error with SlackWare... Once I learn a little, know what I'm doin, then Slackware may well be way to proceed.

I think I'm going to go SuSE just for convienience and learnin! Check out www.Suse.com - Think I need anything more that the personal version? It might be a excellent $35 lesson to get started with...

What doya think?

And in general are executables compatable in Linux environments? Like will anything developed in Slackware Linux also run in SuSe, Redhat, Calderis, BSD, Etc... And would Slackware Dev Tools also run SuSE, Redhat,...

How Really OPEN is OPEN Source? As far as Apps, compliers, linkers, devtools go?
 
G

Guest

Guest
Download Slackware ISO, burn the image, boot the CD. It's that simple.
 

Red_Zealot

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Just hold on a sec...CompSci, you sound like you're new to Unix and Linux, yes?

I would really recommend you get RedHat or SuSE Linux, unless you're really unsure of yourself and have no idea what you're doing, then get Mandrake. Apache takes minutes to set up. I think Slackware is a little too difficult for you, plus, Slackware looks to be going under. Red Hat, SuSE, and Mandrake all have excellent hardware support. You will get all your hardware supported except for the modem.
Linux also has nice GUIs, too.
It really is free. (Odd concept to M$ people). You can literally go to the site, download 2 isos, burn 'em, and you'll have more software than you could possibly use. It really is free. But you may wanna look into a Server Version of RedHat, since it looks like you'd be more comfortable with the support that entails.

I urge you, as a first time user, to not go with Slackware.

"If you teach a child to read, then he or her will be able to pass a literacy test" - George W.
 

CompSci

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OK! Givin it a shot!
Found Slackware ISO images: www.linuxiso.org/slackware.html
There's 3 of em - install.iso, extra.iso, and source.iso
Am downloadin as we post! looks to be about 2 hr each...

Will try to brun and boot when done!!!

Till then, later...

I first found Slackware at www.slackware.com and it didn;t have ISO images... that was the problem, and apprehension per nasty lookin downloads...
 

CompSci

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Red - I agree, but I'm also fearless( Stupid too, I was even one of the OS/2 developers in Boca!) While i'm downloadin Slackware install.iso, I also have the backup plan for SuSE... I sorta like SuSE per recent IBM support for DB2 Universal Database!

Now you say it's free"! Even SuSE somewhere? And yes, for sure I don't know exactly what I'm doing! Ya have to start somewhere.

I had a friend back in OS2 and mid 90's and he loved UNIX and had Coherent Unix for Intel. It had everything, source, compilers, debug, web dev, the whole ball game... not a bad setup!

If I go for SuSE professional, Do i get the whole ball game like that also - Pro is 7 CD's!. Are all dev tools, source and everything included? $69 isn't really much...
 

CompSci

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Linux ain't Free or Easy...

Tried all day to download it...
1. Slackware - download 33Kb max/ keeps dying every 50M...
2. Redhat - max 8kb - 36hrs - too slow...
3. SuSE - Cant even find i386 ISO Images....

I can easily get a stable 200Kb download thru my DSL - But no Linux download server will keep it up... Don't have problem with reliable servers... If Linux wants real consideration as Win replacement they're gonna have to get it together!

Considering time and agrevation WASTED it's a lot better to just go buy it...

And WoW, even that's a bitch - My local CompUsa is sold out of SuSE Professional!!!

Oh well, tomorrow's another day...
 

kindlr

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If you're running a web server you might also be interested in a BSD variant. NetBSD will run on anything, OpenBSD is ultra-secure, and FreeBSD is optimized for i486's. They tend to be harder to learn than Linux (well, the easier distros, BSD and Slack are probably on the same level, I'm just now switching from Slack to BSD for the hell of it). Before the evil Linux-demons-from-heck kill me for mentioning BSD, I'm not saying one is better than the other, merely that he should check all his options before making a choice! *runs and hides from scary flying demons*

Me "I bought a TNT2 M64, the BIOS says its a Vanta"
IOMagic "Theyre the same card"
Me "Um, no"
 

CompSci

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Thanks, metalab.unc.edu may get me Redhat 7.2 tonite...
But it connects pretty slow - 19.7Kb for 9+ hrs per disk iso - grumble, grumble...

