Google Now Laying Fiber for Super-Fast Internet

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Status
Not open for further replies.

blurr91

Distinguished
Jan 9, 2004
339
0
18,780
[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]We also have the among greatest dependencies on gasoline and similar fuels out of the advanced nations.We have among the most inefficient cars and the least number of alternative fuel cars.The grass really is greener on the other side.[/citation]

What's wrong with that? Oil is cheap. All other forms of energy are more expensive. It's stupid to pay more for less.

I don't want to pay more for less. Do you?
 


You're absolutely wrong. The reason we stay on oil is because of how expensive it is, it's not cheap. Other fuels, like hydrogen, solar, wind, etc. are much cheaper. Granted wind is limited in how much power it can provide, but hdrogen is extremely easy to use and so is solar. We could deploy solar power over huge areas and we finally have some projects that may do something here. Hydrogen, on the other hand, remains largely ignored regardless of the fact that it's absolutely everywhere and doesn't produce pollution. If you burn hydrogen you get water vapor.
 

blurr91

Distinguished
Jan 9, 2004
339
0
18,780
[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]You don't think they'd give the 1Gb connections out for free, do you?[/citation]

I don't know. Probably not. If they charge a price, what will that price be? If they charge a price that is lower than the competition, but needs money from other parts of their operation to subsidize it, then it's called "predatory pricing." Large companies usually get into trouble when they engage in this practice.

I personally have no problem with "predatory pricing" because the theory behind it is wrong. Comsumers get cheap stuff subsidized by money from other sources. The company will eventually abandon this practice because it simply doesn't work.

Google is up to something. Call me a cynic, but I don't like it when companies promise to give us the world for pennies.
 

GreaseMonkey_62

Distinguished
Jul 3, 2009
521
0
18,980


America is much larger geographically than many other countries. It means more investment from providers to lay better infrastructure and better connections. Unfortunately Time Warner, Cox and AT&T are more interested in selling their "packages" and TV service than in creating better infrastructure. It's going to take competition from things like this Google project to push the limit.
 

blurr91

Distinguished
Jan 9, 2004
339
0
18,780
[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]You're absolutely wrong. The reason we stay on oil is because of how expensive it is, it's not cheap. Other fuels, like hydrogen, solar, wind, etc. are much cheaper. Granted wind is limited in how much power it can provide, but ydrogen is extremely easy to use and so is solar. We could deploy solar power over huge areas and we finally have some projects that may do something here. Hydrogen, on the other hand, remains largely ignored regardless of the fact that it's absolutely everywhere and doesn't produce pollution. If you burn hydrogen you get water vapor.[/citation]
Other forms of energy appear to be "cheap" because government subsidize it. If they were truly economical, don't you think people would have tripped over themselves trying to make a buck?

Hydrogen is a horrible fuel. It takes more energy to creat it than we get out of it.

Solar is a bust. We've been promised solar energy for years and nothing came out of it. Don't believe me? Go to Newegg or Amazon and buy some solar panels to supplement your home use.

Wind requires gigantic wind farms and the power is sporatic. You would still need conventional powerplants to maintain the grid. Turning on and turning off a conventional generator is more expensive than just to leave it on.

Nuclear comes close. It's a constant source and the powergrid likes that.

Hydro is great, still more expensive, but we have mastered the technology. Unfortunately the needs of fish outweighs the needs of humans. So we are limited on that.
 

LukeCWM

Distinguished
Oct 5, 2011
146
0
18,680
[citation][nom]blurr91[/nom]I don't know. Probably not. If they charge a price, what will that price be? If they charge a price that is lower than the competition, but needs money from other parts of their operation to subsidize it, then it's called "predatory pricing." Large companies usually get into trouble when they engage in this practice.I personally have no problem with "predatory pricing" because the theory behind it is wrong. Comsumers get cheap stuff subsidized by money from other sources. The company will eventually abandon this practice because it simply doesn't work.Google is up to something. Call me a cynic, but I don't like it when companies promise to give us the world for pennies.[/citation]

Pardon my ignorance on this subject, but by your definition, wouldn't most of Google's business be based on "predatory pricing"? They don't make money from the users on Google Search or Gmail, but they are subsidized by advertising.

I'm watching the Android development with amusement. Its hooks are digging deeper and deeper into the consumer (I have an Android phone myself and love it). One of these days, after reaching even greater market penetration, Google is going to suddenly announce they'll be charging for Android. Won't the consumer be surprised!
 


Everyone replying to me about the larger size and lower population density of America is right, of course, but that's no excuse for how slow our speeds are. Even with that in mind we should have at least 32Mb connections more common, if not 50Mb or 64Mb. Like you said, we don't get that because we have ISP companies not upgrading infrastructure. I'm obviously not an expert here, but I read that fiber optic cables don't need to be upgraded to run faster connections, they just need the hardware on either side to be upgraded. If that's true then it would be much cheaper in the long run to use fiber optic cables until we can't ramp up their speed anymore.

I'm certain that if that's true then there is no excuse to not have at least somewhat faster connections to most of the USA than we have.
 


There are much better solar power technologies than offered to the public right now, several magnitudes more efficient. I pointed out that wind isn't a very good solution, but it can supplement power generation. Nuclear fission technology gives us spent fuel that's still radioactive for billions of years so I really don't like the idea of it going more widespread than it already is. Nuclear fusion may be better once we get it working right, but it doesn't provide more power than what is used to get the reactions last I checked.

Alternative fuels aren't cheap only because of subsidies. Oil companies kill many alternative fuel technologies that have any minute possibility of harming their profits. How many times have we seen good electric car technologies just disappear after oil companies buy out the companies that were developing them? It happens and then little to no news about it gets out.

Solar power only costs up-front money to get it deployed and then maintenance and it doesn't even use any fuels. The obvious problem is how much square footage is needed to be covered, but a few recent technologies and concepts helped that out. There's at least one sky-scraper design that surfaced in news stories last year that would be literally covered in solar panels and was able to power itself completely.
 

blurr91

Distinguished
Jan 9, 2004
339
0
18,780
[citation][nom]LukeCWM[/nom]Pardon my ignorance on this subject, but by your definition, wouldn't most of Google's business be based on "predatory pricing"? They don't make money from the users on Google Search or Gmail, but they are subsidized by advertising.I'm watching the Android development with amusement. Its hooks are digging deeper and deeper into the consumer (I have an Android phone myself and love it). One of these days, after reaching even greater market penetration, Google is going to suddenly announce they'll be charging for Android. Won't the consumer be surprised![/citation]

Advertising is OK. That's not subsidizing. What I mean by subsidizing is taking the money from your profitable division to prop up an unprofitable division, just so you can squeeze out your competitor in that field.
 

thrasher32

Distinguished
Sep 17, 2007
375
0
18,790
Why Kansas City? I mean I know why it's not NYC (never get an agreement with Con-Ed and the City), Los Angeles (Linemen don't wanna get killed) or Chicago (See LA), but Kansas City? Seems like an odd choice. Nothing against KC, it's a great town, but WHY?
 

blurr91

Distinguished
Jan 9, 2004
339
0
18,780
[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]There are much better solar power technologies than offered to the public right now, several magnitudes more efficient.[/citation]

OK, where are they? Efficient power source means money. Evil and greedy capitalists like money. Where are these solar technologies being used?

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]I pointed out that wind isn't a very good solution, but it can supplement power generation.[/citation]

Yes, it can. However it is very sporatic and power grids don't like that. The efficiency lost in unpredictable power offsets any savings from "free" power.

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]Nuclear fission technology gives us spent fuel that's still radioactive for billions of years so I really don't like the idea of it going more widespread than it already is. Nuclear fusion may be better once we get it working right, but it doesn't provide more power than what is used to get the reactions last I checked.[/citation]

Spent fuel will be reprocessed and reused. Theoretically there is no such thing as nuclear waste. Nuclear "waste" also doesn't stay radioactive for "billions of years." Chernobyl recovered much faster than what "scientists" thought it would. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are doing fine right now. You are buying too much into the scare tactics put out by the greenies.

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]Alternative fuels aren't cheap only because of subsidies. Oil companies kill many alternative fuel technologies that have any minute possibility of harming their profits. How many times have we seen good electric car technologies just disappear after oil companies buy out the companies that were developing them? It happens and then little to no news about it gets out.[/citation]

You may want to re-examine your conspiracy theory. Oil companies aren't just oil companies. They are energy companies out to make a profit. They will sell any form of energy that makes money. I'm serious. Take a look at all the electric cars that came to the market over the last 20 years. They went away because the consumers don't like them. They are expensive, short ranged, and inconvenient to refuel. GM EV1; Honda Insight (the original); Chevy Volt. Not many people bought them, and Volt isn't exactly an electric car, yet still no one bought it.