I'm spoiled! Have an IBM home worker in the house, and we keep Bell South on thieir toes denanding our DSL FAST and STABLE - cause IBM's payin for it and wants us online and on time! BEll South doesnt like it but they do keep us hot and available... How this for DSL..

Your download speed : 1027050 bps, or 1027 kbps.
Browsers would show : about a 125.3 k/sec transfer rate.
Your upload speed : 209643 bps, or 209 kbps.
Your connection rocks .. above the 1mbit barrier!

That's spoiled!
9 hours of download/disk - Ugly!

There's another CompUsa about 20 miles away that shows SuSE Pro in stock... Will Probably just drive down tomorow morn and do SuSE Pro. Reports and reviews say SuSE is a first class, profesional distribution...

Perhaps, Linux by tomorrow nite!
 

kindlr

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Compare the list of supported hardware in BSD to that of Linux which isn't listed as beta or experimental. There's not that much of a difference. If you want cutting edge technology go for Windows, if you want stability take your pick of the better license (thats what it comes down to in my mind)

Me "I bought a TNT2 M64, the BIOS says its a Vanta"
IOMagic "Theyre the same card"
Me "Um, no"
 

CompSci

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SuSE Linux up and postin!!!

T'was a bit if a bitch... old ATI(mach64) vidio card was a headache, install config wouldn't do it, had to install No X11, then come back with Sax2. Then then Net/DSL thru LAN and router gateway wasn't documented, more Trial and Error... But ya really don't understand till ya debug a bit - and I get here...

It's pretty slow but I'm up on an old P200, 64Meg , NIC only... Simple Config... And I don't really know what I'm doin... But i gott say:
SuSEE installs pretty good... Im Impressed... MAy really be a Win KIller...



Hasn't crashed yet...
Installed StarOffice..
Gotta get another browser on this, first thing - this Knoqueror ain't good - seams like it has no cache.

What's best browser for Linux?
 

CompSci

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What's this KDE desktop Manager that Suse throws into the install? It's a dog,a Sloooooooow dog... Gotta be a better one!

Boy, do I have a lotta readin to do! The default install did work right outa the box, KDE sortta resembels a Win dektop, but itssurely not a very optimal setup... 64Meg ram is low for sure, works the disk even switchin active window...

Soneone wanna tell me what I should be startin up?

(meanwhile I have a total PII450, Mobo & pasts layin around I better be gettin a case for! Definitely need more juice...)
 

Red_Zealot

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I prefer GNOME as my desktop.

You only have 64MB of RAM???

The BSD license allows theft. GPL doesn't. MS steals lots of BSD code (telnet comes to mind...).

"If you teach a child to read, then he or her will be able to pass a literacy test" - George W.
 

CompSci

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Yep, sadly, a P200 and 64M RAM... Gotta do something about that. But I ain't messin with a good box till I get a handle on Linux...

Have heard of GNOME. Gotta get a handle on this YaST2(Yet another Setup Program 2) and learm how to setup the config and packages installed. Defaults gave me KDE. Don't even know how to change to GNOME yet? Gotta read a bit!

Im sortta happy I can even work on this thing. Can get to to the NET, send and recieve Email, and use StarOffice... Not bad for 1 day and never doing Linux before...

I do have a problem somewhere, actuall 2 I know of...
1. It just poped me out of the Gui once - just pop, and right back to the text based logon - Oops - that ain't good...
2. When I logout of of KDE it goes gack to a GUI logon dialog - I never get option to Shutdowm. The doc say I should? Oh well, just let it get quiet and power off(and hope for the best)
Also get a Bind error on a DNS entry I trashed...

Will probably just do a clean install tomorrow and try to get GNOME as desk mgr...

Am outa here, later, aand Thankx...
 

kindlr

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Gnome and KDE are both too slow for my tastes, give WindowMaker a try. It takes a bit of manual configuration, but you're using Linux so you might as well get used to doing everything by hand ;).

Edit:
Not sure how to switch to gnome, but to switch to WindowMaker, go into your home directory and edit .xinitrc and replace the line that says something like "exec kde" with "exec wmaker", if you're not quite sure how to use vi yet, I'll do a step by step, looks like we're both online, so just post and I'll check back in a few minutes. I'd be surprised if SuSe didn't come with something to automatically switch though, even Slackware did although I found it after I figured it out manually :). Oh, and you better not be logged in as root under x.