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]Solar power only costs up-front money to get it deployed and then maintenance and it doesn't even use any fuels. The obvious problem is how much square footage is needed to be covered, but a few recent technologies and concepts helped that out. There's at least one sky-scraper design that surfaced in news stories last year that would be literally covered in solar panels and was able to power itself completely.[/citation]

Solar is very maintenance intensive. Any dust on the panels will kill efficiency. Someone, most likely an expensive union labor, will have to constantly clean the panels (or reflectors) to make sure they operate at peak efficiency. Any type of overcast will also kill efficiency. We know for a fact solar doesn't work at night, so there goes at least 50% of our generator time. Really you are getting less than 30% of your return on investment: 50% down time due to night and 20% down time with maintenance and inclement weather.
 


Yes, greedy people like money, but never forget that they are often short-sighted. For example, media companies use DRM and scare tactics to try to stop piracy (in vain, I might add) instead of trying to work with or around it to make even more money. They don't just like money, they like power, and to have power they want other people to lose money.

It is true that solar can be high-maintenance, but there are definitely ways around that. Dust is easy to clean off and this cleaning can be automated cheaply. Of course, if something were to become damaged then human action may be necessary, but the same is true for any other power source.

I'm not being a conspiracy theorist by telling you what some companies have done. We all know that many companies, especially large companies, will engage in questionable and sometimes even illegal practices to try to get their way, often successfully. Would I be a conspiracy theorist for giving you a report on what all of the tech companies did to get where they are? For example, Bill Gates bought DOS from someone else for a few hundred dollars or so and then used it as a base to make himself a millionaire, then a billionaire later on.

How many technology companies have been ground into dust when they had products that would challenge larger companies? How about how after IBM came out with their computers so many decades ago, Compaq reverse-engineered them to make a complete clone of IBM's technology? And how many other companies did the same thing after Compaq opened the flood-gates to this practice until it was declared illegal? This crap goes on all the time. Acknowledging events that have been proven to have happened, regardless of how unsatisfactory they are, does not make me a conspiracy theorist.

We see less of this now, but it still goes on. We have smaller companies like AMD (whom was once part of IBM) for several reasons, not the least important of which are anti-trust laws and other things against having monopolies. AMD isn't innocent either, I'm just using it as an example.

Yes, the cars you listed suck. They use the same technology that some car manufacturers had back in the 70s and earlier, without many changes at all and that's part of why they can't work right and part of why they haven't been stopped by other companies. Tesla Motors has an electric vehicle that can go around 600 miles on a single charge, 300 miles per battery and you can have two batteries stacked to get 600 miles. That's not even the only good electric car to have been built, there were others that were stopped by car/oil companies. Sometimes electric motor technology was stopped even during conceptual stages in development.

Granted, there are problems right now such as very few charging stations, but that's not a fault of the technologies themselves.

As for reusing spent nuclear fuel, no... That doesn't work. After a few years of use, nuclear fuel (mostly uranium now, used to be plutonium) loses a majority of it's usable energy. Once it becomes less efficient to use the fuel it gets replaced with new fuel. This happens because of something called a half-life. That's the amount of time t takes for half of a sample of radioactive material to emit it's radiation and split into other elements. if it takes half an hour for half a sample of say, Uranium, to do this (it actually takes billions of years), then it takes the same amount of time for half of the remaining radioactive uranium to radiate, and so on.

Eventually the purity of the uranium fuel drops to the point where the amount of energy released in a given time is considered unacceptably low and it's replaced with purer fuel. A fission reactor speeds up the half life of radioactive material by injecting particles that impact radioactive elements and force them to radiate instead of waiting for their natural amount of time it would take to do this to come by. I'm not buying into eco-nuts propaganda, this is the truth. Most eco-nuts probably don't even know how this all works anyway, they just assume it's bad out of a lack of understanding. I studied nuclear fission and fusion for a while, I even went to an event at Fermi-lab and talked with nuclear physicists. They were pretty nice people, good at explaining this stuff.
 

back_by_demand

Splendid
BANNED
Jul 16, 2009
4,821
0
22,780
[citation][nom]MaddPuppy[/nom]True... But I would not trade it for being able to live in a WIDE open country like the USA. I have been to France, Italy,Malta,and Germany and IMO the people live on top of each other (like NYC)Not sure but I think Texas is as BIG as France. Retired USMC[/citation]
Because all of those countries are heavily built all over them with no wide open sparsely populated areas, whilst Texas is one giant open space with no bustling cities at all, right?
...
As a retired member of the USMC you should really have seen a lot more of these countries, maybe now you are retired you should go on a holiday to the Ruhr Valley, Foret de Compiegne or Palermo, the restaurants in Sicily are to die for, not literally of course.
 

SuperK86

Distinguished
Aug 25, 2006
59
0
18,630
EPB of Chattanooga already has a full fiber optics network for 2 years now. They offer 1gb speeds up and down as well. Currently I have a 30mbps up/down for less than 60, and 50 would only be 10 dollars more. What's even more is no throttling or blocking, EPB only blocks port 25 on SMTP. So... Google, you're a little late!
 

blurr91

Distinguished
Jan 9, 2004
339
0
18,780
[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]Yes, greedy people like money, but never forget that they are often short-sighted. For example, media companies use DRM and scare tactics to try to stop piracy (in vain, I might add) instead of trying to work with or around it to make even more money. They don't just like money, they like power, and to have power they want other people to lose money.[/citation]

So Google fits into this pattern...how? That's what I question. Google is an evil greedy business (nothing wrong with that). I just don't like it when people blindly worships Google as an altruistic entity out to make our lives better without seeking a return. We are all greedy. I want to be paid more. There's nothing wrong with that. But don't tell me I'm working for the good of mankind.

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]
It is true that solar can be high-maintenance, but there are definitely ways around that. Dust is easy to clean off and this cleaning can be automated cheaply. Of course, if something were to become damaged then human action may be necessary, but the same is true for any other power source.[/citation]

You have not addressed the inherent problem of solar plants sitting idle for more than 50% of the time. That means solar power plants need to generate twice the power as a regular power plant that burns oil or gas to be viable. The panels are maintenance intensive and lose efficiency over time.

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]
I'm not being a conspiracy theorist by telling you what some companies have done. We all know that many companies, especially large companies, will engage in questionable and sometimes even illegal practices to try to get their way, often successfully. Would I be a conspiracy theorist for giving you a report on what all of the tech companies did to get where they are? For example, Bill Gates bought DOS from someone else for a few hundred dollars or so and then used it as a base to make himself a millionaire, then a billionaire later on.How many technology companies have been ground into dust when they had products that would challenge larger companies? How about how after IBM came out with their computers so many decades ago, Compaq reverse-engineered them to make a complete clone of IBM's technology? And how many other companies did the same thing after Compaq opened the flood-gates to this practice until it was declared illegal? This crap goes on all the time. Acknowledging events that have been proven to have happened, regardless of how unsatisfactory they are, does not make me a conspiracy theorist.We see less of this now, but it still goes on. We have smaller companies like AMD (whom was once part of IBM) for several reasons, not the least important of which are anti-trust laws and other things against having monopolies. AMD isn't innocent either, I'm just using it as an example.[/citation]

So you would agree Google is probably up to something sinister with this project?

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]
Yes, the cars you listed suck. They use the same technology that some car manufacturers had back in the 70s and earlier, without many changes at all and that's part of why they can't work right and part of why they haven't been stopped by other companies. Tesla Motors has an electric vehicle that can go around 600 miles on a single charge, 300 miles per battery and you can have two batteries stacked to get 600 miles.[/citation]

And how much does a Tesla cost with this kind of technology, may I ask?

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]That's not even the only good electric car to have been built, there were others that were stopped by car/oil companies. Sometimes electric motor technology was stopped even during conceptual stages in development.Granted, there are problems right now such as very few charging stations, but that's not a fault of the technologies themselves.[/citation]

Car/oil companies stopped the development of electric technology? Where are the electric companies to fight back? Are they not big enough to take on the oil companies? Europeans have subsidized their alternative energy for decades and they have nothing to show for. They are paying a lot more for gasoline while enriching the pockets of the politically connected. Remember, industry likes power and control, but government is the ultimate power and control. Whatever the industry does, the government is far worse.