Edit (again):
If you switched virtual terminals you would have popped out of the desktop. Not sure about the shutdown thing, but powering down like that is a bad idea with Linux, you can really mess up your file system. With Windows the FS is not good in the first place so it doesn't really matter. Not sure what would cause your problem, but you can always just turn the monitor off and leave it running, there's very few reasons to ever shut down a Linux box if you have APM enabled.
 

kindlr

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BSD doesn't permit theft, theft by definition isn't permitted. You're allowed to use code provided it's properly attributed, much like any literary paper I've ever written. Linux allows you to do the same and then makes you give away your work for nothing. BSD lets you take the code and make a better product, if it takes money from someone else, ya know what they'll do? They'll borrow your code right back and make something even better! If MS stole telnet code I wouldn't know, I'm only 18 so it was before my time. But hey, if it's properly attributed, it wasn't theft, it was legal, if it's not, take em to court (again). I'm for open source software, but only because I feel it will provide more innovation than if it wasn't, as well as protect against monopolies like Microsoft, in the end offering better products and prices to the consumer. I'm not going to let the GPL tell me I can't make a profit though, I'm not dropping $30k a year on education to go broke in 5 years. Sorry, that was my licensing rant, actually reading the GPL and being a Libertarian is bad for anger management :).

Me "I bought a TNT2 M64, the BIOS says its a Vanta"
IOMagic "Theyre the same card"
Me "Um, no"
 
G

Guest

Guest
<rant>
GPL doesn't make stop you making a buck from your code.

Most punters don't want to compile their new accounting software, so making the source code available (giving it away?) isn't a big deal for the average joe or their business.

If you write an app from scratch, by all means keep the source to yourself, and sell the binaries. your work = your money.

With community driven open-source projects, market forces (and reality) kick in - who's gonna pay for something they can download for free? Quite a few people, as it turns out. Issues such as support come up, along with customer driven improvments etc. Eg paying for a service and your time. Some of which wouldn't happen if the source wasn't available. Ever had a "maintenance" job to do where the source code has disappeared?

The way i see it, it's more like free as in speech - the beer is just a bonus (and a by-product of the development model often used)

I read a lot of people saying "I can't sell it". You usually can, but most of these people (and i'm not saying you're one) want a free lunch - take some exisiting code, tweak it, call it "your product" and flog it out the door.

I think the GPL tries to keep people a bit more honest than that. Having said that, I'm sure it happens more than we know.
</rant>

just my 2c...

btw: There's a Lesser GPL as well.


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by rjb263 on 11/09/01 10:36 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
 

CompSci

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Found the .xinitrc ...
And I get it! From here on it's all sparepaarts, script, guts and glue. And getting up to speed!

This P200's gotta go. It did establish to me that Linux is a realistic alternative, even on old and tired hardware. Now I'm off to get a case for the PII450, 256RAM and spare parts I have layin around. Might even get a PIII700 and crank it up to 933(I hear they go there easily). That outta give the juice to work with this platform seriously.

And I'm quite happy with SuSE, for now. From NOTHIN to a WORKIN WORKSTATION in a day, on sad box and and no Linux experience, ain't all that bad! Reviews said SuSE is perhaps the most professional distro out there. Looking at the .xinitrc shows me maybe so - it ain't hard coded!

*** Contents of .xinitct:
#!/bin/bash
#
# Sample .xinitrc for SuSE Linux
# This script is called from 'startx' when you start an X session
#

#
# In case everything goes wrong, we at least fall back to a plain xterm
#
failsafe="xterm -ls -T Failsave -geometry 80x24-0-0"
trap "exec $failsafe" EXIT SIGHUP SIGINT SIGPIPE SIGTERM SIGIO

#
# Some bash (1 and 2) settings to avoid trouble on a
# failed program call.
#
test -n "$BASH" && set +o posix
no_exit_on_failed_exec=1
type shopt > /dev/null 2>&1 && shopt -s execfail
set +e > /dev/null 2>&1