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]As for reusing spent nuclear fuel, no... That doesn't work. After a few years of use, nuclear fuel (mostly uranium now, used to be plutonium) loses a majority of it's usable energy. Once it becomes less efficient to use the fuel it gets replaced with new fuel. This happens because of something called a half-life. That's the amount of time t takes for half of a sample of radioactive material to emit it's radiation and split into other elements. if it takes half an hour for half a sample of say, Uranium, to do this (it actually takes billions of years), then it takes the same amount of time for half of the remaining radioactive uranium to radiate, and so on.Eventually the purity of the uranium fuel drops to the point where the amount of energy released in a given time is considered unacceptably low and it's replaced with purer fuel. A fission reactor speeds up the half life of radioactive material by injecting particles that impact radioactive elements and force them to radiate instead of waiting for their natural amount of time it would take to do this to come by. I'm not buying into eco-nuts propaganda, this is the truth. Most eco-nuts probably don't even know how this all works anyway, they just assume it's bad out of a lack of understanding. I studied nuclear fission and fusion for a while, I even went to an event at Fermi-lab and talked with nuclear physicists. They were pretty nice people, good at explaining this stuff.[/citation]

Nuclear power is still the cheapest form of energy next to fossil fuel. It's far cleaner. I agree with you that eventually nuclear fuel will be less efficient and need to be replaced with new fuel. So does all other form of energy. Solar panels will need to be replaced. Wind turbine will need to be replaced. Hydro is better, but the needs of the fish outweigh the needs of humams. Besides, we had a great nuclear waste disposal program ready in Yucca Mountain and someone, in his infinite wisdom, shut it down, after billions of dollars were already spent.
 

irh_1974

Distinguished
Jan 10, 2010
300
0
18,780
[citation][nom]blurr91[/nom]Nuclear comes close. It's a constant source and the powergrid likes that. Hydro is great, still more expensive, but we have mastered the technology[/citation]
Geography limits Hydro too, don't forget, damming up to force Hydro causes all kinds of problems unless you have lots of natural water power sources like the do in Switzerland
...
As far as nuclear goes there is another option that has been reported on a while ago, Thorium, way safer, cheaper and why aren't we building hundreds of them?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/02/01/china_thorium_bet/

 



I didn't address the problem with solar panels being down for the nights because I didn't think there was anything I could say to that because it's obviously true. Solar panels shouldn't need too much repair (depending on what panels they are, I've heard of crap ones that break to quickly) if the right ones are used in the right ways. I have some small panels that I've had for years and there's no damage on them at all, but I take care of them. There are high-efficiency panels that convert almost all of the sunlight hitting them into electricity and efficiency keeps increasing. I wouldn't say that 20% of the electricity that could be generated is wasted because of dust and such.

Besides that, there is no way that all solar panel technologies lose efficiency quickly. You mentioned them losing efficiency over time but did not mention anywhere near how long it takes to lose how much efficiency with what panel technologies.

I think that Google is one of the worst companies. They, like so many others, have destroyed privacy as much as they can in order to make greater profits. I don't know about Google being up to anything more sinister than their usual stunts, maybe they will monitor their customers of this program even more than they already do.

I don't remember how much a Tesla costs, but I'll admit they're expensive. If I had to guess I'd say around $50-$70 thousand USD each.

By inefficient over time, I meant over the course of a few years. Fuel is replaced over only several years, maybe up to a little under a decade. It's not to often, but it's often enough that, as you referenced, we considered filling an entire mountain with the waste in an effort to get rid of it. Of course we wouldn't fill the mountain with everything we have right now, but over time. It woulds still leak radiation to surrounding land even if the project had gone through, although probably not too much. If I remember correctly nuclear power plants don't leak much, if any radiation.

Yes, the government has the ultimate power to do as they wish and control anything they want too, but companies are nonetheless very powerful and often get the governments to do what they want them to do, or at least try.

To be honest, I liked your last comment much more than your previous comments, it seemed more thought out. To be honest, I do not consider myself greedy. If I could be a billionaire I'd need something reasonable to spend it on. Oh sure, I'd squander some of it on fun things, but I'm not very comfortable with even the idea of living in these huge mansions and having scores of cars, etc. I'd get a better house than the one I'm renting right now, and better computers, and start up a company or two, but I'm just not comfortable with hoarding money and valuables.

I could probably spend upwards of several million dollars, but even dozens or hundreds of millions of dollars to my name would just be too much without a serious purpose, a use for it. I'm honestly disgusted by the actions of these greedy people in our governments and businesses, I don't know how I'd spend most of my money if I was in their shoes, but I'd not be like them. I'd probably do something like help fund supercomputing programs for stuff like helping cancer, you know, charity stuff. I also have several ideas for websites that I'd like to see come to fruition.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Move to Chattanooga, TN. 1gb is already here, up and running. Fiber to the home compliments of EPB
 

neosporinme

Distinguished
Nov 11, 2011
8
0
18,510
Yea, I've had fiber internet for over a year now in Chattanooga, TN. EPB fiber has had the fastest internet in the nation, about time to get some competition in here :)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.