#
# This should be the default
#
export TERM=xterm

#
# choose a window manager
#
if test -n "$WINDOWMANAGER" ; then
WINDOWMANAGER=`type -p $WINDOWMANAGER`
fi
if test -z "$WINDOWMANAGER" ; then
if test -x /usr/X11R6/bin/kde ; then
WINDOWMANAGER=/usr/X11R6/bin/kde
elif test -x /usr/X11R6/bin/startkde ; then
WINDOWMANAGER=/usr/X11R6/bin/startkde
elif test -x /usr/X11R6/bin/fvwm2 ; then
WINDOWMANAGER=/usr/X11R6/bin/fvwm2
elif test -x /usr/X11R6/bin/wmlist ; then
for i in `/usr/X11R6/bin/wmlist` ; do
WINDOWMANAGER=`type -p $i`
test -n "$WINDOWMANAGER" && break
done
elif test -x /usr/X11R6/bin/twm ; then
WINDOWMANAGER=/usr/X11R6/bin/twm
fi
fi

if test -z "$WINDOWMANAGER" ; then
echo "Error: Unable to find a window manager. Please make sure you installed one!"
echo "Exiting..."
xmessage -timeout 10 -default okay -center -file - <<-EOF
Error: Unable to find a window manager. Please make sure you installed one!
Exiting...
EOF
exit 1
fi

#
# Load system and users resources if not already done
# (XSESSION_IS_UP set by xdm in $XLIBDIR/xdm/Xsession)
#
if test "$XSESSION_IS_UP" != "yes" ; then
XLIBDIR=/usr/X11R6/lib/X11
test -r $XLIBDIR/Xmodmap && xmodmap $XLIBDIR/Xmodmap
test -r $HOME/.Xmodmap && xmodmap $HOME/.Xmodmap
test -r $XLIBDIR/Xresources && xrdb -load -retain $XLIBDIR/Xresources
test -r $HOME/.Xdefaults && xrdb -I$HOME -merge $HOME/.Xdefaults
test -r $HOME/.Xresources && xrdb -I$HOME -merge $HOME/.Xresources
fi

# Start the XIM server
test -r $HOME/.xim && source $HOME/.xim

#
# Add your own lines here...
#


# day planer deamon
# pland &

#
# finally start the window manager
#
exec $WINDOWMANAGER

# call failsafe
exit 0
*** (lost some indentation in the paste)
I see what I gotta do!
Now off to buy some juice before I start breakin script.
Later...
 

kindlr

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"1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty; and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License along with the Program." Therein lies my major complaint with the GPL, one person buys it, and all his friends get it free legally. Thats a lot of money lost. Keep in mind that the average joe doesn't use Linux, and most people who do learn to compile pretty quickly. I'm not looking for a free lunch, and I don't want anyone else gettin one off me. I could make Kindle Linux in a couple hours, burn a few hundred CDs at negligible cost and be selling them for $10 the next day, almost no work needed, because of the GPL. Now if Linus wants me to profit by his work, he can do that, I'm not as generous. Oh, and under GPL you can't keep the source to yourself, it's gotta be public.

"Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service if you wish), !!that you receive source code or can get it if you want it!!, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things."

Me "I bought a TNT2 M64, the BIOS says its a Vanta"
IOMagic "Theyre the same card"
Me "Um, no"
 

HolyGrenade

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GPL is pretty sticky. Unless you're extremely careful, you use an extract from a GPLed piece of code, you're code is GPLed.


<font color=red><i>Poor is the pupil, who does not surpass his mentor</i> - Leonardo daVinci</font color=red>
 
G

Guest

Guest
Yes, that's true if you base your work on someone else's GPL'ed work, and I think that's fair enough.

That aside, what I'm saying is that you don't <i>have</i> to GPL all software that runs on Linux. By all means, write your (original) code, don't GPL it, and then only sell the binaries. The LGPL allows you to dynamically link your code to those libraries that use it.

IANAL, so I won't argue the specific points of the licences, but Section 3 covers options regarding redistribution, such as "written offer" of providing source, and there's (maybe) a subtle difference between "public" and "third-party"... etc.

It's not for everyone, or for every program, but it's good for what it was designed to do.
 

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